UGA vs. Georgia State (HELP!) Forum

[somewhatwayward]

Just to clarify, UGA does not place a larger percentage into full-time long-term than GSU....actually GSU is a little better on that front (see: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ga). UGA likely places more into prestigious positions but we're talking 15% of the class in big firms and clerkship at UGA v 10% at GSU. That is pretty marginal.

Law firm size...GSU....UGA
500+..............5.4%....6.2%
251-500:........0.5%....0.9%
101-250:........2.2%....1.8%
Fed clerk:........2.7%....7.5%
State clerk:......2.2%....5.3%
Total:..............13%.....21.7%

if you go down farther:
51-100:..........0.5%....2.6%
26-50:............0.5%....3.5%
11-25:............4.3%....8.8%
Total:.............18.3%...36.6%

IMO, not a small difference, especially if you consider that most people who clerk, especially fed clerks, go to larger firms.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

If you take out the differential of state clerks (sometimes a good outcome but often not) and attorneys in firms of 11-25 (that is usually not a good outcome), they are closer. The one place where UGA is glaringly better is federal clerkships. I'm actually surprised by how similarly they place into big law firms. Those differences are truly marginal. I would've thought UGA had an advantage there.

I am just unsure of why you chose those numbers to add together rather than looking at either the overall placement (GSU edges out UGA) or the prestigious placement (UGA 15%, GSU 10% with an edge to UGA if you want a federal clerkship although I think it is unwise to hang your hat on a 7.5% chance of a clerkship). It just seems like cherry-picking data. The overall conclusion is the same, though: overall chance of getting a job and chance of landing a big firm is about the same with UGA at 7.5% beating GSU markedly in federal clerkships.

[WanderingPondering]

Let's not just choose which numbers to look at...despite gsu having 40 less students/class than UGA, they put 25 more students in firms 2-10... Usually not a good outcome..,

[gregfootball2001]

despite gsu having 40 less students/class than UGA, they put 25 more students in firms 2-10... Usually not a good outcome..,

Well, yeah, I agree. Not a good outcome. More people in that bracket isn't a good thing.

Let's not just choose which numbers to look at.

I put all the numbers except 2-10, because as you say, that's usually a bad outcome. I'd call it less 'cherry picking' and more 'those jobs would not be a reason to go to a school.'


But let's cut out everything below 100, if you want. The schools start pretty close. After you add in the clerking numbers, however, there's a more than 8% difference there (13 to 21.7). Very true, I have no idea if these clerks are for superior, CoA, or state supreme. I know Georgia has a few state supreme interns/externs, but I have no clue about clerking numbers. But even if the only difference is 5-8% (if you're pessimistic or optimistic about state clerkships), that ends up being more than a couple of kids. Georgia costs around 3k more per year, and it costs more to live in Atlanta than Athens - price is pretty much a wash.

If you go further down the class rankings and add in 26-100, taking out the admittedly 'bad outcomes' (2-10 and 11-25), there's another 5% difference. So now the total difference is up to 10-13%.

Listen, if GSU is free, and Georgia is sticker, it's not exactly Georgia slam dunk. But at in-state sticker for both, or even some scholly at GSU, with (pessimistically) 10% more kids getting firm jobs of 26+, I'd recommend Georgia.

[WanderingPondering]

despite gsu having 40 less students/class than UGA, they put 25 more students in firms 2-10... Usually not a good outcome..,

Well, yeah, I agree. Not a good outcome. More people in that bracket isn't a good thing.

Let's not just choose which numbers to look at.

I put all the numbers except 2-10, because as you say, that's usually a bad outcome. I'd call it less 'cherry picking' and more 'those jobs would not be a reason to go to a school.'


But let's cut out everything below 100, if you want. The schools start pretty close. After you add in the clerking numbers, however, there's a more than 8% difference there (13 to 21.7). Very true, I have no idea if these clerks are for superior, CoA, or state supreme. I know Georgia has a few state supreme interns/externs, but I have no clue about clerking numbers. But even if the only difference is 5-8% (if you're pessimistic or optimistic about state clerkships), that ends up being more than a couple of kids. Georgia costs around 3k more per year, and it costs more to live in Atlanta than Athens - price is pretty much a wash.

If you go further down the class rankings and add in 26-100, taking out the admittedly 'bad outcomes' (2-10 and 11-25), there's another 5% difference. So now the total difference is up to 10-13%.

Listen, if GSU is free, and Georgia is sticker, it's not exactly Georgia slam dunk. But at in-state sticker for both, or even some scholly at GSU, with (pessimistically) 10% more kids getting firm jobs of 26+, I'd recommend Georgia.

Nice analysis. I agree with everything said here.

[somewhatwayward]

despite gsu having 40 less students/class than UGA, they put 25 more students in firms 2-10... Usually not a good outcome..,

Well, yeah, I agree. Not a good outcome. More people in that bracket isn't a good thing.

Let's not just choose which numbers to look at.

I put all the numbers except 2-10, because as you say, that's usually a bad outcome. I'd call it less 'cherry picking' and more 'those jobs would not be a reason to go to a school.'


But let's cut out everything below 100, if you want. The schools start pretty close. After you add in the clerking numbers, however, there's a more than 8% difference there (13 to 21.7). Very true, I have no idea if these clerks are for superior, CoA, or state supreme. I know Georgia has a few state supreme interns/externs, but I have no clue about clerking numbers. But even if the only difference is 5-8% (if you're pessimistic or optimistic about state clerkships), that ends up being more than a couple of kids. Georgia costs around 3k more per year, and it costs more to live in Atlanta than Athens - price is pretty much a wash.

If you go further down the class rankings and add in 26-100, taking out the admittedly 'bad outcomes' (2-10 and 11-25), there's another 5% difference. So now the total difference is up to 10-13%.

Listen, if GSU is free, and Georgia is sticker, it's not exactly Georgia slam dunk. But at in-state sticker for both, or even some scholly at GSU, with (pessimistically) 10% more kids getting firm jobs of 26+, I'd recommend Georgia.

Nice analysis. I agree with everything said here.

We are talking about someone with substantial scholarship $ to GSU in this thread v apparently little or none at UGA. I expect this question comes up pretty frequently since UGA has higher admissions standards so people admitted there would be more likely than the average GSU admittee to get a scholarship from GSU. Also, according to the most recent data, people graduate with about 12K extra debt from UGA as compared to GSU (80,000 v 68,000) and the question is which situations it makes sense to pay extra for UGA. Note: that debt will likely be higher for c/o 2016 because of tuition and COL increases.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't attend any GA school. Up until I looked at the LST data yesterday, I expected UGA to outpace GSU because UGA is generally known as a solid school throughout the US and I assumed UGA being very beloved in GA would lead to superior employment outcomes. But I should have known that that line of thinking was flawed since I have seen it disproven before (eg, Notre Dame at 60% employment).

Looking back at the LST data I noticed some further stuff, though. UGA had a 27% underemployment score compared to GSU's of 11%. OTOH, as you noted, GSU with 30% in firms of 2-10 and 34% in firms of 25 or less v. UGA with 14% in firms of 2-10 and 23% in firms of 25 or less is pretty bad also. Looking at both the underemployment and the small firm stats together makes me think that UGA grads may be holding out for better employment than firms of 2-10 in greater numbers than GSU grads. If this were true, though, it suggests that the type of jobs available to those 27% are the small firm jobs, so if they took them rather that staying underemployed, that would drive up UGA's small firm percentage.

I stick by my original conclusion that they offer about the same chance of getting a long-term full-time legal job and of getting a big firm job but UGA is better at placing into federal clerkships (and better at placing into state clerkships of unknown value), but I would add that GSU runs you a greater risk of landing in a small firm with a low salary while UGA runs you a greater risk of being underemployed also with a low salary. GSU students borrow 12K less than UGA students. This is a pretty mixed-bag of data to me. I do not think UGA runs away with it here. I would welcome opinions from other people on this conclusion.

[splittinghairs]

I stick by my original conclusion that they offer about the same chance of getting a long-term full-time legal job and of getting a big firm job but UGA is better at placing into federal clerkships (and better at placing into state clerkships of unknown value), but I would add that GSU runs you a greater risk of landing in a small firm with a low salary while UGA runs you a greater risk of being underemployed also with a low salary. GSU students borrow 12K less than UGA students. This is a pretty mixed-bag of data to me. I do not think UGA runs away with it here. I would welcome opinions from other people on this conclusion.

I question the conclusion that GSU and UGA have about the same big law placement based on 2011 LST big firm score alone.

The way to tell your chances of getting biglaw is to figure out what the GPA/class rank cutoffs that firms are using to interview 2Ls during OCI or stated differently how deep into the class are firms going into.

As a 2L whos spoken to 2Ls from all of the Georgia Schools the reponse i've gotten is approximately top 10%(GSU) top 20%-25%(UGA) and top 25%-30%(Emory) for firms in giving out screening interviews. This does not mean that 10% or 20% or 25% of the corresponding schools get a 2L Summer Associate position or end up with offers but the cutoffs are a great indicator of the relative difficulty of getting the 2L SA. In terms of Fed clerkships at UGA and Emory, i think generally only Law Review +/or top 15% will get the chance at UGA and Emory. This means that many ppl who probably were able to secure 2L SA are the same ppl who are able to land fed clerkships. Therefore, those that decide on Fed clerkships forego biglaw upon graduation and take clerkship instead. That is why UGA bigfirm score seems to be barely over GSU's, but that does not mean that the relative biglaw placements are equal.

But if you do want to look at data then you should add up NLJ 250 + fed clerkships to get approx difficulty of getting biglaw and you shouldn't confine yourself to 2011 only.

Heres the full extent of NLJ 250 + Fed Clerkship that I have going all the way back to 2008:

2012 NLJ 250 UGA 9.33% GSU 3.76% 2012 Fed Clerkship N/A yet
2011 NLJ 250 UGA <6.49 (8.8 large firm score) GSU <6.49 (8.1) 2011 Fed Clerkship UGA 7.5% GSU 2.7%
2010 NLJ 250 UGA 11.47 (10.9 large firm score) GSU 13.58 (10.0) 2010 Fed Clerkship UGA 8.68 GSU 2.02
2009 NLJ 250 UGA 15.8 (N/A) GSU <13.2 (N/A) 2009 Fed Clerkship UGA 9.7 GSU 0.0
2008 NLJ 250 UGA 18.5 (N/A) GSU 7.7 (N/A) 2008 Fed Clerkship (approx) UGA 9.0 GSU 1.0

Of course 2008 and 2009 were pre crash data so they are of questionable use but the reputation of law schools in a Geographic region takes a long time to change so i really don't think the difference in how much deeper firms go for interviews will change over the years.

All of this said and in response to OP's situation I think it really depends on what OP finds to be more important. Is the extra 35k-40k worth the extra 10-15% that UGA students that are able to get screening interviews (thus any possibility in biglaw) and the mystical "reputation" of the state flagship school? If one wants to maximize their chances at biglaw / fed clerkships that lead to biglaw, then is the extra 35-40k in cost of attendance worth it? If one wants to simply find any long-term bar required job (ie being a lawyer) then minimizing your debt and going to GSU may not be a bad choice at all.

What I will say is that OP's decision should not be based on specialty rankings (healthlaw) because it really makes no difference at all. There's literally no such thing as healthcare law. Maybe some big firms like Alston or King& Spalding will hand out healthcare work to associates but they don't recruit based on some master's of health degree. Gov jobs like Health and Human Services or CDC are few to non existent because they are broke so its extremely hard to get a post grad employment with them. Hospitals hire in house counsel from junior associates at big firms not some freshly minted JD. OP if you want to do healthcare law then try to get as much experience as you can with entities like HHS or hospitals or firms that have healthcare practice areas, but that really is not going to depend on which law school you attend, it depends on your own efforts and then luck.

[gatorlaw55]

Not OP but in a similar situation, so I'm trying to revive this topic. (and I have read tons of threads on the topic, including this one but i just need some extra advice based on my particular circumstances). Also, don't know if i should've made a new thread. if so, please let me know and I'll move it.

Just found out I received the dean's scholar scholarship which is a $3,00 scholarship the first year and the research assistant position the second and third year (which would include a full tuition waiver for these last two years as well as a $2,000 stipend per year). I was almost fully committed to UGA - ironically, I went to Athens this past weekend to sign a lease and the leasing office randomly closed that day, posting signing the lease.

COA for each would be :

UGA = $66,000 (tuition, fees, and interest... no cost of living, my husband has a steady job that will cover this)
GSU= $17,00 (" ")

$49 k difference. we could potentially pay down $5-10k while in school, but this would be for either school so it is not accounted for.

Ideally looking for biglaw/midlaw but I know it's a long shot from either school. UGA gives me a better shot at this but it seems it's only about 9% more. I do like UGA more - I felt more comfortable there and got a better vibe. But the price difference is a lot bigger now and this (which school I like more) seems more and more irrelevant.

curve balls: my husband's company will most likely have a project in Athens this coming year, almost timed perfectly with the school year. he might have a long commute before this projects starts (150 mile commute a day) but almost no commute at all once the project starts (4 miles a day). The project will be done in a year so after this we could either either stay in athens and he could continue to commute to Atlanta or move to Atlanta and I will commute to athens. (or some half way point for both.. either way some commuting would be involved)

and i know tls wisdom is to retake. however, my husband loves his job and that job requires that he stay in georgia. Not an entry level position, and he has a lot of opportunities to learn from this company/get raises/ etc. going to a school out of state is not really an option at this point.

Anyways, I'd appreciate some advice on the situation. Is UGA's network and better employment opportunities worth the extra 49k?????
Again, if this is not the right spot to post this on, please let me know!Thanks!

[BlueJeanBaby]

That is a tough choice. You are pretty much conflicted in the two things I think are most important when choosing between two schools in the same region: fit (comfort) and price.

I would be more worried about the commute. If your husband is going to for sure be in Athens for the first year, I would pick UGA hands down or wait until I knew for sure where he would be. If you needed to, I have a feeling you could transfer to GA State/ Emory if you really wanted to live in Atlanta after the first year (although I'm sure you wouldn't ever plan on this).

Good luck in your decision!!

[gatorlaw55]

Come to UGA so there's another married girl in our class But seriously that is a tough choice. You are pretty much conflicted in the two things I think are most important when choosing between two schools in the same region: fit (comfort) and price.

I am in a similar financial situation (my husband paying for everything except tuition and fees), and the way I looked at it was 66k is NOT a lot for a law degree (also, where did you get that number? I haven't figured out how to calculate interest). For me, so I'm hoping/assuming some of this applies to you as well, that figure doesn't include the possibility of a paying 2L summer or any raises on my husband's behalf, because then he would be able to contribute more towards my tuition. Essentially, 66k is the max you will spend, right?

I would be more worried about the commute. If your husband is going to for sure be in Athens for the first year, I would pick UGA hands down or wait until I knew for sure where he would be. If you needed to, I have a feeling you could transfer to GA State/ Emory if you really wanted to live in Atlanta after the first year (although I'm sure you wouldn't ever plan on this).

Good luck in your decision!!

I used the Georgetown law financial calculator..I believe it also accounts for tuition increase as well as loan interest rate. I included tuition and fees for both schools.

Essentially I would be looking at $66k for UGA but I'm not sure if that's a maximum figure. We could potentially start making some payments while in law school but we also have to account for someone commuting (to some extent) all three years - so more miles on our cars, more gas $$, maintenance, etc. Also, we currently live in ATL so add moving costs (hoever these costs wouldn't accrue interest.. they would just be potential payments on loans lost) :/

As for my husband's project, his boss told him he could put him in athens but also in other areas around atlanta. So he does have some say in where he goes. Having him work in Athens would be perfect but it would only be for one year. He's great and is completely fine with commuting afterwards, though most likely we would move to atlanta and I would commute to school. Commute would be a bear and essentially wash out the price difference between living in atlanta versus athens. Living in Atlanta this long, Im okay with commuting, though.

I know UGA gives me more opportunities than GSU... I'm just not sure it's worth that much more.... lots of thinking to do..

[BlueJeanBaby]

Realistically I think you should actually choose GSU. It sounds to me like you are leaning that way anyways, and living in Atlanta for three years and making connections in the place you want to work will help make up for any opportunities UGA would afford you over GSU.

[DaRascal]

Georgia because it'll be more fun. Do you like the Georgia Bulldogs football team?

[cm2015]

The scholarship at GSU makes this a tougher choice than it would otherwise be, just to double check are there stips other than maybe just a good standing requirement or something similar? Also, have you negotiated for scholarships w/ UGA after getting the GSU offer?

I think you'll be making a good choice with either school, as the debt you'd take on at UGA is not back breaking nor is the $17k at GSU. However, the stats that many earlier in this thread discussed seem to show that you will have a few more options at UGA. Where you feel most comfortable vs. the amt you'll be paying should be your formula. As far as the commuting possibility, if your husband can be in Athens for your first year that sounds like you have an ideal set-up, after that commuting would be manageable (many others do it and even did so 1L yr, also many 2L's and 3L's complete externships in Atlanta during the yr for a few days/wk and classes on the others).

Best of Luck.

[gatorlaw55]

The scholarship at GSU makes this a tougher choice than it would otherwise be, just to double check are there stips other than maybe just a good standing requirement or something similar? Also, have you negotiated for scholarships w/ UGA after getting the GSU offer?

I think you'll be making a good choice with either school, as the debt you'd take on at UGA is not back breaking nor is the $17k at GSU. However, the stats that many earlier in this thread discussed seem to show that you will have a few more options at UGA. Where you feel most comfortable vs. the amt you'll be paying should be your formula. As far as the commuting possibility, if your husband can be in Athens for your first year that sounds like you have an ideal set-up, after that commuting would be manageable (many others do it and even did so 1L yr, also many 2L's and 3L's complete externships in Atlanta during the yr for a few days/wk and classes on the others).

Best of Luck.

stips are good academic standing, keeping gpa above 2.2. I was going to negotiate with UGA but I've already asked their office about a week ago, before this scholarship came forth, and they said they couldn't offer me anything at the moment. Would it be too pushy/bad if I contact them again?

we're still on the fence but only have until Friday to make a decision. are summer SA's for ATL biglaw from GSU almost impossible?

[cm2015]

The scholarship at GSU makes this a tougher choice than it would otherwise be, just to double check are there stips other than maybe just a good standing requirement or something similar? Also, have you negotiated for scholarships w/ UGA after getting the GSU offer?

I think you'll be making a good choice with either school, as the debt you'd take on at UGA is not back breaking nor is the $17k at GSU. However, the stats that many earlier in this thread discussed seem to show that you will have a few more options at UGA. Where you feel most comfortable vs. the amt you'll be paying should be your formula. As far as the commuting possibility, if your husband can be in Athens for your first year that sounds like you have an ideal set-up, after that commuting would be manageable (many others do it and even did so 1L yr, also many 2L's and 3L's complete externships in Atlanta during the yr for a few days/wk and classes on the others).

Best of Luck.

stips are good academic standing, keeping gpa above 2.2. I was going to negotiate with UGA but I've already asked their office about a week ago, before this scholarship came forth, and they said they couldn't offer me anything at the moment. Would it be too pushy/bad if I contact them again?

we're still on the fence but only have until Friday to make a decision. are summer SA's for ATL biglaw from GSU almost impossible?

I don't think it'd be too pushy to ask again after you have received a new offer, they understand that you're trying to make the best decision for you. I was worried about that when I negotiated too, worst they can say is no. I'd just tell them about the offer that you received since you last talked, and they'll likely be more receptive than they were last time. I'd call/email them today though if you have to make a decision by Friday.

As far as getting a biglaw SA from GSU, I can't really speak to that. My understanding is that if you're top 10% and hustle networking and so forth you've got a decent shot. As a 1L though, probably need a lot of luck too.

[BlueJeanBaby]

The scholarship at GSU makes this a tougher choice than it would otherwise be, just to double check are there stips other than maybe just a good standing requirement or something similar? Also, have you negotiated for scholarships w/ UGA after getting the GSU offer?

I think you'll be making a good choice with either school, as the debt you'd take on at UGA is not back breaking nor is the $17k at GSU. However, the stats that many earlier in this thread discussed seem to show that you will have a few more options at UGA. Where you feel most comfortable vs. the amt you'll be paying should be your formula. As far as the commuting possibility, if your husband can be in Athens for your first year that sounds like you have an ideal set-up, after that commuting would be manageable (many others do it and even did so 1L yr, also many 2L's and 3L's complete externships in Atlanta during the yr for a few days/wk and classes on the others).

Best of Luck.

stips are good academic standing, keeping gpa above 2.2. I was going to negotiate with UGA but I've already asked their office about a week ago, before this scholarship came forth, and they said they couldn't offer me anything at the moment. Would it be too pushy/bad if I contact them again?

we're still on the fence but only have until Friday to make a decision. are summer SA's for ATL biglaw from GSU almost impossible?

A few of my family members and friends have done REALLY well out of GSU, and that may be in part due to deep-rooted connections to the legal field and grades combined, but it is definitely doable.

As for UGA giving you more, everyone I know that has asked them for more $$ in the past few weeks has been rejected. Maybe they are simply out of money, who knows. Always worth a shot, in my opinions.