Thanks! Forum

[jbagelboy]

What kind of PI work do you want to do and where do you want to do it? If you want to work in Chicago, NU at nearly any cost-advantage is the best choice for every career but academia, IMO.

Also, clerking is not a career, so I don't think that should really be part of the equation. Why do you want to clerk? It doesn't sound particularly relevant to your employment goals.

Ideally I'd like to stay in the Midwest (Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis, etc), but I could be happy almost anywhere as long as the COL is reasonable.

I mentioned clerkships because I've heard that they can open great doors to government/PI jobs. But I also realize that my specific career goals are likely to change somewhat between now and 2L/3L, so you might be right. The one thing I know for sure is that I don't want a career where I'm required to work ultra-boring, 70+hr/weeks for months on end. I'm not categorically opposed to working in biglaw/midlaw, but I don't want to take on so much debt that I'm forced to stick it out at a firm even if I end up hating the work or the lifestyle.

Honestly, I don't think "ultra-boring" is a fair description of work at a large firm, at least relative to any other kind of legal work. Yes, the hours suck, and sometimes your clients are not the most humane, but the work can still be interesting. If you don't like analyzing/debating/utilizing the law, don't go to law school, but if you do, then the work could still be enjoyable at times, and even on those rare occasions where you contribute something towards a positive outcome, rewarding.

As someone who has worked in several different fields, none of which the average person would describe as particularly "boring", I'll just say that work is work, for 95% of the population, it blows everywhere and there are ALWAYS boring moments. That's part of what you're getting paid for. Is public interest law intrinsically more interesting (read: less ultra-boring) than the work you might do at a large firm? I can't tell you, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Any litigation (to me) can be interesting - boring legal work, on the other hand, would be filing divorces, writing wills, ect., stuff where all you are needed for is your signature.

[Samara]

What kind of PI work do you want to do and where do you want to do it? If you want to work in Chicago, NU at nearly any cost-advantage is the best choice for every career but academia, IMO.

Also, clerking is not a career, so I don't think that should really be part of the equation. Why do you want to clerk? It doesn't sound particularly relevant to your employment goals.

Ideally I'd like to stay in the Midwest (Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis, etc), but I could be happy almost anywhere as long as the COL is reasonable.

I mentioned clerkships because I've heard that they can open great doors to government/PI jobs. But I also realize that my specific career goals are likely to change somewhat between now and 2L/3L, so you might be right. The one thing I know for sure is that I don't want a career where I'm required to work ultra-boring, 70+hr/weeks for months on end. I'm not categorically opposed to working in biglaw/midlaw, but I don't want to take on so much debt that I'm forced to stick it out at a firm even if I end up hating the work or the lifestyle.

Honestly, I don't think "ultra-boring" is a fair description of work at a large firm, at least relative to any other kind of legal work. Yes, the hours suck, and sometimes your clients are not the most humane, but the work can still be interesting. If you don't like analyzing/debating/utilizing the law, don't go to law school, but if you do, then the work could still be enjoyable at times, and even on those rare occasions where you contribute something towards a positive outcome, rewarding.

As someone who has worked in several different fields, none of which the average person would describe as particularly "boring", I'll just say that work is work, for 95% of the population, it blows everywhere and there are ALWAYS boring moments. That's part of what you're getting paid for. Is public interest law intrinsically more interesting (read: less ultra-boring) than the work you might do at a large firm? I can't tell you, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Any litigation (to me) can be interesting - boring legal work, on the other hand, would be filing divorces, writing wills, ect., stuff where all you are needed for is your signature.

Agreed. I personally think most PI work is incredibly boring, but I know most people think the practice areas I'm interested in are incredibly boring. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that.

Generally, I think it's the case that biglaw work is more complex and cutting-edge, for whatever that's worth.

[Samara]

What kind of PI work do you want to do and where do you want to do it? If you want to work in Chicago, NU at nearly any cost-advantage is the best choice for every career but academia, IMO.

Also, clerking is not a career, so I don't think that should really be part of the equation. Why do you want to clerk? It doesn't sound particularly relevant to your employment goals.

Ideally I'd like to stay in the Midwest (Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis, etc), but I could be happy almost anywhere as long as the COL is reasonable.

I mentioned clerkships because I've heard that they can open great doors to government/PI jobs. But I also realize that my specific career goals are likely to change somewhat between now and 2L/3L, so you might be right. The one thing I know for sure is that I don't want a career where I'm required to work ultra-boring, 70+hr/weeks for months on end. I'm not categorically opposed to working in biglaw/midlaw, but I don't want to take on so much debt that I'm forced to stick it out at a firm even if I end up hating the work or the lifestyle.

Getting PI work requires more networking than for biglaw or govt work, so it's helpful (though by no means "required") to go to school in the area you want to work. So, NU has that going for it.

I think it's smart to keep your debt load low. Even though there is LRAP and such, you have to get a qualifying job and keep it for ten years. Having minimal debt offers a lot of freedom.

What kind of PI/gov work do you want to do? Doing something like impact litigation with the ACLU, clerkships and prestige are important. Something like legal aid, that is far less important and networking is a big part. Public defender/prosecutor stuff is kind of a mix. Gov work depends on the agency: AUSA is more like a biglaw track and (I believe) usually requires doing something else first. Somewhere like the EPA is more like a typical PI track.

[tirakon]

I got into all three of HYS with your exact numbers. Don't ED to Northwestern. Even if you're too debt averse for HYS, you'll likely be sitting on substantial money from higher-ranked schools.

That's really impressive. Mind if I ask what your softs were like?

My softs were strong. PM me for details.

[Stinson]

There's no reason to limit yourself. Apply and consider your options against your goals. You have waaaay more than you need to ED Northwestern.

What do you think one needs to ED NU?

I mean if OP had lower numbers, then OP might need to use ED to sneak in below NU's medians by providing NU a guaranteed yield. OP has higher numbers than needed to get into NU regular decision.

Sorry, reading comp fail about the scholarship, was thinking of different sort of ED. Still probably wouldn't ED to NU here, though, if PI is really what OP wants.

[NoWorries]

OP look at LSN. If 12-13 cycle is like 13-14 you are in at H. Solid chance at Stanford too.

[BalanceCare]

Thought this thread might be a flame when I saw the title. If you Ed to NU, you'll make the adcom who sees your application giddy with delight at his good fortune. Meanwhile you could get into HYS, as others have said. Especially H.

Don't ED anywhere. Apply to t14 and see what happens. You'll almost certainly get close to a full ride somewhere, and options are your friend. Additionally, depending on your circumstances, need-based aid at HYS could make one of those schools much more appealing than NU with loans for Chicago COL.

[FlanAl]

Do not ED anywhere with those numbers. Give yourself options. Also, since you work in finance now, it might be god to start volunteering in the PI field that you are interested in. You want to be able to show the schools you are applying to that you are genuinely interested in a career in PI. Also, make sure you tailor your law school career around PI. Don't like intern for a judge 1L, then work for a firm 2L and then try to get a PI career.

[Aasterinian]

Honestly, I don't think "ultra-boring" is a fair description of work at a large firm, at least relative to any other kind of legal work. Yes, the hours suck, and sometimes your clients are not the most humane, but the work can still be interesting. If you don't like analyzing/debating/utilizing the law, don't go to law school, but if you do, then the work could still be enjoyable at times, and even on those rare occasions where you contribute something towards a positive outcome, rewarding. 

Point taken. I didn't mean to imply that all or nearly all biglaw work is unbearably boring -- or that I would necessarily rule out doing firm work after I graduate. I mentioned it only because I've seen a lot of horror stories on TLS about people who took on six-figure debt, rationalizing that they'd pay it off with a few years in biglaw. Some of them end up totally hating biglaw (or their particular firm) but can't exit for a better job with a lower salary because of their student loan debt. I want to avoid a situation like that, and that was the main reason why I brought up not wanting to count on biglaw. Similarly, I also wouldn't want to be stuck at a crappy PI job for 10 years in order to qualify for LRAP.

What kind of PI/gov work do you want to do?

Not public prosecution or defense. IRS, impact litigation, legal advocacy, etc all sounds appealing. But, again, I'm sure my specific goals will shift a bit after I start LS and learn more about the details of each of these career paths. I have a solid quantitative background and my current job requires me to deal with lots of financial legal documents (which I enjoy), so if I did do firm work or advocacy I'd probably focus on bankruptcy, tax law, or something of that nature. (This is another reason why NU appeals to me so much -- their tax law program has a fantastic reputation.)

need-based aid at HYS could make one of those schools much more appealing than NU with loans for Chicago COL.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't qualify for much, if any. My family's income is roughly $200k. My parents have agreed to cover 10k of tuition or COL per-year but other expenses (mostly expensive hobbies and the mortgage on their house) prevent them from being able to help out with anything beyond that.

since you work in finance now, it might be good to start volunteering in the PI field that you are interested in. You want to be able to show the schools you are applying to that you are genuinely interested in a career in PI.

I've been a VITA volunteer for a couple years -- is something like that sufficient to demonstrate PI interest?

[jbagelboy]

need-based aid at HYS could make one of those schools much more appealing than NU with loans for Chicago COL.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't qualify for much, if any. My family's income is roughly $200k. My parents have agreed to cover 10k of tuition or COL per-year but other expenses (mostly expensive hobbies and the mortgage on their house) prevent them from being able to help out with anything beyond that.

What's life worth anyway without polo and the club?

[beepboopbeep]

need-based aid at HYS could make one of those schools much more appealing than NU with loans for Chicago COL.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't qualify for much, if any. My family's income is roughly $200k. My parents have agreed to cover 10k of tuition or COL per-year but other expenses (mostly expensive hobbies and the mortgage on their house) prevent them from being able to help out with anything beyond that.

I think you'd be a strong candidate for Hamilton at Columbia or RTK from NYU. Too bad the Ruby's gone.

Either way I'm going to join the chorus of "DON'T ED ANYWHERE," in case it hasn't gotten through yet. You are going to have great options and money from a lot of places.

[Aasterinian]

need-based aid at HYS could make one of those schools much more appealing than NU with loans for Chicago COL.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't qualify for much, if any. My family's income is roughly $200k. My parents have agreed to cover 10k of tuition or COL per-year but other expenses (mostly expensive hobbies and the mortgage on their house) prevent them from being able to help out with anything beyond that.

What's life worth anyway without polo and the club?

You forgot sailboat racing (srsly). My parents are lovely people for the most part, but I'll never forget the look on my brother's face when they told him they were buying a boat instead of paying for his first year of college. Keep in mind that we live in the midwest -- the boat is in Maryland where my dad travels for business once every few weeks.

[jbagelboy]

need-based aid at HYS could make one of those schools much more appealing than NU with loans for Chicago COL.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't qualify for much, if any. My family's income is roughly $200k. My parents have agreed to cover 10k of tuition or COL per-year but other expenses (mostly expensive hobbies and the mortgage on their house) prevent them from being able to help out with anything beyond that.

What's life worth anyway without polo and the club?

You forgot sailboat racing (srsly). My parents are lovely people for the most part, but I'll never forget the look on my brother's face when they told him they were buying a boat instead of paying for his first year of college. Keep in mind that we live in the midwest -- the boat is in Maryland where my dad travels for business once every few weeks.

You know, that's funny because I was debating between using polo or sailing/yachting as my obligatory taunt.

also its amazing how different $200K is in different places. In much of the midwest with CoL, I imagine that goes a long way.. in orange county where I grew up, it would be marginal w/ average home price nearly $2 mil in the zip code. my parents made bad investments/decisions & my dad lost his job and now they don't live there anymore and have just enough for retirement savings/siblings college, but thankfully my UG was covered in time -- bailing on your kid's tuition for personal luxury expense is a low blow. Ever seen arrested development? Yea, I know people in my community for whom that's actually pretty on point.

[Aasterinian]

also its amazing how different $200K is in different places.

Totally. I'd never been outside the central plains/deep south until UG when I started travelling for conferences and things like that. I remember being shocked at the amount of wealth in places like NYC, SF, and South Beach. A family making $200k/year is considered "rich" by nearly everyone within a 50 mile radius of my home town, but on the coasts that kind of money is nothing. E.g., I recently met a girl from Belle Harbor who spent 1/4th of my family's yearly income on a weekend of shopping/partying in New York.

[jbagelboy]

I recently met a girl from Belle Harbor who spent 1/4th of my family's yearly income on a weekend of shopping/partying in New York.

Gross. I can relate.

[Cobretti]

You know, that's funny because I was debating between using polo or sailing/yachting as my obligatory taunt.

also its amazing how different $200K is in different places. In much of the midwest with CoL, I imagine that goes a long way.. in orange countyNewport/Laguna where I grew up, it would be marginal w/ average home price nearly $2 mil in the zip code. my parents made bad investments/decisions & my dad lost his job and now they don't live there anymore and have just enough for retirement savings/siblings college, but thankfully my UG was covered in time -- bailing on your kid's tuition for personal luxury expense is a low blow. Ever seen arrested development? Yea, I know people in my community for whom that's actually pretty on point.

FTFY

[jbagelboy]

You know, that's funny because I was debating between using polo or sailing/yachting as my obligatory taunt.

also its amazing how different $200K is in different places. In much of the midwest with CoL, I imagine that goes a long way.. in orange countyNewport/Laguna where I grew up, it would be marginal w/ average home price nearly $2 mil in the zip code. my parents made bad investments/decisions & my dad lost his job and now they don't live there anymore and have just enough for retirement savings/siblings college, but thankfully my UG was covered in time -- bailing on your kid's tuition for personal luxury expense is a low blow. Ever seen arrested development? Yea, I know people in my community for whom that's actually pretty on point.

FTFY

good point, although there are gross places similar to newport all over LA/OC county

[t-14orbust]

I think you'd be a strong candidate for Hamilton at Columbia or RTK from NYU. Too bad the Ruby's gone.

Either way I'm going to join the chorus of "DON'T ED ANYWHERE," in case it hasn't gotten through yet. You are going to have great options and money from a lot of places.

I doubt OP will get the Hamilton, they want at least 175 if not 176.

[Cobretti]

You know, that's funny because I was debating between using polo or sailing/yachting as my obligatory taunt.

also its amazing how different $200K is in different places. In much of the midwest with CoL, I imagine that goes a long way.. in orange countyNewport/Laguna where I grew up, it would be marginal w/ average home price nearly $2 mil in the zip code. my parents made bad investments/decisions & my dad lost his job and now they don't live there anymore and have just enough for retirement savings/siblings college, but thankfully my UG was covered in time -- bailing on your kid's tuition for personal luxury expense is a low blow. Ever seen arrested development? Yea, I know people in my community for whom that's actually pretty on point.

FTFY

good point, although there are gross places similar to newport all over LA/OC county

There's definitely some, but the vast majority of orange county is pretty far from that stereotype (anaheim, santa ana, etc). I mean, it would be impossible for a geographic area that large to be that well off as a whole.

Just a pet peeve of mine (also from the area).

[t-14orbust]

You know, that's funny because I was debating between using polo or sailing/yachting as my obligatory taunt.

also its amazing how different $200K is in different places. In much of the midwest with CoL, I imagine that goes a long way.. in orange countyNewport/Laguna where I grew up, it would be marginal w/ average home price nearly $2 mil in the zip code. my parents made bad investments/decisions & my dad lost his job and now they don't live there anymore and have just enough for retirement savings/siblings college, but thankfully my UG was covered in time -- bailing on your kid's tuition for personal luxury expense is a low blow. Ever seen arrested development? Yea, I know people in my community for whom that's actually pretty on point.

FTFY

good point, although there are gross places similar to newport all over LA/OC county

There's definitely some, but the vast majority of orange county is pretty far from that stereotype (anaheim, santa ana, etc). I mean, it would be impossible for a geographic area that large to be that well off as a whole.

Just a pet peeve of mine (also from the area).

lol at the thought of Santa Ana having a 2mil avg home price.

[FlanAl]

VITA is volunteer tax assistance? If you want to do civil PI stuff that background would be great. Write a personal statement about that and I'd imagine you are golden for HYS. Did your friend with better softs talk about wanting to do PI?

[cavtrpr]

I'm still new to this forum and am learning the lingo. What is PI?

[t-14orbust]

I'm still new to this forum and am learning the lingo. What is PI?

Public Interest Law

[cavtrpr]

I'm still new to this forum and am learning the lingo. What is PI?

Public Interest Law

Thanks

[Cobretti]

I'm still new to this forum and am learning the lingo. What is PI?

TLS Abbreviation and Jargon