Valparaiso or Washburn (Kansas/Indiana insiders preferred) Forum

[ProspectiveStudent69]

Thanks for the help.. I'm going to just stick with Valparaiso for this first year. I'm actually from Iowa, but would go to Notre Dame if that would help me land a job in Chicago. I really want to get into Iowa or Drake though, since these schools are close to home. I'm thinking about doing the dual degree MBA so I can fall back on that if everything is going to be as gloomy as every makes it seem. For the record, I don't think anything is going to be easier for me than it would be for anyone else, however, I do have a lot of confidence in my abilities and drive. What is everyones take on investing spare loan money in some blue chip high-dividend yield/low volatility stocks?

[TheThriller]

Thanks for the help.. I'm going to just stick with Valparaiso for this first year. I'm actually from Iowa, but would go to Notre Dame if that would help me land a job in Chicago. I really want to get into Iowa or Drake though, since these schools are close to home. I'm thinking about doing the dual degree MBA so I can fall back on that if everything is going to be as gloomy as every makes it seem. For the record, I don't think anything is going to be easier for me than it would be for anyone else, however, I do have a lot of confidence in my abilities and drive. What is everyones take on investing spare loan money in some blue chip high-dividend yield/low volatility stocks?

It's even more foolish to get an MBA from this school. And I wouldn't invest your student loan money.

[Tiago Splitter]

Can't believe this troll got to page 2. Prospectivestudent69? Really?

[cinephile]

Graduating at 27 would be a far greater mistake than unemployment with 6 figures of non-dischargable debt. You're making great choices.

[ProspectiveStudent69]

I hope it works out. Thanks for all your help, even if it wasn't all that helpful lol.

[Ti Malice]

You'll see quite soon enough how helpful the advice here would have been had you not simply been seeking validation for objectively horrible ideas. Oh well. If someone is going to sign up for debt slavery, I'd prefer it be an idiot who encountered all of the information necessary to make an intelligent decision rather than an idiot who didn't do adequate research.

[jbagelboy]

Dude you're gonna do great. Don't listen to the h8t3rs, you got this. You'll be that transfer to .. one of those fantastic schools.. What is the collective wisdom of well educated and mostly well-intentioned members of the legal community worth anyway? Good advice is for pussies. Grad PLUS is basically free money, thats why no one worries about paying it back. Just go with your asinine gut -- ignorance is bliss, amirite?

[clay7676]

I want to add my own two cents here: I'm probably not an insider on this idea of "t-20 or bust" mentality, and while it makes a lot of sense, I don't think that should offset all other options. A lot of state schools are relatively cheap, especially if you are a resident. And smaller states (economically) who may not have many top-14 graduates, could very well use graduates of their state school and others, especially if your grades and class rank are exceptional. While these states may not offer the best option financially, they certainly warrant a brief glance. I certainly think tier 2, 3 private schools would be absurd (exceptions permitted). And yes, transferring is certainly an option. Though I haven't completely read your justification for why you can't take the LSAT again, I would reccomend it if you had any chance of taking it.

[jselson]

I want to add my own two cents here: I'm probably not an insider on this idea of "t-20 or bust" mentality, and while it makes a lot of sense, I don't think that should offset all other options. A lot of state schools are relatively cheap, especially if you are a resident. And smaller states (economically) who may not have many top-14 graduates, could very well use graduates of their state school and others, especially if your grades and class rank are exceptional. While these states may not offer the best option financially, they certainly warrant a brief glance. I certainly think tier 2, 3 private schools would be absurd (exceptions permitted). And yes, transferring is certainly an option. Though I haven't completely read your justification for why you can't take the LSAT again, I would reccomend it if you had any chance of taking it.

This is one of the most vapid posts I've ever seen on TLS.

[clay7676]

I want to add my own two cents here: I'm probably not an insider on this idea of "t-20 or bust" mentality, and while it makes a lot of sense, I don't think that should offset all other options. A lot of state schools are relatively cheap, especially if you are a resident. And smaller states (economically) who may not have many top-14 graduates, could very well use graduates of their state school and others, especially if your grades and class rank are exceptional. While these states may not offer the best option financially, they certainly warrant a brief glance. I certainly think tier 2, 3 private schools would be absurd (exceptions permitted). And yes, transferring is certainly an option. Though I haven't completely read your justification for why you can't take the LSAT again, I would reccomend it if you had any chance of taking it.

This is one of the most vapid posts I've ever seen on TLS.

thank you, what an honor it is to have "one of the most vapid posts". I am grateful for your insightful assessment of my post.

[timbs4339]

Retaking isn't an option, because I want to keep going to school without any sort of break. I would be 27 when I graduate, and I don't intend on being in school till that age. Sure I could just not go this year, but I have already payed a ton to apply to a load of schools, and have stopped studying for the LSAT for like 6 months. I'm sure working in a firm of 50+ attorneys would pay better, but people are still getting jobs with smaller firms and even in the public sector if they absolutely have to. When you graduate you have to take what you are given. It would be nice to go to a way better school, but at this point, I don't have that option or luxury and don't feel my score will get that much better with increased practice. I'm a good student, but for some reason I couldn't do well on the LSAT. Its a hard test. I'm very studious and will try my absolute best to be at the top, so I think that by second semester I should be able to go somewhere else. Transfer schools I will be applying to include but are not limited to: Iowa, Depaul, Loyola Chicago, Drake, and possibly some Texas Schools. Even if I don't have the best job when I graduate, it seems like you can use the small law firms or public sector as a jump off points to build some credentials and practical experience. Maybe I'm wrong. All I know is that if you do well in school and have a better grasp on the law than the people you are competing with for jobs, that should be more important than someones school rank. Someone could have graduated from Harvard or Yale and be socially inept and unable to use their knowledge in a practical setting. Everyone learns the same stuff their first year anyways, so I don't see how Valpo is going to make me look less deserving. Does transferring hurt your employment prospects or hurt your class rank when finishing at the transfer school? Valpo doesn't grade on a curve, which is different from many other ABA accredited law schools. I'm not going to retake.

This is wrong. 100% of it is wrong. You're not prepared to go this year.

[Snowboarder1588]

Is there a way for us to contact Val and Washburn on OPs behalf and let them know he wont be attending and will be retaking the LSAT because he is smarter than this?

[Mick Haller]

Let mooncalves be mooncalves

[banjo]

A small firm or public sector job isn't a fallback. I'm attending CCN and even I'm still worried that I'll miss out on a legal career altogether.

Really? This is dark.

Yeah, I am worried a little. There was this thread a couple years ago: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=170964. Hopefully things have gotten better.

Also, it looks like last year's OCI participants at CLS had about an 85% success rate: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p6180037. Some portion of those who strike out probably find something by graduation, but I've heard that people do graduate without jobs. Would love to hear that my fears are misplaced, though.

[ProspectiveStudent69]

If I want to be in debt and take my chances so be it. Maybe some day I'll come back here and tell you that you are right. I need to trust my gut on this and follow my instincts. I appreciate those individuals who gave advice in a non-condescending or sarcastic tone. I feel like there are a lot of insecure/ unhappy people who post in these forums. I wish you good luck, and will see you in the court room some day .

[Clearly]

If I want to be in debt and take my chances so be it. Maybe some day I'll come back here and tell you that you are right. I need to trust my gut on this and follow my instincts. I appreciate those individuals who gave advice in a non-condescending or sarcastic tone. I feel like there are a lot of insecure/ unhappy people who post in these forums. I wish you good luck, and will see you in the court room some day .

Statistically, you will not.

[timbs4339]

If I want to be in debt and take my chances so be it. Maybe some day I'll come back here and tell you that you are right. I need to trust my gut on this and follow my instincts. I appreciate those individuals who gave advice in a non-condescending or sarcastic tone. I feel like there are a lot of insecure/ unhappy people who post in these forums. I wish you good luck, and will see you in the court room some day .

Yeah, you're not special. This is called: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

Basically, you're choosing to be irrational.

[timbs4339]

A small firm or public sector job isn't a fallback. I'm attending CCN and even I'm still worried that I'll miss out on a legal career altogether.

Really? This is dark.

Yeah, I am worried a little. There was this thread a couple years ago: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=170964. Hopefully things have gotten better.

Also, it looks like last year's OCI participants at CLS had about an 85% success rate: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p6180037. Some portion of those who strike out probably find something by graduation, but I've heard that people do graduate without jobs. Would love to hear that my fears are misplaced, though.

As a c/o 2012 CLSer, yes, there are plenty of folks who have to take the 25K school fellowship. A non-negligible number.

[timmyd]

You sound a little bit like me. I took the LSAT once, got a 157 and would not take it again. I told myself that I would be fine going to a third tier school. I got extremely lucky and was able to transfer to UT. I was top 5.5% of my class. There is a 94.5% chance that you wont be able to transfer to anywhere worth transferring to. Actually, isn't Valpo tier 4? That just makes it even harder. I would retake. I hear that you can substantially increase your score. Trust me I wish I would have gone that route. Someone said it earlier, but you can study your balls off for one 3 hour exam, or you can study your balls off for 12 exams with little or no room for error....but everyone (including me) is a special snowflake.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

It's impossible to read these threads and not think at least SOME of America's income inequality is completely and totally justified, as well as think that some people are bound to fuck up their lives even when given every opportunity not to.

I need to trust my gut on this and follow my instincts.

I'm sure your traffic court clients will be thrilled to hear that you think major life decisions should be made with your intuition instead of a careful, reasoned interpretation of the facts.

Is it possible every traffic lawyer I know is like that because if they were capable of objective analysis, they'd have wound up somewhere better than traffic court?

[rickgrimes69]

Retaking isn't an option, because I want to keep going to school without any sort of break. I would be 27 when I graduate, and I don't intend on being in school till that age. Sure I could just not go this year, but I have already payed a ton to apply to a load of schools, and have stopped studying for the LSAT for like 6 months. I'm sure working in a firm of 50+ attorneys would pay better, but people are still getting jobs with smaller firms and even in the public sector if they absolutely have to. When you graduate you have to take what you are given. It would be nice to go to a way better school, but at this point, I don't have that option or luxury and don't feel my score will get that much better with increased practice. I'm a good student, but for some reason I couldn't do well on the LSAT. Its a hard test. I'm very studious and will try my absolute best to be at the top, so I think that by second semester I should be able to go somewhere else. Transfer schools I will be applying to include but are not limited to: Iowa, Depaul, Loyola Chicago, Drake, and possibly some Texas Schools. Even if I don't have the best job when I graduate, it seems like you can use the small law firms or public sector as a jump off points to build some credentials and practical experience. Maybe I'm wrong. All I know is that if you do well in school and have a better grasp on the law than the people you are competing with for jobs, that should be more important than someones school rank. Someone could have graduated from Harvard or Yale and be socially inept and unable to use their knowledge in a practical setting. Everyone learns the same stuff their first year anyways, so I don't see how Valpo is going to make me look less deserving. Does transferring hurt your employment prospects or hurt your class rank when finishing at the transfer school? Valpo doesn't grade on a curve, which is different from many other ABA accredited law schools. I'm not going to retake.

This is wrong. 100% of it is wrong. You're not prepared to go this year.

OP's logic explains the low LSAT score

[Ti Malice]

I want to add my own two cents here: I'm probably not an insider on this idea of "t-20 or bust" mentality, and while it makes a lot of sense, I don't think that should offset all other options.

No one here says otherwise. TLS will readily endorse someone's decision to take a full ride, or close to it, at a regional/local school with good placement that's located where he/she has ties and wants to work.

And yes, transferring is certainly an option.

Transferring is only possibly an option, not "certainly" an option. Chances of making any worthwhile move up from Valpo are about five percent, which means it's not even worth considering in advance of attending that dump.

[BigZuck]

I have a dilemma on my hands. I have been accepted to Valparaiso School of Law for quite some time and was fully prepared to attend, however, I have recently been accepted at Washburn Law. I received a 10k scholly from Valpo which brings tuiton to 28.5k. I don't know if Washburn is offering a scholly yet, but from the get go their tuition is like 29.4k for out of state and students have the ability to become a resident of Kansas by the second semester, thus making it like 18.8k. These price tags are just for tuition, which don't include all other expenses. It seems like Valparaiso is surrounded by a lot bigger legal markets (ie. Chicago/Indianapolis), while Washburn is situated in Topeka, which is around an hour drive from Kansas City. The living expenses seem to be relatively close, however, Washburn is further from my hometown. After doing a lot of research on both schools it appears Washburn has a better overall program and better employment/bar passage statistics. My question is, should I tough it out with my current school or take the risk and accept Washburn at last minute? Looking at in 162k in debt at Valpo is scary (before interest), so it would be nice to pay less, given that both these schools are in the 4th tier. My goal would be to transfer after the first year if I do well enough, but I want to be happy if I have to settle.

Please share if you have something valuable and insightful to offer. What I don't want is people telling me to retake or only go if its a full ride at HYS... I would really appreciate a rapid response from anyone who knows the legal markets and/or particular schools.

And we would have appreciated you not coming out guns blazing with a good old-fashioned preemptive ad hom but we didn't get that now did we?

Do whatever you want. Just in the future please don't ever ask someone advice about anything if you already have decided what you're going to do.

[rftdd888]

It's impossible to read these threads and not think at least SOME of America's income inequality is completely and totally justified, as well as think that some people are bound to fuck up their lives even when given every opportunity not to.

true dat. You like to be optimistic about things but it's true there are people out there who are always just...do you remember old cartoons wherein a character steps on a hoe/rake or something and it stands up and hits them square in the face? it's like people doing that over and over again walking into it

[MistakenGenius]

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