Michigan v. Chicago v. UVA Forum

[Emma.]

Really, the message here should be "almost no one gets to be a legal academic from any school."

HYS place 40-50% of of their candidates on the job market into tenure track positions every year. If you want academia bad enough, it's attainable. Most people just aren't serious enough about it.

This is ridiculous and misleading.

You really should stop mentioning H's academia placement in the same breath as Y's. H is far closer to Chi than it is to Y in terms of academia placement.

[Mal Reynolds]

Doorkeeper is becoming the Taipei Mort of Harvard. NAGL

[SportsFan]

Doorkeeper is becoming the Taipei Mort of Harvard. NAGL

"Becoming"? Become.

[20141023]

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[TripTrip]

Even so, rad lulz is right in saying that it would be foolish to attend law school if your only goal is to become a law professor and you wouldn’t be happy doing any sort of legal work other than that.

I agree, mostly because if I had two classes where one of my professors argued cases before the supreme court and the other was taught by a 4L, there's no way I would take that straight grad--->academia professor seriously.

[20141023]

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[bl1234]

Wow- I was not expecting to see this many comments. To respond to everyone who directed questions/comments to me:

1. I didn't get into Yale. If I had, I would be going for sure.
2. I am still considering a PhD but you definitely don't need one to teach
3. I thought about retaking because my LSAT was below my average practice test scores and I think I could do better, but ultimately decided against it.
4. I know I want to be a law professor because I love research and I've looked into the job description a lot. I am not very familiar with legal teaching specifically but I have enjoyed what teaching opportunities I've had in Political Science.
5. You should look at Brian Leiter's statistics on legal teaching. According to his numbers, Chicago places just barely fewer academics/class size than Harvard and Stanford. Yale is by far the best, but definitely not the only option.
6. I won't go unemployed if I don't get a teaching position. There are lots of things to do in law- academia is just my top choice
7. I know the odds are low but I'm going to go for it
Here are some statistics on teaching placement:
http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2006 ... hing.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

[20141023]

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[Bronck]

5. You should look at Brian Leiter's statistics on legal teaching. According to his numbers, Chicago places just barely fewer academics/class size than Harvard and Stanford. Yale is by far the best, but definitely not the only option.

Leiter is a horrible troll.

Look at FlightoftheEarls' post on academia placement that I posted earlier.... http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... a#p4188514

[SportsFan]

5. You should look at Brian Leiter's statistics on legal teaching. According to his numbers, Chicago places just barely fewer academics/class size than Harvard and Stanford. Yale is by far the best, but definitely not the only option.

Leiter is a horrible troll.

Look at FlightoftheEarls' post on academia placement that I posted earlier.... http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... a#p4188514

Egregious pro-Yale trolling.

[Doorkeeper]

Really, the message here should be "almost no one gets to be a legal academic from any school."

HYS place 40-50% of of their candidates on the job market into tenure track positions every year. If you want academia bad enough, it's attainable. Most people just aren't serious enough about it.

This is ridiculous and misleading.

You really should stop mentioning H's academia placement in the same breath as Y's. H is far closer to Chi than it is to Y in terms of academia placement.

It's not misleading at all. I'm just stating the placement facts. CCN are all around 30-40% in placement too in a given year (NYU's placement in 2011 was like 60% or something). Obviously on a per capita basis Y is farther from H than Chi is closer to H. I'm not disputing that.

Also, Leiter's numbers haven't been updated in 3-4 years because Chicago has had a few bad years since 2009. You need to look at Solum + Prawfsblawg's Entry Level Hiring Reports from 2008-2013 to get the best picture.

[Mal Reynolds]

And how about that diluted faculty at Chicago?! Amirite key master?

[Emma.]

If you want academia bad enough, it's attainable. Most people just aren't serious enough about it.

The above is misleading at best. When you provide inaccurate information to 0Ls you are devaluing this site for everyone.

[bl1234]

Wow- I was not expecting to see this many comments. To respond to everyone who directed questions/comments to me:

1. I didn't get into Yale. If I had, I would be going for sure.
2. I am still considering a PhD but you definitely don't need one to teach
3. I thought about retaking because my LSAT was below my average practice test scores and I think I could do better, but ultimately decided against it.
4. I know I want to be a law professor because I love research and I've looked into the job description a lot. I am not very familiar with legal teaching specifically but I have enjoyed what teaching opportunities I've had in Political Science.
5. You should look at Brian Leiter's statistics on legal teaching. According to his numbers, Chicago places just barely fewer academics/class size than Harvard and Stanford. Yale is by far the best, but definitely not the only option.
6. I won't go unemployed if I don't get a teaching position. There are lots of things to do in law- academia is just my top choice
7. I know the odds are low but I'm going to go for it
Here are some statistics on teaching placement:
http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2006 ... hing.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

1. Yup.
2. True - read my post above about defining "legal academia."
3. This is your choice - I made a similar choice, but I am also hoping to get into biglaw and not heading off to law school assuming I will get academia.
4. Great.
5. I hope you are aware that Brian Leiter works at Chicago, so although I wouldn't call him biased, he might be biased...
6. Yeah.... no guarantees on this either, even at Yale (where you are not going).
7. See 5.

5. Yeah, I know. The numbers he chooses to report definitely might be those with a pro-Chicago bias, but I've also read through his methods for constructing each of the rankings and I feel comfortable trusting them (taken with some caution still, of course).
6. Sure, but I think the people not getting jobs coming out of CCN are both not at the top of their class and picky about where they end up. Job prospects for larger law firms in AZ, WA, CO, and OH are pretty good coming out of a place like Chicago because most graduates of top five schools headed for big law want to work in NY/DC/CA/Chicago(for UChi grads). I think I can do fine with grades and I'd like to work in the West if I don't end up in academia.
7. The odds would be low even if I was going to HYS... I'm not going into this expecting it to be easy nor am I assuming that it's a sure thing. I don't think that attending UChi means that my goal is dead, though.

p.s. Did I see in a different thread that you're going to Chicago? I think I remember seeing your cat avatar elsewhere

[Emma.]

And how about that diluted faculty at Chicago?! Amirite key master?

[UtilityMonster]

Doorkeeper is becoming the Taipei Mort of Harvard. NAGL

"Becoming"? Become.

When schools have law students that come onto this board and troll for their school, that is a sign that something is wrong with the school.

[The Brainalist]

5. You should look at Brian Leiter's statistics on legal teaching. According to his numbers, Chicago places just barely fewer academics/class size than Harvard and Stanford. Yale is by far the best, but definitely not the only option.

Leiter is a horrible troll.

Look at FlightoftheEarls' post on academia placement that I posted earlier.... http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... a#p4188514

FWIW, Most of leiter's work on the subject was before he started at Chicago, back when he was a professor at UTexas.

Secondly, FlightoftheEarls' post seems to overstate the power of certain schools, especially harvard and Columbia, by showing a graduating class size significantly lower than the true size. Take a look at the class sizes here: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

You'll see that while it shows Chicago's class size as pretty close (203 vs. 200), Earls' post is way off as to the others:Harvard (583 vs. 550), Columbia (375 vs. 455), and berkeley (275 vs. 305).

Correcting for these things, the placement 2003 to 2011 would put Chicago about where its reputation would suggest, a middle ground between harvard and the rest of the T14:


T14 2003-2011 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score / +or- from Leiter / Per Capita fluctuation in 08-111 relative to 03-07
Ya 173 / 205/ .843
St 59 / 181 / .325
Ha 187 / 583 / .320
Ch 48 / 203 / .236
Co 72 / 455 / .158
NY 67 / 466 / .143
Pe 24 / 274 / .087
Mi 53 / 378 / .140
Be 42 / 305 / .137
Vi 37 / 377 / .098
Du 16 / 219 / .073
NU 14 / 286 / .048
Co 8 / 188 / .042
Gt 26 / 637 / .040

YaT14 2008-2011 Entry Level Hiring Data:
Total Hires / Class Size / Per Capita Score
Ya 87 / 205 / .424
St 30 / 181 / .165
Ha 86 / 583 / .147
Ch 19 / 203 / .093
Co 33 / 455 / .072
NY 34 / 466 / .072
Pe 10 / 274 / .036
Mi 31 / 378 / .082
Be 22 / 305 / .072
Vi 11 / 377 / .029
Du 6 / 219 / .027
NU 7 / 286 / .024
Co 4 / 188 / .021
Gt 10 / 637 / .015

This is, though, assuming that his placement numbers are right, which I cannot confirm, and don't assume they are (all these numbers are probably under-inclusive in reality, as neither Earl nor leiter could possibly keep track of every hire at every law school). It also doesn't take into account pre-existing PhDs, which I think leiter or someone else had pointed out that berkeley had a high number.

Also, I think the graduating class includes transfers, but I think that is fair, especially when one considers that the first year law class fluctuates year to year, but the schools have a lot more control over the ultimate desired class size with transfers, and since transfers could just as easily seek faculty positions.