UVA sticker vs. Michigan $$ Forum

[BigZuck]

Also even if UVA is gaming they are substantially out placing Michigan into big law/clerkships just like almost all of the rest of the lower t14.

I'm just asking that you run some actual numbers once in a while. Michigan outplaced UVA and all but five other schools in AIII clerkships last year (source). And the inference you might be expected to draw from the fact that UVA self-employs 15+% of its graduating class is that it likely would not be outplacing many T14 schools in general employment if it didn't game the system.

Cool edit.

But now that I think of it I see what you did there. You called me out for doing something funky with numbers (when I didn't) and then went on to claim that Michigan had better clerkship placement than UVA. However what you did not acknowledge was that

A. Michigan was only three tenths of a percent higher that year, which is not statistically significant.
B. That this year UVA placed 14.3% versus Michigan at 8.5%
C. Anything that I was saying about big law

So what you're actually doing with the bruinfan account is making a caricature of a buffoonish troll who egregiously engages in what he claims the other person is doing. That would also explain the huge lapses in reading comprehension, ignoring key points in the other person's argument, and the generally combative posts. When you realize what you were doing all along that's actually kind of funny, well played.

So this must be your alt, what's your main screenname?

[gnuwheels]

I no big fan of UVA mainly because of their sky high school funded stat, but on the other hand there is no longer a MVP (the M is gone) and then there's this... perhaps a sign of the future direction of Mich. Just sayin'...

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-school-rankings/

This is what i'm saying. Look, I of all people don't want Mich to be in decline or have a bad rep, i'm a student here. But in addition to all these rankings putting Mich low in the T14, I have friends at "peer" schools like Northwestern, Duke, Penn and things just seem a lot better for people at or below median.

I think Michigan is struggling to deal with whatever is causing their decline, whether it be the its lack of proximity to major markets or their difficulty in attracting star academics to come out here or whatever else, and I think they're putting in a good faith effort. But the fact is its just not the school it used to be. I think a lot of the prestige it manages to hang onto comes from a lot of older people in the field who remember when michigan was ranked up with Yale and Harvard, so the reason I said the 20 years thing is because I think in 20 years a lot of those people won't be around and its reputation will adapt.

[megagnarley]

I love how there are so many people who are 0'L's (and occasionally 1'L's) constantly speaking in absolutes about the implications of numbers that are anything other than airtight and anything other than immune to unseen variables to some N'th degree as they relate to a field to which those selfsame individuals have almost no knowledge other than what they've amassed from their own findings and the findings of other equally as inexperienced posters in this forum. Not trying to hate, I love you all, but the fact of the matter is no one really knows the prognosis for Michigan, the school funded validity of UVA, et al. and mincing the numbers to dust is an exercise in futility. Making any decisions based on this seems categorically foolish at best and everyone here seems to treat those minor percentages as the gospel delivered by the man himself.

Back on topic: I don't think UVA is worth 60k more than Michigan. That is a lot of money. The DC factor I am admittedly ignorant about, but on the whole I think that $$ makes Mich an easy choice.

[Legen..waitforit]

I was in almost the exact same situation, OP, and I chose UVA. (Chump change at a lower ranked T14 vs. no money at UVA). By the way things have been going for Michigan as of late and their steady Georgetown-esque demise, I would fork up the extra 60K to go to a better school. Is UVA an overall better law school than Mich? If you do your research and read posts by educated TLSer, you'll find that the answer is absofckinlutely.

[ChiefPresidentTaft]

Lots and lots of bad advice in this thread. It is probably too late now, but OP really should have used the Michigan $$ to negotiate aid from UVA as it is obvious he/she prefers UVA. So you want to spend $54K more now to attend UVA? Might be a good move if you are wanting DC after graduation, but for that difference in cost Michigan is the better choice in NYC. Even if the money was even, Michigan would be better for Chicago and west coast.

And just LOLWUT at those boasting UVA is now superior to Mich. UVA is shady as shit. Isn't this the same school that has had issues with 3Ls protesting during Admitted Students Weekend? - "Virginia Law $40,000 a Year and NO JOB." Difference is that UVA sweeps this shit under the rug, while Mich posts for everybody to see.

[curious66]

+1. I think the Michigan trolling on this thread is stupid. Also remember that UVA has tons of school funded jobs that they are counting to boost rankings -- whereas Michigan has been really transparent about it.

[NoodleyOne]

+1. I think the Michigan trolling on this thread is stupid. Also remember that UVA has tons of school funded jobs that they are counting to boost rankings -- whereas Michigan has been really transparent about it.

UVA's Kennedy fellowship has been common since 2010, while I believe it hasn't been a (significant) factor in the USNWR rankings until this year. Also, UVA has opened up a bit about the program: It's 30ish k for one year in a legal, PI field. Of the 40 of these given out to the class of 2010, 35 responded to the survey sent to them by UVA, and all were in FT employment, with 32 in FT:Bar Passage required (read, legal jobs), 2 in FT: JD advantage, and 1 in "other". 32/40 isn't bad and personally did a lot to calm my fears about the program. I wish they were more open about it, but with the information available it doesn't seem like an awful outcome. Also note that the jobs you get are jobs that qualify for LRAP, so that's another bonus. Is it a "preferred outcome"? For most that qualify, probably not, but it does seem to lead to a good chance at one down the line.

Also, beyond that, UVA's placement in the Biglaw+AIII has been significantly higher than Michigan's lately. I don't think Michigan is a bad school, but they have CLEARLY been underperforming there. I applaud their increased transparency, but that doesn't make things seem a hell of a lot rosier.

That being said, 60k is probably enough to make me choose Michigan over UVA, all things being equal, but I honestly don't like either option. Still, to say that there isn't a very clear argument in favor of UVA to be had is silly. It's justifiable with the information we have available.

[BigZuck]

+1. I think the Michigan trolling on this thread is stupid. Also remember that UVA has tons of school funded jobs that they are counting to boost rankings -- whereas Michigan has been really transparent about it.

UVA's Kennedy fellowship has been common since 2010, while I believe it hasn't been a (significant) factor in the USNWR rankings until this year. Also, UVA has opened up a bit about the program: It's 30ish k for one year in a legal, PI field. Of the 40 of these given out to the class of 2010, 35 responded to the survey sent to them by UVA, and all were in FT employment, with 32 in FT:Bar Passage required (read, legal jobs), 2 in FT: JD advantage, and 1 in "other". 32/40 isn't bad and personally did a lot to calm my fears about the program. I wish they were more open about it, but with the information available it doesn't seem like an awful outcome. Also note that the jobs you get are jobs that qualify for LRAP, so that's another bonus. Is it a "preferred outcome"? For most that qualify, probably not, but it does seem to lead to a good chance at one down the line.

Also, beyond that, UVA's placement in the Biglaw+AIII has been significantly higher than Michigan's lately. I don't think Michigan is a bad school, but they have CLEARLY been underperforming there. I applaud their increased transparency, but that doesn't make things seem a hell of a lot rosier.

That being said, 60k is probably enough to make me choose Michigan over UVA, all things being equal, but I honestly don't like either option. Still, to say that there isn't a very clear argument in favor of UVA to be had is silly. It's justifiable with the information we have available.

This.

As a non-T14er with no dog in this fight, I think Noodley is right on.

[Renne Walker]

When I was an OP considering schools I remember that there was a lady dean (or perhaps prof) who had a blog that was usually insightful (I once had it bookmarked). Has she delved into the Michigan slide?