Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn Forum

[dawyzest1]

As for the MBA, is there an HYS-MVP distinction between Wharton and Stern? Wharton getting way more lay prestige is the only reason I ask.

It's not just lay prestige with Wharton. Wharton is in the highest echelon with Harvard and Stanford. Stern isn't part of the M7, which is basically like the T14 in b-school world. If the MBA is seriously part of your goals, OP, and not just a nice thing to have, it's Penn and Columbia only.

You said you have two years of WE, OP. That's on the very low side for Wharton if you weren't doing consulting or banking. I would see if Penn would be willing to hook you up with folks on the Wharton side who could give you a general sense of what they look for in accelerated MBA candidates who are coming from the law school. If it looks like you have a fair shot, I'd go to Penn. The Wharton MBA is that valuable.

[KingFish]

If you just want to be a simple lawyer, any are fine, NYU is probably the best value for the money. If you are serious about the MBA, do Penn.

And be a simple, kind of man.
Oh be something, you love and understand.
Baby be a simple, kind of man.
Oh, won't you do this for me son,
If you can?

[Kalinda]

As for the MBA, is there an HYS-MVP distinction between Wharton and Stern? Wharton getting way more lay prestige is the only reason I ask.

It's not just lay prestige with Wharton. Wharton is in the highest echelon with Harvard and Stanford. Stern isn't part of the M7, which is basically like the T14 in b-school world. If the MBA is seriously part of your goals, OP, and not just a nice thing to have, it's Penn and Columbia only.

You said you have two years of WE, OP. That's on the very low side for Wharton if you weren't doing consulting or banking. I would see if Penn would be willing to hook you up with folks on the Wharton side who could give you a general sense of what they look for in accelerated MBA candidates who are coming from the law school. If it looks like you have a fair shot, I'd go to Penn. The Wharton MBA is that valuable.

This exactly. My SO went to Penn and had a few friends who tried to get into Wharton, even individuals with 4+ years were denied. Depending on your WE, Wharton may not be a realistic option. Like the above poster said, if a MBA is something that is seriously in your goals I'd go for Penn. Actually I would go for Penn either way because its COA is lower than your other options and still gives you the same type of opportunities.

[HBBJohnStamos]

If you want the MBA/JD, I'd go Penn.

If you want CA/NYC biglaw, I would go with CLS/NYU based on which school you like better. I would not be comfortable going to Penn if Pennsylvania biglaw was not something you were okay with doing.

What are you talking about? What evidence do you have that suggests that Philadelphia biglaw is a backup option at all?

[Aberzombie1892]

Penn. I'm not sure why some posters seem to believe that Penn has to rely on Philadelphia. Only 20% of the class stays instate - 40% in NY, 10% in DC, 10% in CA, etc.

[sinfiery]

What are you talking about? What evidence do you have that suggests that Philadelphia biglaw is a backup option at all?

I never implied it was a backup plan, only that a significant number of Penn grads work in Pennsylvania and from anecdotal viewings of Pennsylvania biglaw firm associates, they are.dominated by Penn grads.

Could they have gotten NYC? Based on the way we interpret data on TLS, the conservative basis is to assume no. Thus if you want NYC/CA biglaw, NYU or CLS is clearly the better option.

@Aber: 20% is a huge number, even after adding the only precursor.

[SportsFan]

What are you talking about? What evidence do you have that suggests that Philadelphia biglaw is a backup option at all?

I never implied it was a backup plan, only that a significant number of Penn grads work in Pennsylvania and from anecdotal viewings of Pennsylvania biglaw firm associates, they are.dominated by Penn grads.

Could they have gotten NYC? Based on the way we interpret data on TLS, the conservative basis is to assume no. Thus if you want NYC/CA biglaw, NYU or CLS is clearly the better option.

@Azer: 20% is a huge number, even after adding the only precursor.

Dominated? Nah. Most are a good mix of Penn/Temple/Villanova. Hardly dominated by Penn. I've heard from friends who work in Philly biglaw that they don't love hiring Penn kids anyway, because they think too many of them are Ivy league elitists (basically), so its more about personality and fit than grades (so yes, people with terrible grades may be able to get Philly biglaw, but its so far from a guarantee that its hardly easier than NYC, and its a small market anyway).

As for the MBA, is there an HYS-MVP distinction between Wharton and Stern? Wharton getting way more lay prestige is the only reason I ask.

It's not just lay prestige with Wharton. Wharton is in the highest echelon with Harvard and Stanford. Stern isn't part of the M7, which is basically like the T14 in b-school world. If the MBA is seriously part of your goals, OP, and not just a nice thing to have, it's Penn and Columbia only.

You said you have two years of WE, OP. That's on the very low side for Wharton if you weren't doing consulting or banking. I would see if Penn would be willing to hook you up with folks on the Wharton side who could give you a general sense of what they look for in accelerated MBA candidates who are coming from the law school. If it looks like you have a fair shot, I'd go to Penn. The Wharton MBA is that valuable.

This exactly. My SO went to Penn and had a few friends who tried to get into Wharton, even individuals with 4+ years were denied. Depending on your WE, Wharton may not be a realistic option. Like the above poster said, if a MBA is something that is seriously in your goals I'd go for Penn. Actually I would go for Penn either way because its COA is lower than your other options and still gives you the same type of opportunities.

I remember hearing it was easier to get into the 3 year JD/MBA program (the MBA side of it, anyway) because they're trying to really push that, but I have no idea if it actually is.

[Sheffield]

. . . .a significant number of Penn grads work in Pennsylvania. . could they have gotten NYC? . . . the conservative basis is to assume no.

There are a limited number of schools, including Penn, that will fast track you into NYC BL. Your part is to score Median or above. No matter the school, if it is less than median, better hope your charm is intact.

For some the definition of BL is exclusive to NYC, others it is a firm that starts at + $135K. I would not put too much stock in a school’s decimal percentage point capability of getting you NYC. I know a number of cohorts that would (and have) passed on a NYC offer to work somewhere else, as long as the compensation is at BL numbers. Finally, keep in mind, those starting at a boutique making $150K are not tracked the same way as someone making the same amount at a V-100. So, those school BL percentages are swayed by a number of personal factors.

[HBBJohnStamos]

Could they have gotten NYC? Based on the way we interpret data on TLS, the conservative basis is to assume no. Thus if you want NYC/CA biglaw, NYU or CLS is clearly the better option.

What are you talking about. You have no logic or data to back this up. You just said that it wasn't a back up, but those that work in Philly can't get NYC.

In fact, the basic logic on TLS is really that NYC is the easiest market to get from any T14, despite whatever home market the school is located in.

Aren't you a 0L...?

[Tekrul]

It seems like you know what you want.

Have you considered that pursuing a JD/MBA will throw off your recruitment cycle by 1 year? I'm not sure how it works, but it is something you should be aware of.

Also, you will not directly benefit from it, but Columbia Business School just received a 100 million dollar pledge and they will be building an entirely new building in the Manhattanville project. For posterity.

[jbagelboy]

Could they have gotten NYC? Based on the way we interpret data on TLS, the conservative basis is to assume no. Thus if you want NYC/CA biglaw, NYU or CLS is clearly the better option.

What are you talking about. You have no logic or data to back this up. You just said that it wasn't a back up, but those that work in Philly can't get NYC.

In fact, the basic logic on TLS is really that NYC is the easiest market to get from any T14, despite whatever home market the school is located in.

Aren't you a 0L...?

Sinf is operating on some basic metrics that we can assume to be fair. Not perfect, not always reliable, but fair for an analysis. Lets assume certain markets are considered better outcomes than others. If we assume all members of a class who want biglaw (Σ) are seeking the most prestigious/best paid positions available, then they will seek NYC, with an epsilon ε > 0 going elsewhere for true "personal preference". Penn has a δ > ε > 0 margin working at firms in Philly which tend to be less prestigious and less well paid. Operating on our first condition, this margin ω = Σ - lim(ε->0)(δ - ε)) b/t personal preference and succeeding in NYC are those in the class that failed to get NYC biglaw. So if ω is less than NYC/CLS biglaw numbers in NYC, then sinf can claim that the new york schools have better NYC placement.

[jbagelboy]

. . . .a significant number of Penn grads work in Pennsylvania. . could they have gotten NYC? . . . the conservative basis is to assume no.

There are a limited number of schools, including Penn, that will fast track you into NYC BL. Your part is to score Median or above. No matter the school, if it is less than median, better hope your charm is intact.

Obviously being above median is crucial. But the whole point is that your statement above is not quite as true at CLS. plenty of cls grads who wind up below median and network well still get biglaw offers, usually more than one. there is a sliver of the class somewhere between median and lowest quartile that some of the less picky firms will still draw from CLS but probably not from Penn. However, this is nearly irrelevant to almost everyone. The opportunities are "basically" identical.

[sinfiery]

Sinf is operating on some basic metrics that we can assume to be fair. Not perfect, not always reliable, but fair for an analysis. Lets assume certain markets are considered better outcomes than others. If we assume all members of a class who want biglaw (Σ) are seeking the most prestigious/best paid positions available, then they will seek NYC, with an epsilon ε > 0 going elsewhere for true "personal preference". Penn has a δ > ε > 0 margin working at firms in Philly which tend to be less prestigious and less well paid. Operating on our first condition, this margin ω = Σ - lim(ε->0)(δ - ε)) b/t personal preference and succeeding in NYC are those in the class that failed to get NYC biglaw. So if ω is less than NYC/CLS biglaw numbers in NYC, then sinf can claim that the new york schools have better NYC placement.

This. (nicely worded, lol)

the self-selection excuse fails in comparison to raw statistical data (look on LSN for grad placement by location).

I assumed these constraints on self selection (NYC>PA) because that is the OPs constraints. You can tell me anecdotal data that every Penn grad could have gotten NYC, but statistically, someone with OPs goals sans fit and MBA should take NYU or CLS at equal cost over Penn because you rid yourself of anecdotal data that serves only to equalize the schools but not overtake either.

in short, added risk for not even the potential of gain is bad.

Yes, I'm a 0L. Thus me relying on stats alone

[jbagelboy]

Sinf is operating on some basic metrics that we can assume to be fair. Not perfect, not always reliable, but fair for an analysis. Lets assume certain markets are considered better outcomes than others. If we assume all members of a class who want biglaw (Σ) are seeking the most prestigious/best paid positions available, then they will seek NYC, with an epsilon ε > 0 going elsewhere for true "personal preference". Penn has a δ > ε > 0 margin working at firms in Philly which tend to be less prestigious and less well paid. Operating on our first condition, this margin ω = Σ - lim(ε->0)(δ - ε)) b/t personal preference and succeeding in NYC are those in the class that failed to get NYC biglaw. So if ω is less than NYC/CLS biglaw numbers in NYC, then sinf can claim that the new york schools have better NYC placement.

This. (nicely worded, lol)

the self-selection excuse fails in comparison to raw statistical data (look on LSN for grad placement by location).

I assumed these constraints on self selection (NYC>PA) because that is the OPs constraints. You can tell me anecdotal data that every Penn grad could have gotten NYC, but statistically, someone with OPs goals sans fit and MBA should take NYU or CLS at equal cost over Penn because you rid yourself of anecdotal data that serves only to equalize the schools but not overtake either.

in short, added risk for not even the potential of gain is bad.

Yes, I'm a 0L. Thus me relying on stats alone

as one more factual side note to support the above assumption, Penn's recent rise in employment figures can be explained best by a regional economic growth in Philly/Pittsburgh met areas as pharmaceuticals and service industries are finally assuaging the crippled steel market from the 80s to the recent recession. Their chances at NYC aren't relevant to this growth

[Revolver066]

fuckin lol at all this "analysis". They have similar outcomes and place into similar markets. Go to whichever is cheaper or to whichever one you prefer.
(also the idea that NYC biglaw is objectively > Philly biglaw is hilarious to me. With that obscene COL I'd choose Penn 135 over NY 160 any day)

[sinfiery]

Lol, just giving a Penn a nice little kick. Their getting too much good press on TLS as of late. OPs decision has already been made.

[Rahviveh]

Penn. I'm not sure why some posters seem to believe that Penn has to rely on Philadelphia. Only 20% of the class stays instate - 40% in NY, 10% in DC, 10% in CA, etc.

How much scholarship money would you need to choose an inferior school like NYU over an Ivy like Penn?

[KingFish]

Let's all go outside and go for a walk or something.

[Kalinda]

I remember hearing it was easier to get into the 3 year JD/MBA program (the MBA side of it, anyway) because they're trying to really push that, but I have no idea if it actually is.

This was a couple of years ago, and I think because of the economy several people in his class applied to Wharton in the hopes of boosting their resume/marketability. I can't speak to how easy it is to be admitted now, but it seemed quite competitive in 2011.

[SportsFan]

Sinf is operating on some basic metrics that we can assume to be fair. Not perfect, not always reliable, but fair for an analysis. Lets assume certain markets are considered better outcomes than others. If we assume all members of a class who want biglaw (Σ) are seeking the most prestigious/best paid positions available, then they will seek NYC, with an epsilon ε > 0 going elsewhere for true "personal preference". Penn has a δ > ε > 0 margin working at firms in Philly which tend to be less prestigious and less well paid. Operating on our first condition, this margin ω = Σ - lim(ε->0)(δ - ε)) b/t personal preference and succeeding in NYC are those in the class that failed to get NYC biglaw. So if ω is less than NYC/CLS biglaw numbers in NYC, then sinf can claim that the new york schools have better NYC placement.

This. (nicely worded, lol)

the self-selection excuse fails in comparison to raw statistical data (look on LSN for grad placement by location).

I assumed these constraints on self selection (NYC>PA) because that is the OPs constraints. You can tell me anecdotal data that every Penn grad could have gotten NYC, but statistically, someone with OPs goals sans fit and MBA should take NYU or CLS at equal cost over Penn because you rid yourself of anecdotal data that serves only to equalize the schools but not overtake either.

in short, added risk for not even the potential of gain is bad.

Yes, I'm a 0L. Thus me relying on stats alone

as one more factual side note to support the above assumption, Penn's recent rise in employment figures can be explained best by a regional economic growth in Philly/Pittsburgh met areas as pharmaceuticals and service industries are finally assuaging the crippled steel market from the 80s to the recent recession. Their chances at NYC aren't relevant to this growth

No. Just... no.

(And I love Philly a lot)

[Bronck]

Overall placement seems to be comparable in recent years. I imagine firms will dig a little deeper into CLS, but Penn is a good option at this price, especially if you can get Wharton. I think the more tangible advantage CLS (and NYU) have over non-T6 schools is placement into V10 firms, but at the end of the day any market paying firm is a pretty good outcome from law school.

[SportsFan]

FWIW, these are my thoughts on my Penn places so well. Feel free to disagree/agree.

From all the reading/research I've done on biglaw hiring from the non-HYS T13 (sorry Georgetown, but your placement is on a different level right now...) ITE, the way it seems to seems to work is that the top ~35% are very likely to get biglaw, the bottom ~10% are out of luck because of grade cutoffs and most of the difference in placement power between schools is what happens to that middle ~55%. Penn's big advantage is because its the only east coast T14 (outside of Harvard) that isn't in the NYC or DC areas. Having ~20% of the class stay in PA (many/most of whom have biglaw, and most of whom weren't seriously interested in other markets), in addition to the kids going to NYC, DC, and CA like at every other T14, forces the NYC firms to go deeper into the class (since while they obviously don't have to hire anyone, they're not gonna go to OCI and then waste their money by not even trying to hire people), and ultimately creates more opportunities in the middle 55%. The V10 may have lower cutoffs at Columbia or NYU (taking more people from medianish rather than needing to be top 1/3 for them at Penn, if not top 10%), but that gain is offset by CN's much larger class sizes, and its not like the V10 are hiring THAT much from them.

The moral of the story (as I see it)? Having a more diverse class makes it easier for the medianish people to get what they want.

tl;dr version: Having a lot of the class stay in PA makes NYC firms go deeper into Penn's class.

[Bronck]

^

I mean, the conservative estimate (intentional high-end estimation for class size and participants) for CLS EIP is that 27% of participants accepted offers with V10 firms, so I'd say it's a pretty healthy amount.

[SportsFan]

^

I mean, the conservative estimate (intentional high-end estimation for class size and participants) for CLS EIP is that 27% of participants accepted offers with V10 firms, so I'd say it's a pretty healthy amount.

I can PM you more tomorrow if you're curious, but from the very limited information I have, I think it's around 15-20% going to the V10 from Penn. So probably around a 10% difference, which is offset because of the amount of people we place in Philly biglaw.

[Bronck]

^

I mean, the conservative estimate (intentional high-end estimation for class size and participants) for CLS EIP is that 27% of participants accepted offers with V10 firms, so I'd say it's a pretty healthy amount.

I can PM you more tomorrow if you're curious, but from the very limited information I have, I think it's around 15-20% going to the V10 from Penn. So probably around a 10% difference, which is offset because of the amount of people we place in Philly biglaw.

Cool, I'd actually be interested in seeing what stats you have.