Columbia Full Price vs Kent-IIT Free + $10k? Forum

[NYstate]

I don't think a person is automatically crazy to consider this. You really can't see why someone might want to graduate with 30k in law school debt vs. 250k+ (maybe closer to 300k)?

I don't think the idea is crazy, but the discussion of it is asinine. As you pointed out, it pretty much would boil down to "Do you want Biglaw" or probably more realistically "Which do you prefer, an 80ish% chance at biglaw with massive debt or a 66% chance of getting a legal job with a free degree?"

But, between the discussion of California, the IP distraction and other random/missing details, I still say that the discussion is asinine and that OP is flame.

Where is this 80% biglaw number coming from? That can't possibly be accurate.

OP: where else have you been accepted? What aid can you get from
Columbia ?

[timbs4339]

FLAME.

I'm not going to put up with this anymore. Calling people a flame/troll in on-topic threads when there is no evidence whatsoever of flame or troll is going to stop, or timeouts will ensue.

I won't call troll/flame anymore unless there is evidence, but I can definitely see where PRgradBYU is coming from on this one... one might legitimately wonder if Columbia at sticker versus Cornell (or maybe even one of the other T15~25 schools) with $$$ is worth it. However, it is unlikely that someone who was smart enough to get into Columbia and who knows about TLS would wonder if the #62-ranked school (not like rank matters much this far away from the top) is "worth it" in this situation.

Having said that, OP, go to Columbia and never look back. There is nothing to consider here. (However, if you get big scholarships from within the T14, then you need to evaluate your options in regards to your career goals.)

Eh, it's hard to know just how rapidly job prospects decline outside the elite schools, and there might be some scholarship bias thrown in. But at Kent you're probably looking at multiple people on flagship law review with no jobs come graduation.

[20141023]

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[09042014]

From here:

Columbia
Full-time, Long-term, JD-Required: 94.1% (429/456)
Law Firm (51-100 Attorneys): 1.5% (7/456)
Law Firm (101-250 Attorneys): 2.9% (13/456)
Law Firm (251-500 Attorneys): 6.8% (31/456)
Law Firm (501+ Attorneys): 51.8% (236/456)

Chicago-Kent
Full-time, Long-term, JD-Required: 50.9% (169/332)
Law Firm (51-100 Attorneys): 4.5% (15/332)
Law Firm (101-250 Attorneys): 1.5% (4/332)
Law Firm (251-500 Attorneys): % (5/332)
Law Firm (501+ Attorneys): 2.7% (9/332)

Based on this data, we can say this: You could either pay $250,000 + 3 years of your life for a 50% chance at big law, or you could receive $30,000 and pay 3 years of your life for a 50% chance to become a lawyer.

280K for 75% chance at least 2 years of big law. If you don't last 6 years in big law (which is hard as fuck) you probably end up with less money than you started.

Until NYC to 190K I think we've hit the point where law school at sticker isn't worth the risk.

[romothesavior]

From here:

Columbia
Full-time, Long-term, JD-Required: 94.1% (429/456)
Law Firm (51-100 Attorneys): 1.5% (7/456)
Law Firm (101-250 Attorneys): 2.9% (13/456)
Law Firm (251-500 Attorneys): 6.8% (31/456)
Law Firm (501+ Attorneys): 51.8% (236/456)

Chicago-Kent
Full-time, Long-term, JD-Required: 50.9% (169/332)
Law Firm (51-100 Attorneys): 4.5% (15/332)
Law Firm (101-250 Attorneys): 1.5% (4/332)
Law Firm (251-500 Attorneys): % (5/332)
Law Firm (501+ Attorneys): 2.7% (9/332)

Based on this data, we can say this: You could either pay $250,000 + 3 years of your life for a 50% chance at big law, or you could receive $30,000 and pay 3 years of your life for a 50% chance to become a lawyer.

280K for 75% chance at least 2 years of big law. If you don't last 6 years in big law (which is hard as fuck) you probably end up with less money than you started.

Until NYC to 190K I think we've hit the point where law school at sticker isn't worth the risk.

Bingo. Would I take Columbia at sticker? I really don't know. But this notion that "Oh yeah, it's totally worth close to 300k because it places more than half in biglaw!" is so short-sighted.

Say you go for sticker and spend ~$280,000, you do well and land a $160,000 biglaw gig, and last 2-4 years in NYC biglaw (pretty typical) while making sizeable payments on your loans, and then go to a smaller firm or go in house or whatever. Well... great job, now you've got $200,000 in non-dischargeable debt and your salary just got slashed by a third or more.

And that's a good outcome. What if you only start at 80k, or 100k, or you miss the mid/biglaw boat altogether (it does happen, even at CCN). Well now you're probably never paying those loans off and will have that hanging around your neck for 25 years.

[20141023]

.

[romothesavior]

No applicant is truly between Kent and Columbia and nothing else.

[09042014]

280K for 75% chance at least 2 years of big law.

Where is this 75% coming from? The chances look lower than that, even at Columbia which is near the top of the food chain when it comes to placing into biglaw.

When you take out PI, clerks, boutiques, real business, and gov't it's probably more like 80% at Columbia.

The problem is HALF the people who start big law are gone by year three.

[20141023]

.

[timbs4339]

280K for 75% chance at least 2 years of big law.

Where is this 75% coming from? The chances look lower than that, even at Columbia which is near the top of the food chain when it comes to placing into biglaw.

When you take out PI, clerks, boutiques, real business, and gov't it's probably more like 80% at Columbia.

The problem is HALF the people who start big law are gone by year three.

Err I'm not arguing that the chances aren't bad, but I mean, based on my post above, the number of Columbia graduates who make it into firms with more than 250 attorneys is just 58.6%. (Columbia's percent in the NLJ 250 is only 53.26%.) I'm saying that I think that you are overestimating their chances of placing graduates into biglaw. Am I missing something? (Why are you saying 75~80% when it actually looks like 50~55%?)

I went to CLS. The difference is between the % of students who could get biglaw and the % of students who actually, nine months out, are working in biglaw firms. Someone who took a job at Susman Godfrey could have gotten biglaw, or an AIII clerk whose firm is holding their offer open, or someone on law review who went to work for a small civil rights firm and never did a SA position. IME that adds up to around 85% of the class which is just about the number who got 2L SA positions plus some very good students who skipped EIP entirely.

[09042014]

280K for 75% chance at least 2 years of big law.

Where is this 75% coming from? The chances look lower than that, even at Columbia which is near the top of the food chain when it comes to placing into biglaw.

When you take out PI, clerks, boutiques, real business, and gov't it's probably more like 80% at Columbia.

The problem is HALF the people who start big law are gone by year three.

Err I'm not arguing that the chances aren't bad, but I mean, based on my post above, the number of Columbia graduates who make it into firms with more than 250 attorneys is just 58.6%. (Columbia's percent in the NLJ 250 is only 53.26%.) I'm saying that I think that you are overestimating their chances of placing graduates into biglaw. Am I missing something? (Why are you saying 75~80% when it actually looks like 50~55%?)

I explained why.

Class of '11-

Gov't = 8.8%
PI = 5.5%
Clerks = 8.1%
Academic = .7%
Business ~ 2%

That's about 25% of the class who isn't really part of the data group. So it's 53.26% of 75% which is about 71%. And that's not including PI/gov people who couldn't get it and end up unemploypwnd (though some people who wanted big law, may resort to local gov or PI), people getting boutiques, or at firms who didn't report their data.