Int. Law... Don't worry, I know why and what I want to do! Forum

[wannabelawstudent]

Anything is possible at Zambo com

Wow....I remember this site from at least 5 years ago and it hasn't changed at all.

[TheNextAmendment]

Take the LSAT then come back. Your plans will inevitably change based on your score. (at least I hope so)

[timbs4339]

I can't tell if this is worse than the guy who wanted to go to CLS to be GC of "foundations where rich people do charitable stuff with their money."

[Zambo]

Thank you! I appreciate all the school options and insight ya'll have provided. I definitely will think through it all, but I'm not completely sold on the no law school route. What are the harms of going? Why would simply getting an MPP be/look better? Why do most politicians, lobbyists, ect go to law school then and not public policy school?

[09042014]

Thank you! I appreciate all the school options and insight ya'll have provided. I definitely will think through it all, but I'm not completely sold on the no law school route. What are the harms of going? Why would simply getting an MPP be/look better? Why do most politicians, lobbyists, ect go to law school then and not public policy school?

1) I don't think they do.

2) Law school is like finishing school for rich people who have nothing better to do

3) Tons of people leave law because it fucking blows, and go into something else. That doesn't mean a JD helped them get there.

[ManoftheHour]

Alright alright allow to clear a few things up here before the bash war continues! ha When I say international law I don't want to work for the ICC or World Bank or anything of that nature really. I more so want to use the skills garnered from ls and apply that to fighting an injustice I see in the world. I've been looking into joint degree programs where along with a JD I would work towards a masters of public policy or something along those lines. As of now, I don't see myself prosecuting war criminals or "dictators" for their innate corruption which makes clean water inaccessible, as a poster said earlier. In fact, I'm not sure I even see myself in a formal lawyer postion. I'm interested in politics and public policy and while non-profits are doing a lot of good, I want to allocate funds to build 10,000 wells, not just 10 (just an example, don't attack me for statistical fallacies). Almost all politicians are or were lawyers, and while I don't necessarily see myself as a politician, I do think policy, or lobbying, or something along that route is the real way to fully eradicate the problem - not just give them water bottles.

A couple responses;
Inregards to the "lots of experience" - I was speaking in terms relative to other undergrads. I currently speechwrite for two sitting mayors and am working on stump speeches for three seperarte state legislator campaigns for the upcoming '16 election. I've interned at Not for Sale, Think Together, and Invisible Children and have a paid internship lined up at World Vision this summer. I don't know one undergrad whose resume looks like that. So yes, I believe, as well as my pre-law advisor, that I do have "lots" of experience when compared to other undergrads. I'm sorry you got hung up on one word duder.

In regards to my emphasis , I primarily study logic, reasoning, and rhetorical theory if that helps.

That being said, do you guys know any schools that have good or respected international, human rights, or social justice law programs? I was looking into UCLA, U of Washington and Pepperdine all who seem to have good programs and are top 50 schools. Also, what is the general consensus on joint programs? Are they frowned upon, respected, worth an extra year?

Also I appreciate those of you who helped out with some good advice and questions!

If you care about human rights, just do this:

http://hrcolumbia.org/

[timbs4339]

Thank you! I appreciate all the school options and insight ya'll have provided. I definitely will think through it all, but I'm not completely sold on the no law school route. What are the harms of going? Why would simply getting an MPP be/look better? Why do most politicians, lobbyists, ect go to law school then and not public policy school?

Because they went to law school, then GOT JOBS, then did other things. The key in that equation is that they got jobs, and the jobs were meaningful.

Eliot Spitzer was a politician with a JD. He also clerked and then worked at Paul, Weiss because he went to Harvard, which allowed him to go to the DAs office, which provided a springboard for his run at AG. It wasn't the JD that got him there, it was the fact he worked at a prestigious firm which opened up other options.

The point now is that many JDs aren't getting decent jobs.

[Winston1984]

OP, the only reason you should ever go to law school is to become a lawyer. Why would you attend a professional school if you had no interest in working in that profession? I think your goals can be accomplished much easier and without a 200k debt.

[md22]

Alright alright allow to clear a few things up here before the bash war continues! ha When I say international law I don't want to work for the ICC or World Bank or anything of that nature really. I more so want to use the skills garnered from ls and apply that to fighting an injustice I see in the world. I've been looking into joint degree programs where along with a JD I would work towards a masters of public policy or something along those lines. As of now, I don't see myself prosecuting war criminals or "dictators" for their innate corruption which makes clean water inaccessible, as a poster said earlier. In fact, I'm not sure I even see myself in a formal lawyer postion. I'm interested in politics and public policy and while non-profits are doing a lot of good, I want to allocate funds to build 10,000 wells, not just 10 (just an example, don't attack me for statistical fallacies). Almost all politicians are or were lawyers, and while I don't necessarily see myself as a politician, I do think policy, or lobbying, or something along that route is the real way to fully eradicate the problem - not just give them water bottles.

A couple responses;
Inregards to the "lots of experience" - I was speaking in terms relative to other undergrads. I currently speechwrite for two sitting mayors and am working on stump speeches for three seperarte state legislator campaigns for the upcoming '16 election. I've interned at Not for Sale, Think Together, and Invisible Children and have a paid internship lined up at World Vision this summer. I don't know one undergrad whose resume looks like that. So yes, I believe, as well as my pre-law advisor, that I do have "lots" of experience when compared to other undergrads. I'm sorry you got hung up on one word duder.

In regards to my emphasis , I primarily study logic, reasoning, and rhetorical theory if that helps.

That being said, do you guys know any schools that have good or respected international, human rights, or social justice law programs? I was looking into UCLA, U of Washington and Pepperdine all who seem to have good programs and are top 50 schools. Also, what is the general consensus on joint programs? Are they frowned upon, respected, worth an extra year?

Also I appreciate those of you who helped out with some good advice and questions!

I don't think that law school is the right fit for you based on the quote above. Also, barring HYS, I don't think a JD will allow you to accomplish what you think it will. Go to law school if you can see yourself being an attorney. One of the worst reasons to get a JD is because "almost all politicians are or were lawyers".

[jbagelboy]

-college student pads resume for 3 years with cool pseudo-"legal" internships, clubs, coursework after naively supportive parents say they will do great things

-as junior, college student talks to naively supportive college adviser about applying to law school who says they are perfect for it and will do great things

-said student goes online to research law school, finds TLS

-said student makes post on TLS about future in law, has dreams crushed and smashed by bitter 0Ls/1Ls

-student quits errant potential law career and applies to fulbright and boston consulting group in fall instead, prospers.

this is our fine contribution to the universe

[worldtraveler]

OP I hire interns for an organization that does work on access to clean water and healthcare in Africa. I would throw your resume in the trash.

Do you have experience in developing countries, actually seeing firsthand what the problems are? If you don't, then you need to get that before law school. I don't mean you take a service trip to go dig a well, I mean you get a job for months or even years working in the developing world, if this is what you really want. If you can't find that, then even a job teaching English in a developing country would be good. Peace Corps is excellent, too.

I'm not sure why or how a law degree is the best use of your time if this is your goal. Public policy people do much more work on this, same with people in energy and resources. It sounds like you're more interested in international development than in law. The jobs and the qualifications required are actually quite different. Of all the big NGOs I know of working on access to clean water and sanitation, I really can't think of any lawyers working on it. From what I gather you need more of an environmental/science background to break into the field, too.

There are opportunities for lawyers to do this kind of work in the US, although they are few and hard to come by.

[TheNextAmendment]

-college student pads resume for 3 years with cool pseudo-"legal" internships, clubs, coursework after naively supportive parents say they will do great things

-as junior, college student talks to naively supportive college adviser about applying to law school who says they are perfect for it and will do great things

-said student goes online to research law school, finds TLS

-said student makes post on TLS about future in law, has dreams crushed and smashed by bitter 0Ls/1Ls

-student quits errant potential law career and applies to fulbright and boston consulting group in fall instead, prospers.

this is our fine contribution to the universe

epic

[Redamon1]

Yes water law exists, as do domestic public regulations and international cooperation for sanitation and basic human needs. But it may not be the most effective lever of change. A law degree would help, but what might help more is an MPP or MBA. Business solutions in support of sustainability and development is where it's at. Check it out.

http://hbr.org/2009/09/why-sustainabili ... nnovation/

http://www.acumenfund.org/investments/p ... folio.html

Also, work for an NGO for a few years before going to grad school. That can only help you refine your professional goals and make you a stronger applicant.

[Wahoos]

Just do BIGRIPARIANLAW @ V10

[NinerFan]

Thank you! I appreciate all the school options and insight ya'll have provided. I definitely will think through it all, but I'm not completely sold on the no law school route. What are the harms of going? Why would simply getting an MPP be/look better? Why do most politicians, lobbyists, ect go to law school then and not public policy school?

Harms:
1) Unless you kill the LSAT and boost your GPA mightily or have a trust fund/rich generous, lots of debt. Lots.
2) Wasting 3 years of your life?
3) 1 and 2 weren't big enough harms?

You seem like a lot of kids I meet during ASWs or that get in contact with me through some old HS friend or something. You want to do-good and you think a JD is a shiny credential that can be used to achieve this goal.

But, you don't need the JD. The jobs that require the JD that will also fit in with what you want to do are FEW. Few and far between.
As an anecdotal example, a friend of mine I graduated with got a masters in the field she was interested in and is actually doing international work now (international development, financing entrepreneurs in third-world countries, etc). Their company hired a JD recently, but not for law stuff. That law degree is being completely wasted, they're not being compensated any extra because they had it, and they could have, in all likelihood, gotten that job without wasting three years at a T-20 school. And, she didn't need a JD either.

So really, you're what, 20, 21? Take a year or two, intern somewhere, and figure out if there are actual jobs in what you want to do and if they're seriously going to hire an entry-level attorney who has no work experience.

[dirtrida2]

Hey all, I'm a little new here so please excuse any faults or naiveness. From what I've read on these boards, there is a slight stigma against international law due to its vagueness and lack of specificity. Well, unlike most I know I specificially want to work in Human Rights/Social Justice Law, and more specifically working to provide water to the peoples of this world. Before I get laughed at for being some undergrad idealist, allow me to say I have wanted to do this for my entire life, have lots of political and NGO experience, and am extremely dedicated to fixing what I see as a massive injustice in our modern world.

That being said, I'm not dead set on a certain medium for change. I do feel strongly though that having a strong basis in law and public policy will have a positive impact on my long-term goals.

Thus, I was wondering if ya'll could point me in the right direction towards schools with good international law programs, faculty, reasources, externships, ect. Or just any other held/advice you can provide me with would be much appreciated! Maybe setting my goals high, but I'm shooting for a t14 school - with the exception of HYS as theres no way I'm getting in them haha

Some quick things about me;
-Junior, major in speech communicaiton with an emphasis in argumentation and persuasion
-minors in political science and psychology
-nationally ranked debator
-speechwriter for numerous mayors and locally elected officials
-teaching a college course next semester
-TA'd for a class this semester
-3.55 gpa
-lsat pt at 165, shooting for over 170 by the october test

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks for the help!

So you'd say you're a master debater?

[Geist13]

What in the world does getting a law degree have to do with increasing access to water? How does a law degree enable you to do this? Why can't you do this without a law degree?

[ph14]

OP: Go to the University of Denver School of Law and join their Water Law Review: http://duwaterlawreview.com/

[Zambo]

Yes water law exists, as do domestic public regulations and international cooperation for sanitation and basic human needs. But it may not be the most effective lever of change. A law degree would help, but what might help more is an MPP or MBA. Business solutions in support of sustainability and development is where it's at. Check it out.

http://hbr.org/2009/09/why-sustainabili ... nnovation/

http://www.acumenfund.org/investments/p ... folio.html

Also, work for an NGO for a few years before going to grad school. That can only help you refine your professional goals and make you a stronger applicant.

Thank you! I appreciate all the school options and insight ya'll have provided. I definitely will think through it all, but I'm not completely sold on the no law school route. What are the harms of going? Why would simply getting an MPP be/look better? Why do most politicians, lobbyists, ect go to law school then and not public policy school?

Harms:
1) Unless you kill the LSAT and boost your GPA mightily or have a trust fund/rich generous, lots of debt. Lots.
2) Wasting 3 years of your life?
3) 1 and 2 weren't big enough harms?

You seem like a lot of kids I meet during ASWs or that get in contact with me through some old HS friend or something. You want to do-good and you think a JD is a shiny credential that can be used to achieve this goal.

But, you don't need the JD. The jobs that require the JD that will also fit in with what you want to do are FEW. Few and far between.
As an anecdotal example, a friend of mine I graduated with got a masters in the field she was interested in and is actually doing international work now (international development, financing entrepreneurs in third-world countries, etc). Their company hired a JD recently, but not for law stuff. That law degree is being completely wasted, they're not being compensated any extra because they had it, and they could have, in all likelihood, gotten that job without wasting three years at a T-20 school. And, she didn't need a JD either.

So really, you're what, 20, 21? Take a year or two, intern somewhere, and figure out if there are actual jobs in what you want to do and if they're seriously going to hire an entry-level attorney who has no work experience.

Appreciate the insight thanks guys. The Harvard article was a good read.

[Zambo]

What in the world does getting a law degree have to do with increasing access to water? How does a law degree enable you to do this? Why can't you do this without a law degree?

Short answer (cause I don't feel like writing out the long one ha) you probably can do this without a JD. My logic was that having a JD would simply increase one's efficiency or impact - which I still believe to be true. However, as people have posted thus far, the (small) benefits gained from going to law school do not outweigh the debt and waste of three years.

[Zambo]

So you'd say you're a master debater?

Yes, I'm aware I spelled "debater" wrong, I was in class typing fast not really paying attention. haha If you were actually asking the question and not setting me up for a cheap laugh, I just got back from CEDA and the NDT... soooo if you define master as competing on the top national circuit.. then sure.

[dirtrida2]

So you'd say you're a master debater?

Yes, I'm aware I spelled "debater" wrong, I was in class typing fast not really paying attention. haha If you were actually asking the question and not setting me up for a cheap laugh, I just got back from CEDA and the NDT... soooo if you define master as competing on the top national circuit.. then sure.

Wasn't being a grammar troll - I assume you don't see the similarity between masterbater and masterdebater? /facepalm

Either way, just relax - I believe in you!

[rad lulz]

What in the world does getting a law degree have to do with increasing access to water? How does a law degree enable you to do this? Why can't you do this without a law degree?

Short answer (cause I don't feel like writing out the long one ha) you probably can do this without a JD. My logic was that having a JD would simply increase one's efficiency or impact - which I still believe to be true. However, as people have posted thus far, the (small) benefits gained from going to law school do not outweigh the debt and waste of three years.

I don't really see how reading a bunch of crappy 1800s tort cases or learning what passes for "business law" in law school is gonna increase your impact or efficiency.

Law school doesn't even really do a good job of preparing you to be a lawyer, much less anything else.

[spleenworship]

don't go to law school.

get MPH or similar.

/thread

[Zambo]

So you'd say you're a master debater?

Yes, I'm aware I spelled "debater" wrong, I was in class typing fast not really paying attention. haha If you were actually asking the question and not setting me up for a cheap laugh, I just got back from CEDA and the NDT... soooo if you define master as competing on the top national circuit.. then sure.

Wasn't being a grammar troll - I assume you don't see the similarity between masterbater and masterdebater? /facepalm

Either way, just relax - I believe in you!

hahaha oh man sorry about that! Please excuse my defensive nature, I just expected another wise-crack!