It's that time of year again...NYU vs. Cornell Forum

[dixiecupdrinking]

I appreciate any feedback.

Currently, the two options that I'm considering are NYU with a $50K total scholarship and Cornell with a $105K total scholarship. My goal is NYC biglaw, and NYC is my dream city to live in as I love urban environments and hate small towns. I also want to live somewhere with an active gay scene/population. I also have about 50K saved up specifically for law school. NYU is in my dream location and has better access to the top firms, but Cornell will save me a lot of money. I feel that situation is one where there isn't a definitive clear choice, so I'm posting here. Thank you all very much.

If NYC biglaw is really all you care about, I think Cornell runs away with it. They have very similar NYC biglaw placements, and Cornell at that price will save you about $100k after interest/COL is factored in (vs NYU @$50k). And when you decide the second week you're there that you hate biglaw, Cornell gives you the option to leave sooner since you'll have less debt to pay off.

Are you sure that you can't get NYU to up the ante a little bit? If they do, you could leverage that back against Cornell again. Given your numbers and the scholarship offers on the table, it seems like you have some room to play. You could probably pit Cornell against Michigan, then Michigan against NYU, and finally NYU back to Cornell.

Your seat deposit isn't due for a while, and you have plenty of time to do a discount double check.

I don't think this is going to work.

Cost of living is overrated. Just don't live in the Village. It isn't another $50k.

Really think NYU versus Cornell ought to be a more-than-$50k decision.

[jingosaur]

I live in Manhattan in close proximity to NYU law and if you prefer the city life, I would strongly suggest NYU. I think the chance of getting Biglaw is much higher if you self-select for it and it's 3 years of your life that you don't have to spend in a college town. With no interest on your COA, it's best to spend the extra money and live your dream.

[cahwc12]

Cost of living is overrated. Just don't live in the Village. It isn't another $50k.

Really think NYU versus Cornell ought to be a more-than-$50k decision.

While I don't outright disagree it should be more than a $50k decision (I'd probably take Cornell if it were only $50k difference), the fact is that it's more, and this coupled with roughly equivalent employment outcomes in the only job OP cares about (NY Biglaw) makes Cornell an easy decision to me.

Tuition at Cornell for 2012: $55,220/yr
Tuition at NYU for 2012: $51,150/yr

Cornell 3yr Tuition at 3% annual increase: $170,680
NYU 3yr Tuition at 3% annual increase: $158,100

Cornell estimated 3yr COL: $57,690
NYU estimated 3yr COL: $73,104

Cornell 3yr COA: $228,370
NYU 3yr COA: $231,204

Less their (initial?) scholarship offers:

Cornell 3yr COA: $123,370
NYU 3yr COA: $181,204

Factor in 6.8% loan rate and a five year payment plan, assuming OP both wants to and is able to stay in biglaw for 5 years:
Cornell Monthly loan payment: $1669.74 @ 96 payments with $36,924.94 interest
NYU Monthly loan payment: $2454.49 @ 96 payments with $354,234.76 interest

for a grand total of:
Cornell COA+interest: $160,294.94
NYU COA+interest: $235,438.76

for a difference of: $75,143.82

Also note the friendly assumptions I had to make here in order to do these calculations:

• 1. Tuition increases 0% from 2012-2013 to 2013-2014 (and it will).
  2. Tuition increases by only 3% for the remaining two years (and it's likely to increase more than that).
  3. Loan rates will remain frozen and not increase.
  4. OP obtains NY Biglaw
  5. OP decides to pay off his loans in 5 years.
  6. OP doesn't dislike biglaw enough to leave for 5 years.
  7. OP is able to stay in biglaw for 5 years and is not laid off.
  8. OP can survive in manhattan off the remaining ~$50k/yr.
  9. I excluded over $1500/yr in fees that NYU separates from its listed tuition (because while at that point we're just nitpicking, it's still $5k more OP has to pay).

The falsity of any/all of those assumptions (excepting possibly #4) will make attending Cornell even more cost effective than the $75k projected difference (hence my closer to $100k estimate). I really think Cornell is the home run here, and OP has given no indication that $105k is Cornell's final offer (or $50k is NYU's final offer for that matter).

[dixiecupdrinking]

I am a little tired of seeing all these cost calculations that include interest that will be paid nearly a decade from now but seem to completely discount the time value of having all of your living expenses paid in New York City (or anywhere for that matter) for three years. It's disingenuous.

[cahwc12]

I am a little tired of seeing all these cost calculations that include interest that will be paid nearly a decade from now but seem to completely discount the time value of having all of your living expenses paid in New York City (or anywhere for that matter) for three years. It's disingenuous.

It's real money. You aren't "having your living expenses paid". Your future self is lending you that money. The smart thing to do is minimize borrowing, not give your future self a swift kick in the nuts and steal his credit cards.

[moonman157]

Thanks for the responses everyone! Yeah, I have the cost difference around 70K, without taking into account specific cost differences (like the fact that I would need to buy a car if I went to Cornell and all the expenses that come along with that), as well as some other funds I will be using to help lower the cost of law school. As far as negotiating, do you think it's worth a try? Cornell is my highest offer, so I don't know what to say to them to negotiate, and I already appealed to NYU and nothing has changed since they increased my offer, so how do I go about doing that? Also, I'm a K-JD...will this shut me out of V10 firms? I ask because NYU's placement in V10 firms is a factor I am taking into account, but if I'm at a great disadvantage then should I not even focus on this consideration and treat the schools like the place equally well into NYC biglaw?

[dixiecupdrinking]

Trust me, I know it is real money. I'll be paying it back in six months. My point is that $75,000 in a decade is not the same as $75,000 today, not to mention that you have to pay for your cost of living whether you borrow or earn the money. The numbers are simply not as stark as they look, is all. Debt aversion is smart to a point but I think this is past that point.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Thanks for the responses everyone! Yeah, I have the cost difference around 70K, without taking into account specific cost differences (like the fact that I would need to buy a car if I went to Cornell and all the expenses that come along with that), as well as some other funds I will be using to help lower the cost of law school. As far as negotiating, do you think it's worth a try? Cornell is my highest offer, so I don't know what to say to them to negotiate, and I already appealed to NYU and nothing has changed since they increased my offer, so how do I go about doing that? Also, I'm a K-JD...will this shut me out of V10 firms? I ask because NYU's placement in V10 firms is a factor I am taking into account, but if I'm at a great disadvantage then should I not even focus on this consideration and treat the schools like the place equally well into NYC biglaw?

Re: V10, no, the work experience issue won't be a big deal.

[ph5354a]

I would go with NYU. I love(d) NYU/NYC too, and if the difference for me was only $70,000, I probably would've made a different decision, but for me it was more like $100,000. If you liked Ithaca even a little bit, then Cornell would be a great option for you, but the difference isn't so huge as to justify giving up the slight increase in career outcomes and your clear preference for NYC. It comes down to the fact that unlike me, you aren't crazy to give up the scholarship at Cornell, so you should just go with your gut.

ETA: Fwiw I tried to negotiate with Cornell, but failed. I didn't really have a compelling appeal though so I didn't have any other comparable offers. Though you were successful negotiating with NYU, so maybe you should give it a shot at Cornell too

[bananapeanutbutter]

Definitely NYU, even if you only want NYC big law. NYU is more likely to get individuals looking to leave New York as it's reputation goes father, and gets people back to their home markets. I think the equal #'s have self selection. Look at the overall placement #'s, and NYU is better. It's not a huge difference but worth the 50k especially given the higher QOL for most.

[Rahviveh]

I probably wouldn't pay that much money just to live in NYC instead of Ithaca, but this really depends on how convinced you are that NYU is superior to Cornell for biglaw placement. Firms may go deeper into NYU's class but its possible the large class size mitigates that effect. Then again, there's also probably way more people self-selecting into PI at NYU compared to Cornell.

I also wouldn't make a choice based on one year of ABA data. Tough decision.

[gaucholaw]

why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

[BigZuck]

why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

Evidence for the assertion that MVPB are all consistently better than D for clerkship opportunities?

[Rahviveh]

why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

Evidence for the assertion that MVPB are all consistently better than D for clerkship opportunities?

Finally TLS has a Duke troll! Lol

[BigZuck]

rickgrimes and beachbum never fully stepped up into this role so somebody had to.

But seriously I'm just trying to figure out what some of these distinctions are based on. Because oftentimes it doesn't seem to be reality.

[Revolver066]

I'd pick Cornell. Fairly decent numbers, and around 70k is nothing to scoff at. Also, looking purely at numbers I dont see much of anything that warrants paying an extra 70k NYU. Maybe that self selection thing is true, but it's nebulous at best, especially considering 17 percent of the class or so got school funded jobs.

That being said if the TLS mantra of "NYU somehow must be better" argument, and living in the city means 70kish to you, I wouldnt say thats an awful decision, just one I wouldnt make.

[banjo]

I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

[thelawyler]

I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

The elective is with all 1Ls and curved just as harshly, so it is effectively the same thing.

[rickgrimes69]

why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

I'd like to point out that Duke has placed more Fed clerk spots than MVPB for the last three years.

Also, the whole "HYSCCN" thing needs to stop, it has no basis in reality.

rickgrimes and beachbum never fully stepped up into this role so somebody had to.

But seriously I'm just trying to figure out what some of these distinctions are based on. Because oftentimes it doesn't seem to be reality.

I do what I can

[Revolver066]

Also, the whole "HYSCCN" thing needs to stop, it has no basis in reality.

[Lincoln]

I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

Disclosure: Cornell 3L here.

The above is true. We work a LOT. But the extra semester of civ pro, especially, has certainly come in handy for me, so I wouldn't have wanted to miss out on it. OP, if you wanted PI, I could see NYU being a better choice; Cornell just doesn't place well in PI. For BigLaw, however (even V10), there just isn't a difference worth $70k. (One data point: The ratio of Cornell students to NYU students in my V5 summer class was exactly proportional to the class sizes at each school.) That leaves one question: Is it worth the money for you to live in NYC instead of Ithaca? When answering that question, keep in mind that you will (if that's what you want) spend your 1L and 2L summers in NYC, meaning you'll get some of the benefit, and some of the cost.

[Lincoln]

why is cornell so bad at AIII clerking? Doesn't really seem to follow.

Not sure. However, they have poured significant resources into it the last few years from what current 3Ls tell me. Judging from antecdotes, we seemed to do pretty well this year. However, we don't match even the lower T14 schools that consistently post good numbers (eg UVA).

This is where imho opinion a distinction needs to be made within the lower T-14.... for biglaw I agree that UVA and Cornell are "peer schools" However, when it comes to clerking and getting v-10, its not that GULC NU Cornell and DUKE are bad.... they do relatively well.... its just that in regards to this specific category.... MVPB is just a higher caliber... and for clerking MVPB cannot be seen as peers with the t-14's below it

Sum:
Big LAW: non-HYSCCN schools are peers

Clerking/Academia/special snowflake stuff - there IS a distinction between MVPB and DNCG

Please list the V10 firms where MVPB are all better represented (in relation to their respective class sizes) than DNC for the classes of 2013 or 2014.

Also, for clerkships, Duke outplaces Penn, Michigan, Columbia, Berkeley, NYU.

Edit: I think gaucholaw is a 0L so therefore has no idea what s/he is talking about beyond what's found on the interwebs.

[moonman157]

I think Cornell requires you to take 4 classes + graded LRW each semester of 1L. NYU only requires 3 classes and ungraded LRW. Depending on your work style, that could make a huge difference. Edit: Actually, at NYU you only seem to have two real legal classes second semester, plus an elective and ungraded LRW.

Disclosure: Cornell 3L here.

The above is true. We work a LOT. But the extra semester of civ pro, especially, has certainly come in handy for me, so I wouldn't have wanted to miss out on it. OP, if you wanted PI, I could see NYU being a better choice; Cornell just doesn't place well in PI. For BigLaw, however (even V10), there just isn't a difference worth $70k. (One data point: The ratio of Cornell students to NYU students in my V5 summer class was exactly proportional to the class sizes at each school.) That leaves one question: Is it worth the money for you to live in NYC instead of Ithaca? When answering that question, keep in mind that you will (if that's what you want) spend your 1L and 2L summers in NYC, meaning you'll get some of the benefit, and some of the cost.

You're one of the most optimistic posters on this site, I think. It is that easy to get NYC biglaw, or even V10, from Cornell? My impression was that top 1/3 at NYU had a decent shot but at Cornell you needed to be closer to top 15%.

And location is something I go back and forth on in terms of my performance. Would I do better in NYC because I'd (most likely) be happier, or would I get distracted and not do as well? And Cornell does sound like more work, but everyone has to go through it so I guess it doesn't effect the curve?

[Lincoln]

You're one of the most optimistic posters on this site, I think. It is that easy to get NYC biglaw, or even V10, from Cornell? My impression was that top 1/3 at NYU had a decent shot but at Cornell you needed to be closer to top 15%.

And location is something I go back and forth on in terms of my performance. Would I do better in NYC because I'd (most likely) be happier, or would I get distracted and not do as well? And Cornell does sound like more work, but everyone has to go through it so I guess it doesn't effect the curve?

It's not "that easy" from any school bar HYS. But 57.9% of Cornell's c/o 2012 got BigLaw, and it improved significantly for the c/o 2013. My point wasn't that NYU doesn't place better than Cornell into firms (it does) but that the difference is not worth that much money. Any threshold of top 15% for V10s is just not true. I have several friends who were outside the top 30% (we know because that's the threshold for Dean's List) and not on LR who landed top, top firms in NYC. Let me be clear, there were plenty who had better grades than that who did not get a V10, as I'm sure there are at other T14 schools. I'm just saying it's not a threshold.

With respect to location, no one besides yourself can answer which setting will enable you to be more productive. I've benefited from being immersed in school, having a super close-knit law school community, and living a 10-minute walk from the library. Other people have hated it and found it hard to enjoy school because of it. I've loved my two summers in NYC, but knowing I'm going back makes me able to enjoy what Ithaca has to offer that NYC doesn't.

As to the coursework, as you say, it doesn't affect your grades, per se, since it's the same for everyone. However, and maybe people at other schools will disagree, I think Cornell is more work in 1L than other schools. The extra class per semester makes a difference, and graded LRW means people take it seriously. I found at my summer job that I knew way more about advanced civil procedure (territorial jurisdiction, res judicata, etc.) than the students from other schools, and I was much more familiar with the bluebook. I the knowledge level evens out over time, but the extra work, for me, came in handy.

Feel free to PM me if you're interested in details or personal anecdotes.

[gaucholaw]

look, I am a OL,... but I think too often TLS is short-sighted.... yes you can cite facts from 2010-13 or whatever, and to be fair there is merit there... but you can't completely ignore trends from going back the last half-century... my sources come from acquaintances who do/have worked v-10 been professors etc. yes they tend to be older, but their input is nevertheless imho valuable..... it just seems like too often TLS gets on these bandwagons... this year its Penn being the new "CCN" two years ago it was Boalt.... I've been on this site for four years now and I've seen people come and go with their different opinions - this is why I'm more partial towards the albeit anecdotal evidence/advice from my 10 or less distinguished acquaintances than LST graphs for one year