Washington & Lee vs. UMN Forum

[you'rethemannowdawg]

With regard to your reservations about living in the upper Midwest, people overestimate by a large degree the effect weather will have on their quality of life. MN isn't the arctic. Buy coats and hats for your kids and they can play in the snow for hours.

This is something that a Minnesotan would say. As a Minnesotan who believed this for years, it is dead wrong. The winter, especially the everlasting winter, has a major impact on your well being. I thought I was in heaven spending a winter in Virginia. It was the first time in years that I didn't have to smear my lips with chapstick everyday and use lotion twice a day to keep my skin and lips from becoming a cracked disaster.

This is what I ask most people before they move to the upper Midwest, have you ever walked outside after taking a shower and had your hair immediately freeze?

But you're also coming from Korea, and it is not exactly a tropical paradise either. Also, Lexington, the city where Washington & Lee is located, is a really small place. This doesn't make it bad, but you are talking about the difference between a school in a major urban area and one that is essentially in a big town.

Dove moisturizing bodywash. Dry your hair before going outside. Both of those problems are solved.

It's been pretty well established that weather has a much smaller impact on a person's well-being than he/she thinks it will, if it has an effect at all.

For example:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastianba ... ot-linked/

[UVAIce]

Super misleading headline on that article. The question that they polled on what "life satisfaction" and not "happiness." They are arguably two different things. Not to mention there are so many conflicting variables on something like this. Lots of warm and sunny places have high crime rates, low rate of education, and a laundry list of other variables.

Regardless, I can go outside for a walk or a run in Virginia pretty much any time of the year. I've found myself spending far more time outside than inside being in a warmer place. There is something that polling cannot quantify in being able to comfortably wear flip flops and shorts in April.

Weather does not a life make, but I know few people who would trade a 40 degree winter day in for one that is -40 degrees.

[overkillhsc]

Rising 2L at w & l here. I'm on full scholly with a 3.25 stip but it's hard for me to comment on how reasonable the offer to you is w/o knowing the actual offer they made you. Based on people I've talked to, most scholarships have cutoffs at 3.25 or 3.15, and I'm pretty sure everybody who got the full ride got it conditional on a 3.25. I also know a couple of people who got 50% tuition with a 3.25 stip, too. If losing the scholly is a significant concern for you, I would check out the data here: http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/page.asp?pageid=1286 .



Total Number of Scholarships
Awarded (at Enrollment) # of Scholarships Reduced Average Amount of Reduction Average Reduction (as Percentage of Original Award)
2014 80 NA NA NA
2013 101 6 $7,583.33 42.3%
2012 81 2 $8,522 27.5%
2011 85 2 $11,500 38.3%
2010 71 5 $6,200 32.3%
2009 78 3 $3,000 13.6%

The columns don't line up ideally in this format, but the first two columns on the left indicate that few students have their scholarships diminished.

Personally I'd say go UMN. I might just be bitter, though, since I was just informed that our highly-touted 3L program makes it impossible for me to do a visiting 3L at another school with more offerings in my area of interest.

[sublime]

..

[HBBJohnStamos]

1. Have no ties to Minnesota, very little in Virginia and will likely stay in the area of the school for employment & beyond.

Not to be a dick about this, but really, why these two schools? I don't see why you'd commit yourself to the legal profession or either of these areas with the information you've given. You could very well end up hating both within a year and have spent 20K in the process.

[UVAIce]

Minnesota also has a well deserved reputation for being a fairly insular place. You are forewarned.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

Minnesota also has a well deserved reputation for being a fairly insular place. You are forewarned.

What are you even talking about? Do you mean to say that a person moving from Korea to the Twin Cities will have trouble fitting in? Because that is completely false.

Are you actually from the area? Because all of your advice simply seems to be regurgitated stereotypes.

[smaug_]

Minnesota also has a well deserved reputation for being a fairly insular place. You are forewarned.

What are you even talking about? Do you mean to say that a person moving from Korea to the Twin Cities will have trouble fitting in? Because that is completely false.

Are you actually from the area? Because all of your advice simply seems to be regurgitated stereotypes.

Minnesota is totally insular. It isn't that someone will have a hard time fitting in, it is that Minnesotans don't actually go out of their way to be social with outsiders. Minnesota "Ice" is real.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

Minnesota also has a well deserved reputation for being a fairly insular place. You are forewarned.

What are you even talking about? Do you mean to say that a person moving from Korea to the Twin Cities will have trouble fitting in? Because that is completely false.

Are you actually from the area? Because all of your advice simply seems to be regurgitated stereotypes.

Minnesota is totally insular. It isn't that someone will have a hard time fitting in, it is that Minnesotans don't actually go out of their way to be social with outsiders. Minnesota "Ice" is real.

What are you basing this opinion on? This is a broad generalization about a state with millions of people and is pretty meaningless, especially since a large number of people in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area have moved there from elsewhere.

[UVAIce]

Minnesota also has a well deserved reputation for being a fairly insular place. You are forewarned.

What are you even talking about? Do you mean to say that a person moving from Korea to the Twin Cities will have trouble fitting in? Because that is completely false.

Are you actually from the area? Because all of your advice simply seems to be regurgitated stereotypes.

Minnesota is totally insular. It isn't that someone will have a hard time fitting in, it is that Minnesotans don't actually go out of their way to be social with outsiders. Minnesota "Ice" is real.

+1

[UVAIce]

Minnesota also has a well deserved reputation for being a fairly insular place. You are forewarned.

What are you even talking about? Do you mean to say that a person moving from Korea to the Twin Cities will have trouble fitting in? Because that is completely false.

Are you actually from the area? Because all of your advice simply seems to be regurgitated stereotypes.

I've probably lived around 14-15 years of my life in Minnesota "(Maple Grove, Brooklyn Park, Minneapolis, and St. Paul). The other half of my life has been spent living in other parts of the US, Europe, and other fun locales. Not only did I "grow up" in Minnesota, but I have left and come back. When I talk with non-Minnesotans who live in Minnesota they almost ALWAYS bring up the fact that Minnesotans tend to give people the cold shoulder. People just build their circle of friends at a young age and don't feel like expanding it any when they're adults. I see it happen all the time.

Excellent example of "Minnesota Nice," a Minnesotan will give you directions to every place but his house. No one will be "mean" to you, but they aren't going to be inviting you over for a pot luck either.

Edit: I hope you can understand that we aren't saying that every Minnesotan is this way, but enough are that these stereotypes hold some truth. I know more than a few professionals that have lived through one "Minnesota winter" of isolation and left; I'm fairly certain it was not the cold that kept them away.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

I've probably lived around 14-15 years of my life in Minnesota "(Maple Grove, Brooklyn Park, Minneapolis, and St. Paul). The other half of my life has been spent living in other parts of the US, Europe, and other fun locales. Not only did I "grow up" in Minnesota, but I have left and come back. When I talk with non-Minnesotans who live in Minnesota they almost ALWAYS bring up the fact that Minnesotans tend to give people the cold shoulder. People just build their circle of friends at a young age and don't feel like expanding it any when they're adults. I see it happen all the time.

Excellent example of "Minnesota Nice," a Minnesotan will give you directions to every place but his house. No one will be "mean" to you, but they aren't going to be inviting you over for a pot luck either.

Edit: I hope you can understand that we aren't saying that every Minnesota is this way, but enough are that these stereotypes hold some truth. I know more than a few professionals that have lived through one "Minnesota winter" of isolation and left; I'm fairly certain it was not the cold that kept them away.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of this before, but I guess it happens.

[Nova]

About 60% of UMN Law is from OOS. So that helps. Alone together.

[thenewguy]

Winters can definitely affect your happiness. Even the move from PA to MI was significant for me. Something about the sky being grey from November - April is just daunting. But obviously it depends on the person.

[agni]

Still undecided, the lists of pros and cons are just overwhelming.

A lot of people telling me lot of different things, with everything still pretty much boiling down to having to do real well period.

As for what I have heard so far:

1. Insular = not a big deal unless it means I can't even secure professional opportunities. I already have a family, and there seems to be a sizable Korean-American community in Minnesota that I can fall back on if my family really needs some new friends. Also at least my children won't have that problem; kinda hoping that PTA stuff will help break some of those walls.

2. W & L 3L program = a big issue for me, but in the long run I am not sure if that will hurt graduates. It will really depend on how the W&L alumni feel about this, I guess.

3. Minnesota Winter = really don't know what to expect here. I mean i've been to some cold places (Moscow, Helsinki) and lived in places that have fairly cold winters (Germany, Korea... DC?) but everyone tells me it's just beyond imagination.

4. Ties = I've already met up with 7 other Korean/Korean-Americans going/returning to UMN law who are currently in Korea. UMN has, due to its programs that are geared towards developing countries, a lot of ties to Korea with a sizable alumni base. Heck, even at my old workplace I met and talked to a few UMN graduates although they weren't Law School graduates. Washington & Lee is a totally different story as I know of nobody that went to the place. However, my highschool was in DC so the area in general is likely filled with untapped alumni, not to mention a few of my college friends who moved to the place.


Still waffling though.

[Nova]

5. Chance of ever practicing law:

2/3 vs 1/2

[jtype01]

.

[hephaestus]

This seems like a classic don't go to law school situation.

[HBBJohnStamos]

This seems like a classic don't go to law school situation.

[jbagelboy]

MInNEAPOLIS IS TiGHT!! YOU CAN GET A CRAZY RAD PLACE FOR <$1500!!!! DOO ITTtT

Disclaimer: was just clubbing in uptown and its a good time

[jbagelboy]

Fwiw its way underrated, its not like durham or AA it has a real community and a great gay scene if your into that (but outside the suburbs like ep/edina its accepting and has a lot of niche vibe) but also a bro scene if you want to find it

Look im paying 2000 for a fucking 1BR closet next yr in manhattan and thats some bullshit when I see my friends apartments here. Fuck LST I want a patio and enough room for my twin sofas ill trade

[haus]

UMN is a big winner over W&L

[atwardow]

It seems, given your personal context and the reality of the legal job market, that UMN would be a better choice in light of your two options. Keep in mind that at the very least UMN is the dominant law school in Minnesota as well as a good chunk of the Upper Midwest, whereas WL is situated in a hyper-saturated market where you would be competing against graduates from UVA, Georgetown, etc. etc.

I have lived in Minneapolis for three years, and can personally assure you that the weather isn't as big of a deal as some of the posters above are claiming. Sure, every person is different with regard to the climate he or she can tolerate, but making a decision about attending law school based on climate seems to me to be a gigantic mistake. Oh, and the comment about Minnesota being insular is just plain stupid. Contrast the Twin Cities with "greater Minnesota" and you probably see a lot of insularity in the latter...just as you do in any part of the country or the world for that matter that is more sparsely populated and rural. Minneapolis-St. Paul is very diverse, vibrant, and boasts a dynamic economy that attracts talent from all around the world. I don't think you should take posters who don't seem to understand this very seriously.

[BigZuck]

It seems, given your personal context and the reality of the legal job market, that UMN would be a better choice in light of your two options. Keep in mind that at the very least UMN is the dominant law school in Minnesota as well as a good chunk of the Upper Midwest, whereas WL is situated in a hyper-saturated market where you would be competing against graduates from UVA, Georgetown, etc. etc.

I have lived in Minneapolis for three years, and can personally assure you that the weather isn't as big of a deal as some of the posters above are claiming. Sure, every person is different with regard to the climate he or she can tolerate, but making a decision about attending law school based on climate seems to me to be a gigantic mistake. Oh, and the comment about Minnesota being insular is just plain stupid. Contrast the Twin Cities with "greater Minnesota" and you probably see a lot of insularity in the latter...just as you do in any part of the country or the world for that matter that is more sparsely populated and rural. Minneapolis-St. Paul is very diverse, vibrant, and boasts a dynamic economy that attracts talent from all around the world. I don't think you should take posters who don't seem to understand this very seriously.

Weather does have a large impact on the quality of life for many people. Also, you saying the Minnesota legal market is not insular flies in the face of everything I have heard about that legal market (and most small legal markets, really). I think a lot of what you said is dangerous.

Agreed that this seems like a classic don't go to law school situation.

[atwardow]

It seems, given your personal context and the reality of the legal job market, that UMN would be a better choice in light of your two options. Keep in mind that at the very least UMN is the dominant law school in Minnesota as well as a good chunk of the Upper Midwest, whereas WL is situated in a hyper-saturated market where you would be competing against graduates from UVA, Georgetown, etc. etc.

I have lived in Minneapolis for three years, and can personally assure you that the weather isn't as big of a deal as some of the posters above are claiming. Sure, every person is different with regard to the climate he or she can tolerate, but making a decision about attending law school based on climate seems to me to be a gigantic mistake. Oh, and the comment about Minnesota being insular is just plain stupid. Contrast the Twin Cities with "greater Minnesota" and you probably see a lot of insularity in the latter...just as you do in any part of the country or the world for that matter that is more sparsely populated and rural. Minneapolis-St. Paul is very diverse, vibrant, and boasts a dynamic economy that attracts talent from all around the world. I don't think you should take posters who don't seem to understand this very seriously.

Weather does have a large impact on the quality of life for many people. Also, you saying the Minnesota legal market is not insular flies in the face of everything I have heard about that legal market (and most small legal markets, really). I think a lot of what you said is dangerous.

Agreed that this seems like a classic don't go to law school situation.

Previous posters' comments regarding insularity refer to the culture of Minnesota or Minnesotans' attitudes toward "outsiders," not the legal market. The data about that subject speak for themselves.