Texas $$ vs. NYU Sticker Forum

[utlaw2007]

A very big part of me feels like you shouldn't be doing either. NYU at sticker is something you should really only be doing if you are absolutely 100% certain you want to do public interest. 100% certain looks like, "I'd rather not go to law school at all if I can't do xyz public interest law." Not just making the world a "better place", but having a legitimate desire to influence or be a part of some specific greater legal movement as a whole.

On the other hand, Texas with 117k COA seems like a lot. Assuming that's everything included, that's going to end up being around 1,450k a month in payments, or 17k+ a year. There are plenty, plenty of legal jobs that are not worth the "privilege" of paying 17k a year to do. Unfortunately, UT only places about a third of its class in either biglaw or federal clerkships, From UT, there is a 58% chance of getting a job that is honestly not worth the luxury of 17k/yr payments (ranging from public interest, which was easier to get at NYU, to unemployment, which is significantly harder to get from NYU.)

I'd take the year off. Go work for a year, maybe retake the LSAT, and come back next cycle. You should probably be retaking a 169 regardless, honestly.

Side note: what kind of money did you get from Vandy and UMich?

I think people are underestimating just how low the cost of living is in Texas, especially Houston. I know people with that kind of debt that are doing just fine without biglaw jobs in Texas. The cost of living, including housing prices, are ridiculously low down here. People from all sorts of professions with advanced schooling have the same kind of debt, if not more, are doing just fine with mortgage payments without biglaw salaries. I am not saying that you will be living on easy street. But I am saying that 120K debt living in Texas without a biglaw salary is not as bad of a predicament as people here are suggesting.

[twenty]

I think people are underestimating just how low the cost of living is in Texas, especially Houston. I know people with that kind of debt that are doing just fine without biglaw jobs in Texas. The cost of living, including housing prices, are ridiculously low down here. People from all sorts of professions with advanced schooling have the same kind of debt, if not more, are doing just fine with mortgage payments without biglaw salaries. I am not saying that you will be living on easy street. But I am saying that 120K debt living in Texas without a biglaw salary is not as bad of a predicament as people here are suggesting.

I probably am underestimating just how low COL is, but I don't think that takes away from the fact that one "gets" to be an attorney for 17k a year for ten years. It may not be as bad of a predicament as, say, 120k debt in Washington D.C., but that certainly doesn't mean one should make a decision because the bad side isn't "as bad" as might have been originally assumed.

Again, not disagreeing with you. I'm sure you can live comfortably with 120k debt in Texas, but ideally OP could retake and have significantly less debt/be at a better school.

[utlaw2007]

Saying that 17k a year for ten years could be lowered in actuality or lowered based on a percentage of income earned is a fair argument. But I do think the assessment is subjective to a certain degree, a subjectivity that is impossible to assess on an online forum, since it ultimately depends upon life considerations outside of income earned and one's interests in how that person earns that income. I, personally, don't feel debt needs to be paid down in ten years since doing so in many circumstances would effect quality of life during that period. But that is the opinion that I have for my own circumstances and interests.

[utlaw2007]

I think people are underestimating just how low the cost of living is in Texas, especially Houston. I know people with that kind of debt that are doing just fine without biglaw jobs in Texas. The cost of living, including housing prices, are ridiculously low down here. People from all sorts of professions with advanced schooling have the same kind of debt, if not more, are doing just fine with mortgage payments without biglaw salaries. I am not saying that you will be living on easy street. But I am saying that 120K debt living in Texas without a biglaw salary is not as bad of a predicament as people here are suggesting.

I probably am underestimating just how low COL is, but I don't think that takes away from the fact that one "gets" to be an attorney for 17k a year for ten years. It may not be as bad of a predicament as, say, 120k debt in Washington D.C., but that certainly doesn't mean one should make a decision because the bad side isn't "as bad" as might have been originally assumed.

Again, not disagreeing with you. I'm sure you can live comfortably with 120k debt in Texas, but ideally OP could retake and have significantly less debt/be at a better school.

I do agree that a better school or more money would be a better solution. But that is always the case. A full ride to HYS would trump all law school choice issues. But that is not an option. I do agree that any person should always explore all options, including retaking, to better his/her situation. But one must also be prepared to make a decision based on the options available. If OP does not better his/her situation with a higher LSAT score, then he/she is still faced with this type of decision and, likely, these options.

As for the Texas option with this kind of debt, I can't really speak for NYU, I do not think it is a situation that mandates that the OP avoid law school altogether.

[sinfiery]

NYU with TX biglaw and cravath scale type lockstop salary + bonuses = a 3 year average of 130k after tax income. (160+170+185+10+14+20)

Living on 30k a year in TX single = A very good lifestyle.

Living on 18-20k a year in TX single = Not that difficult



NYU could be repaid in 3 years if TX biglaw is a backup option.

Would still require mediumish grades I believe though

[utlaw2007]

NYU with TX biglaw and cravath scale type lockstop salary + bonuses = a 3 year average of 130k after tax income. (160+170+185+10+14+20)

Living on 30k a year in TX single = A very good lifestyle.

Living on 18-20k a year in TX single = Not that difficult



NYU could be repaid in 3 years if TX biglaw is a backup option.

Would still require mediumish grades I believe though

I tend to agree with this post. I did vote NYU in the poll FWIW.

[Stanford4Me]

NYU with TX biglaw and cravath scale type lockstop salary + bonuses = a 3 year average of 130k after tax income. (160+170+185+10+14+20)

Living on 30k a year in TX single = A very good lifestyle.

Living on 18-20k a year in TX single = Not that difficult



NYU could be repaid in 3 years if TX biglaw is a backup option.

Would still require mediumish grades I believe though

Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but TX lockstep is not the same as New York lockstep. The only firms that get moderately close are Weil (still not close) and Susman (which requires a clerkship). Oh and maybe Bickel & Brewer. So your three year avg would be considerably lower, though still manageable.

[sinfiery]

Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but TX lockstep is not the same as New York lockstep. The only firms that get moderately close are Weil (still not close) and Susman (which requires a clerkship). Oh and maybe Bickel & Brewer. So your three year avg would be considerably lower, though still manageable.

Ahh, did not know that. I was just wrong, I assumed they had the same salaries

[Stanford4Me]

Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but TX lockstep is not the same as New York lockstep. The only firms that get moderately close are Weil (still not close) and Susman (which requires a clerkship). Oh and maybe Bickel & Brewer. So your three year avg would be considerably lower, though still manageable.

Ahh, did not know that. I was just wrong, I assumed they had the same salaries

First year is the same, but EOY bonuses and lockstep raises are considerably less. Still, I think it would be manageable to pay off the debt within 5-6 years depending on how frugal you decide to live.

ETA: Also, students coming from T10 schools have a good shot at landing a 1L summer gig, so two summers of summer pay (about 45k), or even just one summer (22k) could also go towards decreasing the amount of debt you end up with. I also think I'm under-calculating the amount of take-home pay as an SA.

[twenty]

ETA: Also, students coming from T10 schools have a good shot at landing a 1L summer gig

Is this actually a thing now? A year or two ago, 1L SAs were like unicorns.

[jbagelboy]

ETA: Also, students coming from T10 schools have a good shot at landing a 1L summer gig

Is this actually a thing now? A year or two ago, 1L SAs were like unicorns.

Traditionally ~30-35% of CCN would do full paying 1L SA's. Given the number of students who choose to do judicial externships and school funded work abroad or domestic (Columbia, for example, has guaranteed 1L summer funding for PI or to send you abroad), I would put the number who could get an SA if they wanted one at closer to 50%. I, for example, may very well not want to spend both summers at a large firm, and from what I can tell a lot of students at harvard, stanford, columbia, nyu share that preference.

[sinfiery]

It's also more common for TX based firms to offer than other areas I believe

[dixiecupdrinking]

ETA: Also, students coming from T10 schools have a good shot at landing a 1L summer gig

Is this actually a thing now? A year or two ago, 1L SAs were like unicorns.

Traditionally ~30-35% of CCN would do full paying 1L SA's. Given the number of students who choose to do judicial externships and school funded work abroad or domestic (Columbia, for example, has guaranteed 1L summer funding for PI or to send you abroad), I would put the number who could get an SA if they wanted one at closer to 50%. I, for example, may very well not want to spend both summers at a large firm, and from what I can tell a lot of students at harvard, stanford, columbia, nyu share that preference.

I don't know where you're getting this info but I think FAR less than 1/3 of CCN students have 1L summer associate jobs.

It is true that they are more plentiful in Texas, so someone who wants to work there will have better odds than most.

[jbagelboy]

ETA: Also, students coming from T10 schools have a good shot at landing a 1L summer gig

Is this actually a thing now? A year or two ago, 1L SAs were like unicorns.

Traditionally ~30-35% of CCN would do full paying 1L SA's. Given the number of students who choose to do judicial externships and school funded work abroad or domestic (Columbia, for example, has guaranteed 1L summer funding for PI or to send you abroad), I would put the number who could get an SA if they wanted one at closer to 50%. I, for example, may very well not want to spend both summers at a large firm, and from what I can tell a lot of students at harvard, stanford, columbia, nyu share that preference.

I don't know where you're getting this info but I think FAR less than 1/3 of CCN students have 1L summer associate jobs.

It is true that they are more plentiful in Texas, so someone who wants to work there will have better odds than most.

You are right I may have mispoken -- it's more like 18-20%. I thought I recalled seeing that low 30's% CLS students got work in a law firm their first summer and a comparable figure for NYU when I visited in April/spoke to students, but double checking the data for 2012 it was only 20% in SA's at firms.

[Tiago Splitter]

Yeah it's 20% at CLS. I really doubt 50% could get them, although the percentage might actually be higher than that if you're from Texas.

[Stanford4Me]

ETA: Also, students coming from T10 schools have a good shot at landing a 1L summer gig

Is this actually a thing now? A year or two ago, 1L SAs were like unicorns.

Sorry, I was unclear in my explanation. Students coming form a T10 going to secondary markets, like Texas. 1L SAs exist in New York but they are usually through some diversity program or the student absolutely rocked their first year.

[PunkedbyReality]

You always post the most difficult (for me) "choosing" threads.

Job opportunities and debt aside, it's undoubtedly true that NYU has a stronger PI culture than Texas, but I know a few PI lawyers who went to UT and had terrific experiences in the clinics they enrolled in. UT also has quite a significant number of PI-oriented clinics out of 17 clinics in total, according to their website: http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/. NYU definitely has more offerings (39 total clinics, I think), more long-term clinical professors, and significantly stronger institutional support for PI. I just don't think UT is a total desert in this regard.

As for COA at NYU, with the latest bump in tuition, you're actually looking at $300K at repayment if you're debt-financing everything. I really struggle to tell someone to take on $300K of non-dischargeable debt at anywhere other than YHS. NYU does have a good LRAP, but its entry requirement is not as forgiving as those of YHSCC. More precisely, there's no early date by which you have to enter the program, but the clock starts ticking on your 10-year participation window eight months after graduation, regardless of whether or not you're in the program at that time. You get a total of 24 months of possible extensions for certain circumstances, at the discretion of the program admin. PI hiring is very weak these days, so this could pose problems. And, of course, if you're not doing PI, then you have enormous debt and enormous monthly loan payments to take care of all by yourself. But then it's also true that your odds of having desirable employment options are much stronger out of NYU than they are from Texas.

Texas at that COA is a fairly low-risk proposition -- though the lower risk obviously comes with much lower probabilities of desirable employment and much more limited geographic mobility. But that debt total is survivable even without BigLaw. On the other hand, don't count on UT's LRAP to be of much help at all. You receive no benefits with an income above $50K, and eligibility terminates permanently if you leave eligible employment (with discretionary exceptions for layoffs).

Tough call. Your geographic preferences for work are something you haven't mentioned. Not knowing those, I would probably go with NYU and just hope not to face financial ruin down the road.

TI Malice, as always, thank you for a thorough and helpful response. I'm currently looking into financial aid. I'm going to draw some sort of a line in the sand in terms of financial aid to help me make the decision. As in, if I can get my COA below $XXXk amount given the aid they're offering, I'm in.

And as far as geographic preference goes, I'm not pro-Texas but I'm also not against. I love the vision of going to NYC for NYU and then transitioning to DC for some public-minded work, or even just staying in NYC. But I'm also not completely confident I know enough about the PI world in either of these two cities to guarantee my vision of it is justified. If I were to do NYU, the impetus would be on me to find out which issues I would want to work with and where. And should it turn out to be less ideal than envisioned, I would default to Big Law with my finance degree and business experience. Thus, the debt is very relevant in this scenario, but it is hard to get an accurate idea of how probable this scenario is before I must respond next week.

Thank you again. Your responses have been helpful throughout this process.

[thelawyler]

Since you are not quite sure where you interest lies I would go to the cheaper school.

+1

Banking on NYU's LRAP isn't a great idea unless you're absolutely sure PI is what you want to do.

Since the program is tied to IBR, there is the possibility that the interest on the loans from your massive cost of attendance will outpace your LRAP payments. If that happens, you will be locked into PI for 10 years unless you want to be several years out of law school with more debt than you started with.

At sticker that is a guarantee.

Pretty sure at NYU if you spend at least 3 years on the LRAP, you can leave at anytime and they will pay down your debt as if you had been making payments on the normal 10 year plan. Call them to confirm.

[PunkedbyReality]

Since you are not quite sure where you interest lies I would go to the cheaper school.

+1

Banking on NYU's LRAP isn't a great idea unless you're absolutely sure PI is what you want to do.

Since the program is tied to IBR, there is the possibility that the interest on the loans from your massive cost of attendance will outpace your LRAP payments. If that happens, you will be locked into PI for 10 years unless you want to be several years out of law school with more debt than you started with.

At sticker that is a guarantee.

Pretty sure at NYU if you spend at least 3 years on the LRAP, you can leave at anytime and they will pay down your debt as if you had been making payments on the normal 10 year plan. Call them to confirm.

I will confirm, but I'm fairly sure you're correct.

But three years on LRAP would mean leaving to go into private practice I'm assuming. I've been told that firms, including Big Law, look favorably on applicants who chose to do PI but had the grades to do Big Law if they had wanted to. What is it like for someone to go from PI to Big Law, or to private practice in general? Are there any negative consequences for the person who chooses to do PI and then later wishes to transition into Big Law? Are there certain ways to approach this?

[thelawyler]

I will confirm, but I'm fairly sure you're correct.

But three years on LRAP would mean leaving to go into private practice I'm assuming. I've been told that firms, including Big Law, look favorably on applicants who chose to do PI but had the grades to do Big Law if they had wanted to. What is it like for someone to go from PI to Big Law, or to private practice in general? Are there any negative consequences for the person who chooses to do PI and then later wishes to transition into Big Law? Are there certain ways to approach this?

I can't answer all of your questions, but I know tons of people with 3.0 GPAs who have gotten big law jobs (granted, not all do). But that's like bottom 15% of the class, and that's big law obtainable. At NYU, pretty much the entire spectrum of GPAs makes big law obtainable - you just gotta get lucky and probably interview/bid correctly if you're in the bottom quarter. But I have heard that people in the 3.1 range had an 80% offer rate at OCI (of at least one offer). I had to double check with career services because that was so close to the offer rate (83%) for the overall student population so it seemed overstated/incorrect, but they did confirm it as correct. Explained as smarter biding toward the correct firms instead of being cocky about their good GPA.

[dr123]

What do you mean by Pi. Do you want to be a legal aid attorney or do you have some ridiculous international human rights aspirations?

[dixiecupdrinking]

But three years on LRAP would mean leaving to go into private practice I'm assuming. I've been told that firms, including Big Law, look favorably on applicants who chose to do PI but had the grades to do Big Law if they had wanted to. What is it like for someone to go from PI to Big Law, or to private practice in general? Are there any negative consequences for the person who chooses to do PI and then later wishes to transition into Big Law? Are there certain ways to approach this?

It's nearly impossible, absent unusual circumstances. The general rule is you go into biglaw at graduation, or not at all. Maybe some rare opportunities exist for people who have certain relevant government experience, like AUSA --> working in private white collar practice, SEC --> certain corporate practices, etc. Clerking can also get you in, but even then, if you were working full time for three years as, say, a legal services lawyer and then do a federal clerkship, I don't think many firms will be all that interested.

Edit: I also think you're misinformed about firms' attitudes toward PI interested people. Having a PI background won't bar you from getting biglaw offers (I'm talking about EIW here) but it does raise interviewers' suspicions. They don't want to hire people who are just going to do a summer associate job and then bail to be public defenders, or who are just in it for the money with no interest in the subject matter of the job.

[maximator]

If I were to do NYU, the impetus would be on me to find out which issues I would want to work with and where. And should it turn out to be less ideal than envisioned, I would default to Big Law with my finance degree and business experience.

Just keep in mind that law school isn't exactly a place for self discovery. 1L doesn't give you any flexibility in choosing your classes. And if you want to be competitive for biglaw, you will focus on your grades that year. You won't have an opportunity to get involved in clinics, internships, etc. until 2L year...but if you want to keep big law as an option you will have bidded on, interviewed with, and possibly have accepted an offer with a firm before you ever set foot in your 2L classes/clinics.

And if you hate biglaw, you don't have to accept your offer. But you won't know that until 3L year has started. And you'll have to face the uncertainty of 3L hiring and compete with other candidates that have been tailoring their resumes to PI for all of law school.

Are you K-JD? If you are, seriously consider not matriculating this year and working a few years. It will help you figure out what you want your legal career to look like. Law school isn't going anywhere.

[dixiecupdrinking]

If I were to do NYU, the impetus would be on me to find out which issues I would want to work with and where. And should it turn out to be less ideal than envisioned, I would default to Big Law with my finance degree and business experience.

Just keep in mind that law school isn't exactly a place for self discovery. 1L doesn't give you any flexibility in choosing your classes. And if you want to be competitive for biglaw, you will focus on your grades that year. You won't have an opportunity to get involved in clinics, internships, etc. until 2L year...but if you want to keep big law as an option you will have bidded on, interviewed with, and possibly have accepted an offer with a firm before you ever set foot in your 2L classes/clinics.

And if you hate biglaw, you don't have to accept your offer. But you won't know that until 3L year has started. And you'll have to face the uncertainty of 3L hiring and compete with other candidates that have been tailoring their resumes to PI for all of law school.

Are you K-JD? If you are, seriously consider not matriculating this year and working a few years. It will help you figure out what you want your legal career to look like. Law school isn't going anywhere.

I cosign all of this 100%.