Help MarkinKansasCity choose a law school - Round 2 Forum

[RedGiant]

Hey Mark--hope you're well. This is a toughie, but given the choice of no debt or pretty significant debt (esp. bc salaries coming out will not by NY-scale biglaw), I would seriously consider KU, and then study and network your buns off. Also, you seemed to prefer KC to STL when we were there. But a very tough choice....If you really want to experience something different, I would study abroad your 3rd year (or a portion of it) if you've already locked down a job. And if you thought WUSTL was that special...then go for it. But if you think it'll give you nightmares about debt (it did for me), then your peace of mind is worth it.

I was struggling with two schools and a wise atty friend at work said, "Will you look back in 5 years and wish you went to [WUSTL] if you chose [KU]? Or if you chose WUSTL, would you wish you had chosen KU? Figure out the answers to those questions, and that's your answer."

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

It's pretty goofy to say that if a school places 30% in a job, then you have a 70% chance of not getting that job

lolwut!?!? nah bru anyone who goes to law skool ever wants biglaw/fed clerkship those other jerbs are just jerbs.

what i just said is TCR.

guys, can you believe this goof called us goofs? TCR

[boblawlob]

What are the stipulations for Kansas? Is it a 3.0? How often do people lose their scholarships?

[worldtraveler]

Negotiate more money from WUSTL.

[rebexness]

What is your total COA at each?

[MKC]

What is your total COA at each?

These numbers exclude living expenses because I'm married, and my wife and I have to eat and sleep regardless.

Emory: $89K
KU: $3K (books)
WUSTL: $82K
ND: $91K

All Scholarships require only good standing, except KU, which requires a 2.85. Median at KU is listed as between 2.8-3.0, so this basically means top half. I'm fucked anyway if I come out below median at KU.

[North]

All Scholarships require only good standing, except KU, which requires a 2.85. Median at KU is listed as between 2.8-3.0, so this basically means top half. I'm fucked anyway if I come out below median at KU.

That changes things.

Would you be prepared to drop out if you lost your scholarship?

[Eberry]

Rock Chalk Jayhawk brother.

[romothesavior]

With that stipulation on the KU scholarship, I vote WUSTL. This is a close call. Have you negotiated yet?

[BigZuck]

Mark- I'm dense, help me out. How much is each school going to cost you? Is it the number in the OP? If so, ND all the way. About the same chance of big law as at WUSTL and 18K cheaper and the biggest "name" if that means anything to you or future employers.

What am I missing here? ND is easily worth 30K more than KU IMO.

[Danger Zone]

I don't think you can go wrong choosing between KU or WUSTL here. 100k isn't a staggering amount of debt, and like you said, you'll need top half at KU to get a decent job anyway. Toss a coin and choose the one that you hoped for while the coin was in the air.

[rwhyAn]

Mark- I'm dense, help me out. How much is each school going to cost you? Is it the number in the OP? If so, ND all the way. About the same chance of big law as at WUSTL and 18K cheaper and the biggest "name" if that means anything to you or future employers.

What am I missing here? ND is easily worth 30K more than KU IMO.

I think those are just the scholly amounts in the OP.

[BigZuck]

Mark- I'm dense, help me out. How much is each school going to cost you? Is it the number in the OP? If so, ND all the way. About the same chance of big law as at WUSTL and 18K cheaper and the biggest "name" if that means anything to you or future employers.

What am I missing here? ND is easily worth 30K more than KU IMO.

I think those are just the scholly amounts in the OP.

That's what MPPSS or whatever stands for?

Why do people insist on putting this info up in the most obtuse way possible? Or maybe I'm just the obtuse one?

[romothesavior]

I also am confused about what MPPSS means.

[MKC]

Mark- I'm dense, help me out. How much is each school going to cost you? Is it the number in the OP? If so, ND all the way. About the same chance of big law as at WUSTL and 18K cheaper and the biggest "name" if that means anything to you or future employers.

What am I missing here? ND is easily worth 30K more than KU IMO.

I think those are just the scholly amounts in the OP.

That's what MPPSS or whatever stands for?

Why do people insist on putting this info up in the most obtuse way possible? Or maybe I'm just the obtuse one?

It is kind of obtuse. I didn't really think through the OP when I posted this, so I've been adding information ad-hoc in response to questions.

MPPSS = median private practice starting salary. I know it's a shit metric, but it's the only salary number I can use to compare schools, since WUSTL provides jack shit as far as granular salary data goes.

KU would cost about $3,000.
WUSTL would cost about $82,000.
Notre Dame would cost about $91,000.

[BigZuck]

Mark- I'm dense, help me out. How much is each school going to cost you? Is it the number in the OP? If so, ND all the way. About the same chance of big law as at WUSTL and 18K cheaper and the biggest "name" if that means anything to you or future employers.

What am I missing here? ND is easily worth 30K more than KU IMO.

I think those are just the scholly amounts in the OP.

That's what MPPSS or whatever stands for?

Why do people insist on putting this info up in the most obtuse way possible? Or maybe I'm just the obtuse one?

It is kind of obtuse. I didn't really think through the OP when I posted this, so I've been adding information ad-hoc in response to questions.

MPPSS = median private practice starting salary. I know it's a shit metric, but it's the only salary number I can use to compare schools, since WUSTL provides jack shit as far as granular salary data goes.

KU would cost about $3,000.
WUSTL would cost about $82,000.
Notre Dame would cost about $91,000.

Then enjoy WUSTL. You almost certainly won't get big law out of KU. You probably won't get it out of WUSTL either but you have a much greater chance. I'm pretty conservative about this stuff but even I think WUSTL is worth it at 80K. If you decide you just want to be a lawyer (any lawyer) then I would go to KU.

[keg411]

As far as debt goes: $82k from WUSTL is do-able. $91k from ND isn't horrible (since I think ND has slightly better placement than WUSTL, but I applied forever and a day ago). $3k at KU is pretty sweet, but you have to know what you're getting into as far as KU is concerned.

Think you'll be okay with whatever you pick out of those three. If one school stood out to you as more "comfortable" or where you feel like you'll be more likely to succeed, pick that one. Also, know that you're probably not getting BigLaw, plan for it and be okay with it no matter which you pick.

[shifty_eyed]

Stop trying to make MPPSS happen!

[hephaestus]

Stop trying to make MPPSS happen!

It's too much of a fake number to be even marginally useful. Firm side from the ABA data is a much better proxy.

[jbagelboy]

I would go to WUSTL, and be happy when you are even getting interviews inside offices of firms that the KU kids at your class rank will never see in their life. Dont expect these to necessaril be the big prestigious firms though unless you hit that top third.

Your wife havig a decent salary makes me feel more comfortable about recommendng the debt for better opportunities.

Lastly, you said you may want some degree of portability later in life. As another poster mentioned, Washington University is well known and well respected throughout the midwest. No one outside of Kansas and missouri gives a flying shit about KU as far as I can tell. Im not saying any option will be very portable, but wustl is a clear winner on that score in a relative sense.

Edit: sorry for the typos Im on my phone

[WokeUpInACar]

Go to WUSTL bro

[2014]

Wash U is not worth 100k more than KU for your goals. From what I can tell about KC their SA breakdowns are basically:

1/5 KU
1/5 MU
1/5 T14
1/10 UMKC
1/10 WUSTL
1/10 Washburn
1/10 Everywhere else

All require ties.

WUSTL gives you a better plan B (St. Louis), a more prestigious degree, and maybe more room in the class to still get KC, but honestly if you aren't going to get say top 10% at KU you aren't going to get top 15% at WUSTL and vice versa.

I struggled with this exact decision last year and came out in favor of WUSTL and have since decided in hindsight KU would have been the better call. It's close enough to partly come down to your wife's preference and yours between either Lawrence/KC commute or St. Louis.


Is this the Rice scholarship btw? When they were selling me on it last year they claimed recipients had historically been really successful for whatever that is worth (Probably not much but w/e)

[romothesavior]

I think WUSTL with strong KC/midwest ties is worth 75k+ over KU, but it's certainly a close call and I can understand the argument from both sides. I've just seen the weight that the WUSTL degree has in KC and it's been pretty strong for the people I know. And all reports are that the 2L class as a whole has had a much better go of it for jobs than my class did, which was an improvement over the class of 2012.

[Winston1984]

I voted WUSTL.

KU will limit you to just 2 states (Kansas and Missouri). WUSTL will open up the entire Midwest I'm assuming (what do I know).

If you aren't magna cum laude at KU, might as well say good bye to biglaw because only 13 ppl from KU get Biglaw. With WUSTL, ~4x that number (44) go to a firm that has more than 500 attorneys (that's not counting those in firms that are 100-500 in size).

TLS will say take KU because it's free. But I think WUSTL will be worth it in the long run.

I agree. Also, to say that only the top quartile get a good outcome from WUSTL isn't fair because people select out for public service/government work. I would take WUSTL, it will also be much more portable to you in the future.

[BitterSplitter]

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