Cornell worth it at sticker? (After seeing that NYU Thread) Forum

[rad lulz]

Best case scenario, enjoy paying back $270k and accruing interest with your $96k after-tax NYC income brah.

According to the last year of ABA data we have, it's about a 50/50 shot at firms of 100+ and federal clerkships, which will enable you to have that outcome.

I'm assuming you don't want to do 10 years of PI. Even if you do get a PI job, on your like $55k PI salary (optimistic), you will hit almost none of the principle when you IBR/LRAP, so you're essentially relying on the gummint to bail you out in 10 years.

No, this is not a good idea.

[NYstate]

Eh, I don't care what anyone decides. I just want them to have a clear understanding of what they are signing up for, I think most people have no idea. I think at least a third of the people from T14 schools will regret paying sticker, and probably more. I have never seen any numbers of how many people are using LRAP successfully. Some schools in the T14 have strict requirements to get in and stay in their LRAP programs. And LRAP jobs aren't exactly plentiful. I also am not a fan of going to law school and counting on IBR, but people do it I guess.

People need to understand:
what their monthly loan payment will be,
what budget they will be living on and for how long to just repay that debt,
what biglaw is like, chances of getting biglaw, chances of remaining in biglaw,
lack of government/PI jobs, need to work for free to get many government/PI jobs, gov't/PI jobs are not just automatic backup for failing biglaw,
risk of no offers from 2L, complete lack of 3L hiring (82 nationwide last year?), insane levels of competition for all jobs,
need to get grades, bid well, interview well, yet grades and school and LR don't guarantee a job,
need for ties in many markets, extremely localized nature of hiring, inaccurate and misleading job reports from schools,
and, anything else that matters like needing to pass the bar exam and get a license.

oh yes, a biggie, the fucking mandatory curve which few seem to grasp until they get their grades back.

There may be no other option for most (all?) 0Ls that has a chance of making $160,000 in three years. I think that most 0Ls see that salary and become transfixed. I think that every single 0L believes they are the ones who will get biglaw. People deny thinking they are special snowflakes,and claim to understand the percentages may at best be a 50% shot (or whatever it is), but I don't think that any single person goes into law school mentally or emotionally prepared to be on the down side of that coin flip.

Just my opinion.

You realize that the people you're trying to inform are generally not a part of the TLS community, right? And you realize that within the TLS community you said essentially nothing novel, right?

Lol.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

Best case scenario, enjoy paying back $270k and accruing interest with your $96k after-tax NYC income brah.

According to the last year of ABA data we have, it's about a 50/50 shot at firms of 100+ and federal clerkships, which will enable you to have that outcome.

I'm assuming you don't want to do 10 years of PI. Even if you do get a PI job, on your like $55k PI salary (optimistic), you will hit almost none of the principle when you IBR/LRAP, so you're essentially relying on the gummint to bail you out in 10 years.

No, this is not a good idea.

50% NYU grads landing biglaw/clerkships /=/ 50% of people who try to get that outcome get that outcome.

PLEASE STOP USING THE COINFLIP ANALOGY. At best, it works when 40% of the class lands clerkships/biglaw. You really must factor into the equation those who don't want either. It's a non-trivial amount. At NYU especially there are a lot of people opting for PI solely by choice.

[Rahviveh]

Best case scenario, enjoy paying back $270k and accruing interest with your $96k after-tax NYC income brah.

According to the last year of ABA data we have, it's about a 50/50 shot at firms of 100+ and federal clerkships, which will enable you to have that outcome.

I'm assuming you don't want to do 10 years of PI. Even if you do get a PI job, on your like $55k PI salary (optimistic), you will hit almost none of the principle when you IBR/LRAP, so you're essentially relying on the gummint to bail you out in 10 years.

No, this is not a good idea.

50% NYU grads landing biglaw/clerkships /=/ 50% of people who try to get that outcome get that outcome.

PLEASE STOP USING THE COINFLIP ANALOGY. At best, it works when 40% of the class lands clerkships/biglaw. You really must factor into the equation those who don't want either. It's a non-trivial amount. At NYU especially there are a lot of people opting for PI solely by choice.

Yeah the coin-flip metaphor I see around here doesn't seem to apply anymore except for maybe Georgetown. I don't think we'll hear it once the new ABA stats come out.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

....I don't think we'll hear it once the new ABA stats come out.

Yeah? Is it expected to be that much better?

[Rahviveh]

....I don't think we'll hear it once the new ABA stats come out.

Yeah? Is it expected to be that much better?

I am guessing - based on NJL250 stats and leaked OCI results it's going to be more like 60-70% (including clerkships and 100+ firms) depending on the schools. That's also before accounting for self-selection into PI.

I'm a 0L though, so I'm only going off the stats

*kanye shrug*

[rad lulz]

Best case scenario, enjoy paying back $270k and accruing interest with your $96k after-tax NYC income brah.

According to the last year of ABA data we have, it's about a 50/50 shot at firms of 100+ and federal clerkships, which will enable you to have that outcome.

I'm assuming you don't want to do 10 years of PI. Even if you do get a PI job, on your like $55k PI salary (optimistic), you will hit almost none of the principle when you IBR/LRAP, so you're essentially relying on the gummint to bail you out in 10 years.

No, this is not a good idea.

50% NYU grads landing biglaw/clerkships /=/ 50% of people who try to get that outcome get that outcome.

PLEASE STOP USING THE COINFLIP ANALOGY. At best, it works when 40% of the class lands clerkships/biglaw. You really must factor into the equation those who don't want either. It's a non-trivial amount. At NYU especially there are a lot of people opting for PI solely by choice.

You're an 0L

You can tell me I'm wrong when you see probably 90% of the class lining up at the OCI breadline every fall when they realize that a stint in a firm can be a credential to help you get a cool PI or govt. And they realize they don't have to be an unemployed 3L.

And like I said, I'm not convinced $270k debt on a PI salary is that great an idea either

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

You can tell me I'm wrong when you see probably 90% of the class lining up at the OCI breadline every fall when they realize that a stint in a firm can be a credential to help you get a cool PI or govt. And they realize they don't have to be an unemployed 3L.

Uh, touché?

And like I said, I'm not convinced $270k debt on a PI salary is that great an idea either

Uh, good point?


I don't know if you're butthurt or what but you are not presenting your case with all the facts. Plus, you attend Vandy, right? Vandy =/= Cornell (much less NYU/lower T10).

[rad lulz]

You can tell me I'm wrong when you see probably 90% of the class lining up at the OCI breadline every fall when they realize that a stint in a firm can be a credential to help you get a cool PI or govt. And they realize they don't have to be an unemployed 3L.

Uh, touché?

And like I said, I'm not convinced $270k debt on a PI salary is that great an idea either

Uh, good point?


I don't know if you're butthurt or what but you are not presenting your case with all the facts. Plus, you attend Vandy, right? Vandy =/= Cornell (much less NYU/lower T10).

Dude you didn't respond to any of my points

I have a cool job dood; not butthurt

Enjoy rationalizing your $250k+ of loans, 0L

[Aberzombie1892]

It's amazing how many 0L's and 1L's think they know more about employment than 3L's and graduates.

[drive4showLSAT4dough]

[megagnarley]

If you're implying a referral to prestige

If you are non-facetiously stating your rationale stems from prestige, that is foolish.

Not sure what minor-league that argument wins in....

What? You sound like a cunt. Let's speak in English bruh

I'm here to say that, from a business standpoint, taking out 250k for a 40% chance of favorable ROI is less than wise. Period. Fin.

Seriously? Not everyone who goes to law school wants biglaw. Sure, it's probably a healthy majority (especially at non-HYS T14) but some people actually want PI or clerkships. Some people go back home to work at mid-sized firms. Don't present a school's % biglaw as if that's the only way to measure it, as if all other people tragically fail.

1) Loses cool. Attacks speaker personally rather than addressing argument.

2) Fails to realize that OP specifically stated wanting to work in biglaw, thus rendering his counterpoint, which is based on not classifying desirable ROI as biglaw related, entirely irrelevant.

I'll just bow out and watch now. I have no doubt you will effectively eliminate yourself.

Good luck, chap.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

I have no doubt you will effectively eliminate yourself.

Good luck, chap.

[sinfiery]

It's amazing how many 0L's and 1L's think they know more about employment than 3L's and graduates.

Well tbf yawl graduated in a shit economy.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

It's amazing how many 0L's and 1L's think they know more about employment than 3L's and graduates.

Solid point, but these 0Ls and 1Ls you speak of present only the facts and the 3Ls and graduates you speak of distort the facts. Presenting NYU as a coinflip thing is so inaccurate that I'm surprised even the TLS megaposters don't align against it

[FlanAl]

To the original question, maybe. I will expand later but wanted to tag.

[smaug_]

The first page or two of the NYU thread is ridiculous and full of ridiculous people who go to schools like Tulane but for some reason feel a compulsion to rip on NYU in every. single. f***ing. thread.

Keep mowing those strawmen down: you have current students from T20s, from Duke, from Chicago, from CLS, from NU and an assortment of 0Ls in that thread. I'm not sure how we became "ridiculous people" but seriously LOL just LOL @ trying to act like we're all aberzombie. (I also assumed that he attends Penn despite the avatar? I have no idea.)

OP think about how much money you can earn by retaking. Not only could you "make" 60-75k+ interest easily, you could "make" even more and improve your odds of getting biglaw by getting into a better school. Seriously consider retaking.

It's amazing how many 0L's and 1L's think they know more about employment than 3L's and graduates.

Well tbf yawl graduated in a shit economy.

Funny you say that, I've spoken to multiple 2Ls here who described last summer's hiring season as a "bloodbath." Two people independently used the word "bloodbath." (Another used "shitshow.") It'll be interesting to see the numbers. I have a feeling they might quash a lot of the optimism that some folks have on here.

Solid point, but these 0Ls and 1Ls you speak of present only the facts and the 3Ls and graduates you speak of distort the facts. Presenting NYU as a coinflip thing is so inaccurate that I'm surprised even the TLS megaposters don't align against it

When both heads and tails are losers, it doesn't matter that the comparison is inapt.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

Keep mowing those strawmen down....

It may not be the most logically cogent point or whatever but it is certainly worth noting that the TLS narrative is indeed excessively negative and that anyone who draws primarily from TLS would be wise to consider this.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

[hephaestus]

I think I would avoid any lower T14 at sticker. It just ends up being too much money. I think last year, when I was applying, I would definitely answer yes. Now, I am not nearly as sure. I am currently a 1L at Cornell with 60k (so definitely defer to the judgment of the 2Ls and 3Ls ITT), and I feel completely trapped by the debt. I guess I did not realize how much I would owe until I started getting loan statements (obviously I knew I would be borrowing 120k pre-interest, but it just did not feel as real).

That being said, Cornell is a great place. We do place very well with NYC biglaw, not as much with secondary markets (though its not clear if that is self-selection or placement power). If what you want is NYC, you can likely get it. However, some people do not win the OCI lottery, even people with good grades, and there is not much you can do about it.

I guess I would say: no lower T14 is worth sticker, categorically. You end up owing 250k+ after interest, which is insane ITE. Even though I have 60k from Cornell, it still ends up being around 200k after interest. If I were to do it again, I would work another year, do a fourth retake and go to a better school. Or, alternatively, not gone to law school. The "trap" with law school is that if you do not win initially (ie, in 1L grades and at OCI) it is unlikely you will have a job that allows you to satisfy your debts, due to the regidity of firm hiring models.

I remember talking to a Cornell grad that was a senior associate at a V100. His advice was: Going to law school is a mistake. If you need to make that mistake, Cornell is a good place to do it.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

I think I would avoid any lower T14 at sticker. It just ends up being too much money. I think last year, when I was applying, I would definitely answer yes. Now, I am not nearly as sure. I am currently a 1L at Cornell with 60k (so definitely defer to the judgment of the 2Ls and 3Ls ITT), and I feel completely trapped by the debt. I guess I did not realize how much I would owe until I started getting loan statements (obviously I knew I would be borrowing 120k pre-interest, but it just did not feel as real).

That being said, Cornell is a great place. We do place very well with NYC biglaw, not as much with secondary markets (though its not clear if that is self-selection or placement power). If what you want is NYC, you can likely get it. However, some people do not win the OCI lottery, even people with good grades, and there is not much you can do about it.

I guess I would say: no lower T14 is worth sticker, categorically. You end up owing 250k+ after interest, which is insane ITE. Even though I have 60k from Cornell, it still ends up being around 200k after interest. If I were to do it again, I would work another year, do a fourth retake and go to a better school. Or, alternatively, not gone to law school. The "trap" with law school is that if you do not win initially (ie, in 1L grades and at OCI) it is unlikely you will have a job that allows you to satisfy your debts, due to the regidity of firm hiring models.

I remember talking to a Cornell grad that was a senior associate at a V100. His advice was: Going to law school is a mistake. If you need to make that mistake, Cornell is a good place to do it.

[smaug_]

Keep mowing those strawmen down....

It may not be the most logically cogent point or whatever but it is certainly worth noting that the TLS narrative is indeed excessively negative and that anyone who draws primarily from TLS would be wise to consider this.

Anyone who draws primarily from TLS is probably too optimistic, in my experience, and I'm still a naïve 1L. Those employment numbers become a lot more real when you meet the people who don't have jobs lined up. Some of them are very smart. Some of them are surprisingly charming. A bad bid list or a series of bad interviews can totally destroy someone's shot at employment. Even before you get to that stage, what you're compared on boils down to ~7 four hour exams. Those facts alone should be terrifying. I'd actually support many people when they want to take the law school gamble, but if you're willing to do so, you need to know when to walk away. More importantly, you need to know how to get every possible advantage you can. The easiest way to improve your odds of employment is to study for the goddamn LSAT. It isn't a hard test and doing well on it can save you anywhere from 20k to over 100k.

but yeah SO NEGATIVE wanting people to save money

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

Keep mowing those strawmen down....

It may not be the most logically cogent point or whatever but it is certainly worth noting that the TLS narrative is indeed excessively negative and that anyone who draws primarily from TLS would be wise to consider this.

Anyone who draws primarily from TLS is probably too optimistic, in my experience, and I'm still a naïve 1L. Those employment numbers become a lot more real when you meet the people who don't have jobs lined up. Some of them are very smart. Some of them are surprisingly charming. A bad bid list or a series of bad interviews can totally destroy someone's shot at employment. Even before you get to that stage, what you're compared on boils down to ~7 four hour exams. Those facts alone should be terrifying. I'd actually support many people when they want to take the law school gamble, but if you're willing to do so, you need to know when to walk away. More importantly, you need to know how to get every possible advantage you can. The easiest way to improve your odds of employment is to study for the goddamn LSAT. It isn't a hard test and doing well on it can save you anywhere from 20k to over 100k.

but yeah SO NEGATIVE wanting people to save money

[sublime]

..

[smaug_]

It is funny, despite how "retake" centered TLS is, Reddit's /r/lawschool on the other hand is almost completely "Run away at all costs, if you are there already, drop out." I don't have a point, just thought it was interesting.

I mean "don't go, no jobs, die alone" probably predates TLS as well.