Northwestern (150k) vs Columbia (75k) Forum

[BigZuck]

This was exactly my situation 4 years ago. I chose CLS. I chose poorly. Take NU.

/thread

I don't really see the utility in fighting back against the consensus. I mean, why even ask the question then?

Seriously, if you want to do Columbia, do Columbia. YOLO

[untar614]

This was exactly my situation 4 years ago. I chose CLS. I chose poorly. Take NU.

/thread

I don't really see the utility in fighting back against the consensus. I mean, why even ask the question then?

Seriously, if you want to do Columbia, do Columbia. YOLO

heheh, not trying to fight back against the consensus. If I was set on CLS, I wouldn't have even bothered making this thread. I'm not looking for validation of any particular choice, just want to make sure all my bases are covered. I'm quite open to taking NW, and if I can't get CLS to budge, it seems like that's what I'm leaning toward. But I still have concerns about not necessarily being "safe" if I fall at or slightly below median at NW (esp. if I decide I hate IP lit) while I should be even if I were a bit more below at CLS. Both of these are pretty hard for me to think of turning down. Damn you Yale for not accepting me and throwing need-based aid at me! Either way I'll probably stick with the June retake to see if I can sneak into Harvard and see what aid they might give me. I'd also go for with UChicago with $$ somewhere in the middle, but they have higher gpa standards, so that may not be an option even if I 180 the retake.

timbs, what year are you now? wondering what ur current situation is.

[timbs4339]

This was exactly my situation 4 years ago. I chose CLS. I chose poorly. Take NU.

/thread

I don't really see the utility in fighting back against the consensus. I mean, why even ask the question then?

Seriously, if you want to do Columbia, do Columbia. YOLO

heheh, not trying to fight back against the consensus. If I was set on CLS, I wouldn't have even bothered making this thread. I'm not looking for validation of any particular choice, just want to make sure all my bases are covered. I'm quite open to taking NW, and if I can't get CLS to budge, it seems like that's what I'm leaning toward. But I still have concerns about not necessarily being "safe" if I fall at or slightly below median at NW (esp. if I decide I hate IP lit) while I should be even if I were a bit more below at CLS. Both of these are pretty hard for me to think of turning down. Damn you Yale for not accepting me and throwing need-based aid at me! Either way I'll probably stick with the June retake to see if I can sneak into Harvard and see what aid they might give me. I'd also go for with UChicago with $$ somewhere in the middle, but they have higher gpa standards, so that may not be an option even if I 180 the retake.

timbs, what year are you now? wondering what ur current situation is.

I graduated and am clerking. I struck out at EIP and it took me almost 2 stressful years to find a permanent job. I like my job, and it's sufficiently "prestigious" and all that, but let me tell you, with the amount of debt I have to pay off on a salary half as much as a biglaw associates I wish I'd just taken the full ride to NW.

[M458]

Ok so unless I can somehow manage to pull more money from cls, nw seems to be the answer everyone is giving. Just to clarify though, everyone seems to base this off ip secure. What if I find I hate ip lit and don't do ip ( or would really like to do something else)? I've heard it involves lots of travel, and if this is true I'd definitely rather avoid it - I'd do it if I have to to get the job, but would much rather not. Would that change anything?

And on location, its not a big deal to me.I wouldn't mind chicago but I think I'd prefer nyc. More important to me though is being able to stay in one place. I'm really sick of moving cities and having to start over so many times.

I don't think you're going to know if you hate IP Litigation or not until you actually graduate and are working in it, unfortunately. When are the deposit due dates at both schools?

Since you actually prefer NYC, I don't think NU is as much of a risk here as you think. Read through the NU questions thread on Ask a Student and it seems that if you do end up at median or below, if you bid smart (read: NYC firms with large SA classes) and get your mass mailing on, you'll get a market-paying job. The danger would be if you were set on Chicago or another non-NYC market (California and even more dangerous at other secondary markets), since that's how it seems a lot of median/below-median people end up stricking at OCI.

[untar614]

I don't think you're going to know if you hate IP Litigation or not until you actually graduate and are working in it, unfortunately. When are the deposit due dates at both schools?

Since you actually prefer NYC, I don't think NU is as much of a risk here as you think. Read through the NU questions thread on Ask a Student and it seems that if you do end up at median or below, if you bid smart (read: NYC firms with large SA classes) and get your mass mailing on, you'll get a market-paying job. The danger would be if you were set on Chicago or another non-NYC market (California and even more dangerous at other secondary markets), since that's how it seems a lot of median/below-median people end up stricking at OCI.

Yeah, ur def right on the IP lit. I'm hoping if I do that patent bar I can land a 1L SA in IP lit to test it out (plus score some coin).

And yeah, that does make sense re: markets.

Guess I'll email CLS today and see what I can swing. But yeah, if I got SAs 1L and 2L, I could graduate NW with very little debt, which would be awesome. Also, shooting you a fb pm.

I graduated and am clerking. I struck out at EIP and it took me almost 2 stressful years to find a permanent job. I like my job, and it's sufficiently "prestigious" and all that, but let me tell you, with the amount of debt I have to pay off on a salary half as much as a biglaw associates I wish I'd just taken the full ride to NW.

yikes, that's rough. sorry for asking this, but any idea why you struck out?

[M458]

This is wrong. You can go from CLS to work in Chicago as long as you have a legitimate reason to. Firms will dig just as deeply into the class at CLS for their Chicago offices as they would NU, but they will screen you just to make sure you aren't trying to use it as leverage for another offer in NYC, SF, ect, which you might not experience from NU. This doesn't hurt your chances though, it just means you have to demonstrate a reason or tie, which shouldn't be hard if actually DO want to work there.

It's actually just all about 1L grades. CLS is a national school and if you get the grades it won't be a weaker shot in any major market.

Nobody is arguing this and that's not what he said. His point was that if OP has no other Chicago ties (which seems quite possible), NU gives OP one in a way that CLS does not.

Correct--that's what I was trying to explain.

Also, just out of curiosity, I did a quick search on the top 10 Chicago firms (as somehow determined by Vault) and on the attorney search page looked at how many CLS grads worked in the Chicago office vs. NU grads:

Kirkland: 10 CLS, 113 NU
Sidley: 4 CLS, 37 NU
Skadden: 3 CLS, 27 NU
Mayer Brown: No drop-down criteria for education
Latham: 1 CLS, 19 NU
Jenner: 4 CLS, 22 NU
Winston & Strawn: 1 CLS, 28 NU
Jones Day: 2 CLS, 24 NU
McDermott: 1 CLS, 44 NU
Bartlit Beck: No drop-down criteria for education

So at 8 of the top 10 Chicago firms, tally is 26 CLS grads vs. 314 NU grads. Self-selection is obviously at play here, but for those who really want to end up at a top Chicago firm (which actually doesn't apply to OP as it looks like he'd prefer NY), a full-ride at NU is as close to an ideal situation as you're going to get.

[untar614]

yeah, well, as alluded to earlier, if I'm at NW, depending on how things go, I may prefer to stay in Chicago if possible to avoid having to uproot myself again.

As for deposit deadlines, I already paid Northwestern's and I have til next wednesday for Columbia.

btw, i recalculated the coa's for if I were living very frugally and incorporating SA possibilities, and CLS's were more tolerable than the 200k originally cited, but NW's were like hardly anything.

currently drafting an email. btw, do I send this to the financial aid office, office of admissions, or both?

[timbs4339]

I don't think you're going to know if you hate IP Litigation or not until you actually graduate and are working in it, unfortunately. When are the deposit due dates at both schools?

Since you actually prefer NYC, I don't think NU is as much of a risk here as you think. Read through the NU questions thread on Ask a Student and it seems that if you do end up at median or below, if you bid smart (read: NYC firms with large SA classes) and get your mass mailing on, you'll get a market-paying job. The danger would be if you were set on Chicago or another non-NYC market (California and even more dangerous at other secondary markets), since that's how it seems a lot of median/below-median people end up stricking at OCI.

Yeah, ur def right on the IP lit. I'm hoping if I do that patent bar I can land a 1L SA in IP lit to test it out (plus score some coin).

And yeah, that does make sense re: markets.

Guess I'll email CLS today and see what I can swing. But yeah, if I got SAs 1L and 2L, I could graduate NW with very little debt, which would be awesome. Also, shooting you a fb pm.

I graduated and am clerking. I struck out at EIP and it took me almost 2 stressful years to find a permanent job. I like my job, and it's sufficiently "prestigious" and all that, but let me tell you, with the amount of debt I have to pay off on a salary half as much as a biglaw associates I wish I'd just taken the full ride to NW.

yikes, that's rough. sorry for asking this, but any idea why you struck out?

Where to begin? My grades were "medianish" (.03 below), I had no work experience, and I stupidly bid on a secondary market where, even though I had ties, there were very few jobs to begin with.

My advice is: if after one year "Columbia Law School" is the only thing on your resume that separates you from the pack, you're at risk of striking out. You have the IP hook, which is a rarity among students, so you'll probably get a biglaw job based on that and then can try to work in another group during the summer and get an offer from them. Although bio is tough without an advanced degree. I know a very successful IP attorney with bio degree but he had a Phd.

[RoyBatty]

You are getting good advice in this thread. A bio, chem or EE background changes things substantially in the right direction if you are willing to focus on IP Lit (PhD. preferred, but an UG degree from a good program should do right now). Retaking the test in hopes of cracking "HYS" and/or money ot UofC with your GPA seems like a waste of effort and a year of employment as a lawyer. For what you want to do, the marginal benefit is nothing anyway. You also don't know how long it will be the case that patent recruiting remains strong. If this doesn't work for you, don't go to law school.

[Cobretti]

Dude just go to NU and graduate debt free so you can be my rich friend in Chicago while I pay down ~240k of debt, fin.

but GL if you go to Columbia too

[untar614]

Dude just go to NU and graduate debt free so you can be my rich friend in Chicago while I pay down ~240k of debt, fin.

but GL if you go to Columbia too

You actually gonna stick around in Chi-town? I thought you were thinking about heading back to Cali post-law school.

You are getting good advice in this thread. A bio, chem or EE background changes things substantially in the right direction if you are willing to focus on IP Lit (PhD. preferred, but an UG degree from a good program should do right now). Retaking the test in hopes of cracking "HYS" and/or money ot UofC with your GPA seems like a waste of effort and a year of employment as a lawyer. For what you want to do, the marginal benefit is nothing anyway. You also don't know how long it will be the case that patent recruiting remains strong. If this doesn't work for you, don't go to law school.

I was talking about retaking in June for moar $$ or H from the waitlist. Didn't plan on taking a year off. I will say though I'm glad I was able to actually completely flip this forum's general sentiment from the typical "you can always retake and do better, law school will still be here, it's just one year" to a year being not worth the opportunity cost which I agree with since I think even with a 180, my GPA still makes Yale a tough one. And yeah, I know just the B.S. for bio makes patent prosecution pretty much off the table. Idk bout lit, how that may play out. I'd get an advanced degree if I could - hell I'd really like to just for my own slf-satisfaction s I am someone who still fancies himself a scientist - but it just isn't worth the time (ok, if I could do it in 1 year, I would, but I don't think any place offers that).

[Cobretti]

Dude just go to NU and graduate debt free so you can be my rich friend in Chicago while I pay down ~240k of debt, fin.

but GL if you go to Columbia too

You actually gonna stick around in Chi-town? I thought you were thinking about heading back to Cali post-law school.

For the sake of this argument I'm sticking around Chi-town

[twenty]

I wouldn't wait a year -- if you're looking to do IP law, I think NU with a full ride might even beat H.

If you absolutely hate IP, you can leave in a year or less coming out of NU. If you absolutely hate IP coming out of Columbia, you probably have to stick with it for a few years.

[untar614]

Dude just go to NU and graduate debt free so you can be my rich friend in Chicago while I pay down ~240k of debt, fin.

but GL if you go to Columbia too

You actually gonna stick around in Chi-town? I thought you were thinking about heading back to Cali post-law school.

For the sake of this argument I'm sticking around Chi-town

That's really reassuring. See this is the crap I'm talkin about. Can't even keep the same friends for more than 3 years cuz either they move or I have to. Tired of it. If I go there, ur bidding Chicago. ALL YOUR BID ARE BELONG TO ME!!!

I wouldn't wait a year -- if you're looking to do IP law, I think NU with a full ride might even beat H.

If you absolutely hate IP, you can leave in a year or less coming out of NU. If you absolutely hate IP coming out of Columbia, you probably have to stick with it for a few years.

y does this keep happening?!

[Cobretti]

For the sake of this argument I'm sticking around Chi-town

That's really reassuring. See this is the crap I'm talkin about. Can't even keep the same friends for more than 3 years cuz either they move or I have to. Tired of it. If I go there, ur bidding Chicago. ALL YOUR BID ARE BELONG TO ME!!!

damnit...90s internet humor... my only weakness! but how'd you know?

[twenty]

y does this keep happening?!

Because NU (150k) for IP is on par/better than the outcomes from H.

[untar614]

damnit...90s internet humor... my only weakness! but how'd you know?

I know everyone's weakness. Part of my mad lawyering skillz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIiO7bL2yFI&t=0m30s

y does this keep happening?!

Because NU (150k) for IP is on par/better than the outcomes from H.

No I mean people keep telling me not to wait a year even though I've already stated I don't plan on it.

[bk1]

y does this keep happening?!

Because NU (150k) for IP is on par/better than the outcomes from H.

No I mean people keep telling me not to wait a year even though I've already stated I don't plan on it.

Because for most people the best advice is waiting a year. And even you could benefit from waiting a year, but people say not to because in your case (unlike most) waiting a year isn't worth it overall. They also say it because the people who would actually gain by waiting a year also say they aren't going to wait a year.

[Agent]

+1 to everything that DF said in this thread.

[FlowBro]

This thread is very reassuring for me, not trying to be selfish... Just sayin'

[untar614]

Hey guys, so new possibility. Probably outing myself if Dean Hoye reads these boards, lol. I've been on the Duke Priority Reserve for a while, and recently was asked to have a phone conversation with Dean Hoye. Anyway, so after that with him inquiring as to my interest and what I'm comparing them to, I decided since I'm in a good position anyway, I'd just let him know what my 2 majors offers were. So he emailed me back today basically asking what kind of funding it would take to make me feel comfortable turning down those 2 offers. I take that to mean there is definite potential for scholarship money he thinks could compete. So what should I say? Obviously I'd like a Mordecai, but I am passed interview time for that, so I think if I asked for that he may just say "sorry, can't do that" and not bother counter-offering (I haven't been officially accepted yet, so there is no risk to their yield here).

Thoughts?

[jbagelboy]

I wouldn't go to Duke over NU @ 150K (or CLS @ 75K, for that matter) for anything short of full tuition named scholarship. I don't think they are still handing out the Mordecai... then again, I greatly prefer NYC or Chicago to Durham, and that difference in living standard is worth the added CoL to me.

[Ti Malice]

Hey guys, so new possibility. Probably outing myself if Dean Hoye reads these boards, lol. I've been on the Duke Priority Reserve for a while, and recently was asked to have a phone conversation with Dean Hoye. Anyway, so after that with him inquiring as to my interest and what I'm comparing them to, I decided since I'm in a good position anyway, I'd just let him know what my 2 majors offers were. So he emailed me back today basically asking what kind of funding it would take to make me feel comfortable turning down those 2 offers. I take that to mean there is definite potential for scholarship money he thinks could compete. So what should I say? Obviously I'd like a Mordecai, but I am passed interview time for that, so I think if I asked for that he may just say "sorry, can't do that" and not bother counter-offering (I haven't been officially accepted yet, so there is no risk to their yield here).

Thoughts?

Well, the truth is that it wouldn't make sense to attend for anything less than NU's $150K scholarship. So that's what I'd say. If he says they can't do that, then there's no loss to you. You wouldn't have gone there anyway, right?

[09042014]

Hey guys, so new possibility. Probably outing myself if Dean Hoye reads these boards, lol. I've been on the Duke Priority Reserve for a while, and recently was asked to have a phone conversation with Dean Hoye. Anyway, so after that with him inquiring as to my interest and what I'm comparing them to, I decided since I'm in a good position anyway, I'd just let him know what my 2 majors offers were. So he emailed me back today basically asking what kind of funding it would take to make me feel comfortable turning down those 2 offers. I take that to mean there is definite potential for scholarship money he thinks could compete. So what should I say? Obviously I'd like a Mordecai, but I am passed interview time for that, so I think if I asked for that he may just say "sorry, can't do that" and not bother counter-offering (I haven't been officially accepted yet, so there is no risk to their yield here).

Thoughts?

Unless you have ties and want to work in the Duke region, I'd take nothing less than 135k.

[untar614]

Hey guys, so new possibility. Probably outing myself if Dean Hoye reads these boards, lol. I've been on the Duke Priority Reserve for a while, and recently was asked to have a phone conversation with Dean Hoye. Anyway, so after that with him inquiring as to my interest and what I'm comparing them to, I decided since I'm in a good position anyway, I'd just let him know what my 2 majors offers were. So he emailed me back today basically asking what kind of funding it would take to make me feel comfortable turning down those 2 offers. I take that to mean there is definite potential for scholarship money he thinks could compete. So what should I say? Obviously I'd like a Mordecai, but I am passed interview time for that, so I think if I asked for that he may just say "sorry, can't do that" and not bother counter-offering (I haven't been officially accepted yet, so there is no risk to their yield here).

Thoughts?

Well, the truth is that it wouldn't make sense to attend for anything less than NU's $150K scholarship. So that's what I'd say. If he says they can't do that, then there's no loss to you. You wouldn't have gone there anyway, right?

Yeah, you're right, I think I'd go Duke over Northwestern at equal cost due to certain things specific to my interests, but for less than that, I don't think I would (oh, if only I had ties to Houston...) choose it over either of these options, so I'm just gonna ask for the whole shebang and see what happens. If it comes up nil, it's no major loss I suppose.