Irvine vs. Hastings vs. Hawaii Forum

[Mick Haller]

Each of the "mid" size Honolulu firms attend OCI at Hastings. There are (literally) four of them.

None of these schools is worth 100k debt. I like Dingbat but I am not sure OP should take his advice. Hawaii's legal market is extremely small. And extremely insular. I get the feeling if you didn't attend Punahou k-12 you are almost an auto-ding at the FOUR mid law firms.

Then what are you gonna do about your 100k debt? That's like 1000$ per month, plus Hawaii cost of living.

Don't do any of these. Retake and attend Hawaii for free. Or somewhere with employment figures that justify 100k debt.

[superhopefulwoo]

I would agree with you, but as a person with 'roots' in Hawaii and an above 75ths for Hawaii, I can tell you the Dean herself made it clear that they don't offer more than 4k per student. I only know of full scholarships for ethnic natives and even that is an outside one. She said they lose great students each year because they just don't have the funding. Hawaii's market is incredibly insular, and if OP wants to work in Hawaii, OP should stay unless there are established networks and OP attends T20-30 at worst. Unfortunately, at least 90k in debt should be expected and I believe median starting pay is generally very low here (45k-50k) and from word of mouth by associates in the area, the pay will barely improve unless you open your own firm or become a partner. I face similar dilemmas as OP so I've done a little research on the only option in Hawaii.

[BigZuck]

I would agree with you, but as a person with 'roots' in Hawaii and an above 75ths for Hawaii, I can tell you the Dean herself made it clear that they don't offer more than 4k per student. I only know of full scholarships for ethnic natives and even that is an outside one. She said they lose great students each year because they just don't have the funding. Hawaii's market is incredibly insular, and if OP wants to work in Hawaii, OP should stay unless there are established networks and OP attends T20-30 at worst. Unfortunately, at least 90k in debt should be expected and I believe median starting pay is generally very low here (45k-50k) and from word of mouth by associates in the area, the pay will barely improve unless you open your own firm or become a partner. I face similar dilemmas as OP so I've done a little research on the only option in Hawaii.

Ridiculous. And sad. Too bad we can't just totally boycott schools like this. They wouldn't have any funding at all if no one attended.

[superhopefulwoo]

Ridiculous. And sad. Too bad we can't just totally boycott schools like this. They wouldn't have any funding at all if no one attended.

It is sad. 20k/yr living costs and in only the best case could you have in state (18k) and a scholly (max 4k) and a grant (again max 4k from what I could tell). That leaves 10k in tuition guaranteed for the best and most needy students.

[Mick Haller]

Hawaii just isn't a good place to practice law. I mean if you are looking to work at a small firm in a tiny market, you'd almost do as well to attend something like Santa Barbara College of Law.

Small firm salaries just do not justify the cost of attending U Hawaii. Becoming a lawyer in Hawaii sounds about as exciting a prospect as becoming a crop farmer in Arizona. I don't know where the jobs are out there, but I'd be looking for another career if that's where I wanted to live.

[Itinerant]

Each of the "mid" size Honolulu firms attend OCI at Hastings. There are (literally) four of them.

None of these schools is worth 100k debt. I like Dingbat but I am not sure OP should take his advice. Hawaii's legal market is extremely small. And extremely insular. I get the feeling if you didn't attend Punahou k-12 you are almost an auto-ding at the FOUR mid law firms.

Then what are you gonna do about your 100k debt? That's like 1000$ per month, plus Hawaii cost of living.

Don't do any of these. Retake and attend Hawaii for free. Or somewhere with employment figures that justify 100k debt.

This isn't exactly true. I'm a 2L at one of the UCs who will be an SA at a firm in Honolulu. I've never lived there but I have a tie to the city.

Everyone raves about how insular the legal market is in Honolulu, but from my experience interviewing at the firms, and attendance at several firm receptions, students from the mainland seemed to have an edge. To be fair, most of these students grew up in Honolulu and probably did attend either Punahou or Iolani, but some of the mainland students were just looking for something new. The public schools in Honolulu are not the greatest. There's a culture of school elitism that somewhat carries into law schools (see Mick's reference to Punahou). The UCs also have a strange amount of pull- probably because my UC used to offer in-state tuition to Hawaii residents before they opened Richardson. Attorneys from that era are now partners. Check firm websites you'll see quite a bit of California law school representation.

The two most recent associates at my firm went to mainland schools. One grew up in Honolulu, the other didn't.

Hawaii just isn't a good place to practice law. I mean if you are looking to work at a small firm in a tiny market, you'd almost do as well to attend something like Santa Barbara College of Law.

Small firm salaries just do not justify the cost of attending U Hawaii. Becoming a lawyer in Hawaii sounds about as exciting a prospect as becoming a crop farmer in Arizona. I don't know where the jobs are out there, but I'd be looking for another career if that's where I wanted to live.

Yes, all firms have a real estate practice.

To OP:
Going to UH will not be a lock at a small firm with a 55k salary. From my understanding of Richardson's hiring cycle, 3 students got "regional big law," 2-3 got small firm SA positions, and another 2-3 got law clerk positions. These numbers are base numbers only. The current 2L class is around 80 and fit into one section.

Hope that helps.

[Mick Haller]

It's interesting to hear you say that. I interviewed at 3 of the 4 Honolulu firms and they all asked about my ties to Hawaii. I could sense their tones change when I said I had never visited or lived there, and of course all 3 rejected me. I was top 25% at Hastings, so I admit I wasn't the greatest candidate.

I guess it's somewhat encouraging for people who want to practice there. The real estate issues were genuinely interesting to me, the competition between Native Hawaiians, farmers, and developers. But there are literally a handful of jobs and a boatload of people who want them. I would not have decided to attend law school based on a desire to practice law in Hawaii.

[sonny]

I would agree with you, but as a person with 'roots' in Hawaii and an above 75ths for Hawaii, I can tell you the Dean herself made it clear that they don't offer more than 4k per student. I only know of full scholarships for ethnic natives and even that is an outside one. She said they lose great students each year because they just don't have the funding. Hawaii's market is incredibly insular, and if OP wants to work in Hawaii, OP should stay unless there are established networks and OP attends T20-30 at worst. Unfortunately, at least 90k in debt should be expected and I believe median starting pay is generally very low here (45k-50k) and from word of mouth by associates in the area, the pay will barely improve unless you open your own firm or become a partner. I face similar dilemmas as OP so I've done a little research on the only option in Hawaii.

Did you find out any specifics on when the (small amount of) scholarship/aid offers will be released? I know the website mentions the end of the month but was hoping to know sooner.

[superhopefulwoo]

They don't automatically consider you. You have to sign up for scholarships by writing essays. The deadline is Feb 28.

[Smumps]

Each of the "mid" size Honolulu firms attend OCI at Hastings. There are (literally) four of them.

None of these schools is worth 100k debt. I like Dingbat but I am not sure OP should take his advice. Hawaii's legal market is extremely small. And extremely insular. I get the feeling if you didn't attend Punahou k-12 you are almost an auto-ding at the FOUR mid law firms.

Then what are you gonna do about your 100k debt? That's like 1000$ per month, plus Hawaii cost of living.

Don't do any of these. Retake and attend Hawaii for free. Or somewhere with employment figures that justify 100k debt.

This isn't exactly true. I'm a 2L at one of the UCs who will be an SA at a firm in Honolulu. I've never lived there but I have a tie to the city.

Everyone raves about how insular the legal market is in Honolulu, but from my experience interviewing at the firms, and attendance at several firm receptions, students from the mainland seemed to have an edge. To be fair, most of these students grew up in Honolulu and probably did attend either Punahou or Iolani, but some of the mainland students were just looking for something new. The public schools in Honolulu are not the greatest. There's a culture of school elitism that somewhat carries into law schools (see Mick's reference to Punahou). The UCs also have a strange amount of pull- probably because my UC used to offer in-state tuition to Hawaii residents before they opened Richardson. Attorneys from that era are now partners. Check firm websites you'll see quite a bit of California law school representation.

The two most recent associates at my firm went to mainland schools. One grew up in Honolulu, the other didn't.

Hawaii just isn't a good place to practice law. I mean if you are looking to work at a small firm in a tiny market, you'd almost do as well to attend something like Santa Barbara College of Law.

Small firm salaries just do not justify the cost of attending U Hawaii. Becoming a lawyer in Hawaii sounds about as exciting a prospect as becoming a crop farmer in Arizona. I don't know where the jobs are out there, but I'd be looking for another career if that's where I wanted to live.

Yes, all firms have a real estate practice.

To OP:
Going to UH will not be a lock at a small firm with a 55k salary. From my understanding of Richardson's hiring cycle, 3 students got "regional big law," 2-3 got small firm SA positions, and another 2-3 got law clerk positions. These numbers are base numbers only. The current 2L class is around 80 and fit into one section.

Hope that helps.

Hey hey now, lets be careful with the Punahou/Iolani thing. Kamehameha is no slouch, although there's a bit of bias here. Otherwise, I agree that Hawaii firms like kids from mainland schools...but you're right, those are the kids with Hawaii ties. There may be the outlier of someone looking for a change with stellar grades from a good school, but that's certainly not the norm.

[sonny]

They don't automatically consider you. You have to sign up for scholarships by writing essays. The deadline is Feb 28.

Wow. Im currently working on my UH system scholarships but apart from that I thoight they still potentially offered 5k merit and 5k need.

That makes me sad.

[lrslayer]

This is what worries me. Even more, Irvine currently makes no promise of its continued availability for all students as it is dependent upon available funding. This worries me more.

personally, i go to uci law so i won't give an opinion just one fact to clear up a worry. dean chem was grilled by a fello 1L about LRAP when it was first announced; she was concerned that it would go away for some reason. he was very convincing that it will not. it is written into the schools long-term/permanent budget so its not going anywhere.

speaking of dean chem- if you want a clerkship, you will get one.

i know alot of people say that the "favor well will dry up", but the original students getting favors are doing really well and making a good reputation for the school. this has the effect of making people want to hire the next uci law student because they have come to expect a good clerk.

like i said before, i won't give an opinion because only you know what your situation it. sounds like hawaii is a good idea in your situation, uch definitely not a good idea, uci if you aren't too scared of the debt and you really want that clerkship, uci could be for you. ultimately you know best. good luck with your decision.

P.S. -- inbox me if you wanna chat more about it!

[Rahviveh]

This is what worries me. Even more, Irvine currently makes no promise of its continued availability for all students as it is dependent upon available funding. This worries me more.

personally, i go to uci law so i won't give an opinion just one fact to clear up a worry. dean chem was grilled by a fello 1L about LRAP when it was first announced; she was concerned that it would go away for some reason. he was very convincing that it will not. it is written into the schools long-term/permanent budget so its not going anywhere.

speaking of dean chem- if you want a clerkship, you will get one.

i know alot of people say that the "favor well will dry up", but the original students getting favors are doing really well and making a good reputation for the school. this has the effect of making people want to hire the next uci law student because they have come to expect a good clerk.

like i said before, i won't give an opinion because only you know what your situation it. sounds like hawaii is a good idea in your situation, uch definitely not a good idea, uci if you aren't too scared of the debt and you really want that clerkship, uci could be for you. ultimately you know best. good luck with your decision.

P.S. -- inbox me if you wanna chat more about it!

What about biglaw placement? Especially in OC area? What sort of grades do big firms look for when recruiting from UCI?

[lrslayer]

This is what worries me. Even more, Irvine currently makes no promise of its continued availability for all students as it is dependent upon available funding. This worries me more.

personally, i go to uci law so i won't give an opinion just one fact to clear up a worry. dean chem was grilled by a fello 1L about LRAP when it was first announced; she was concerned that it would go away for some reason. he was very convincing that it will not. it is written into the schools long-term/permanent budget so its not going anywhere.

speaking of dean chem- if you want a clerkship, you will get one.

i know alot of people say that the "favor well will dry up", but the original students getting favors are doing really well and making a good reputation for the school. this has the effect of making people want to hire the next uci law student because they have come to expect a good clerk.

like i said before, i won't give an opinion because only you know what your situation it. sounds like hawaii is a good idea in your situation, uch definitely not a good idea, uci if you aren't too scared of the debt and you really want that clerkship, uci could be for you. ultimately you know best. good luck with your decision.

P.S. -- inbox me if you wanna chat more about it!

What about biglaw placement? Especially in OC area? What sort of grades do big firms look for when recruiting from UCI?

From the UCI c/0 2016 thread:

Current 2L here. Law review member, moot court participant, research fellow for the writing skills program.
If anyone wants the UCI perspective from a 2L who has been through OCI and the law review write on, PM me.

Just for the record, we have about 14 2Ls with SA positions in big law in San Diego, OC, LA, Portland, and SF. Most of the 14 of us pulled two to three offers each. Our new CDO big law student advisor worked for Cravath in NYC and is starting to work her connections with the other V20 firms for OCI next fall. Only about 30-40 of the 85ish of us participated in fall OCI. We also have a few 2Ls going to top public interest law firms in Pasadena, the EPA, and other good positions. Spring OCI is only now just getting underway.

How come only 30-40 participated? I thought UCI did not rank and frowned upon sharing rankings... was it an invite only event? I guess I am not understanding why less than half saw it worth the effort, or if there were still grade cut-offs or what. Sorry if this is an obvious question

It's not that they didn't see it as not worth the effort. It's that they don't want to work for big law. A lot of my class is still on the public interest/non-profit track. Regardless of them, OCI was great. The vast, vast majority of us had callbacks (i know one person who had 11) and most of us who got offers got two to three offers. OCI interviews were based fully on lottery, although certain firms did set a certain GPA cut off (e.g. JD was 3.3, Latham and K&L were 3.5, OMM was 3.80). Other firms have "unofficial" GPA cutoffs (e.g. Rutan is 4.0) that track with UCLA's (e.g. Milbank is 3.75) There were also a handful of other firms that did resume drops.

Let me know if I can answer anything else re: OCI.

[BigZuck]

Attend UCI=automatic prestigious clerkship? Sign me up!

But seriously, don't say stuff like this. It's a lie and it's dangerous to spread misinformation like that.

[Itinerant]

Hey hey now, lets be careful with the Punahou/Iolani thing. Kamehameha is no slouch, although there's a bit of bias here. Otherwise, I agree that Hawaii firms like kids from mainland schools...but you're right, those are the kids with Hawaii ties. There may be the outlier of someone looking for a change with stellar grades from a good school, but that's certainly not the norm.

I agree on all accounts.

If you want to practice in HI, I think you're going to be a lock for screeners at all the local firms. Probably even with median grades, but I'm not sure.

[superhopefulwoo]

They don't automatically consider you. You have to sign up for scholarships by writing essays. The deadline is Feb 28.

Wow. Im currently working on my UH system scholarships but apart from that I thoight they still potentially offered 5k merit and 5k need.

That makes me sad.

I know! Me too! If you wanna chat more on negotiating and considering your options just pm me! I could probably give you more detailed insight. I have a pretty similar scenario (but I applied to quite a bit more) so I can relate. I hope we both get merit and need aid!

[Rahviveh]

This is what worries me. Even more, Irvine currently makes no promise of its continued availability for all students as it is dependent upon available funding. This worries me more.

personally, i go to uci law so i won't give an opinion just one fact to clear up a worry. dean chem was grilled by a fello 1L about LRAP when it was first announced; she was concerned that it would go away for some reason. he was very convincing that it will not. it is written into the schools long-term/permanent budget so its not going anywhere.

speaking of dean chem- if you want a clerkship, you will get one.

i know alot of people say that the "favor well will dry up", but the original students getting favors are doing really well and making a good reputation for the school. this has the effect of making people want to hire the next uci law student because they have come to expect a good clerk.

like i said before, i won't give an opinion because only you know what your situation it. sounds like hawaii is a good idea in your situation, uch definitely not a good idea, uci if you aren't too scared of the debt and you really want that clerkship, uci could be for you. ultimately you know best. good luck with your decision.

P.S. -- inbox me if you wanna chat more about it!

What about biglaw placement? Especially in OC area? What sort of grades do big firms look for when recruiting from UCI?

From the UCI c/0 2016 thread:

Current 2L here. Law review member, moot court participant, research fellow for the writing skills program.
If anyone wants the UCI perspective from a 2L who has been through OCI and the law review write on, PM me.

Just for the record, we have about 14 2Ls with SA positions in big law in San Diego, OC, LA, Portland, and SF. Most of the 14 of us pulled two to three offers each. Our new CDO big law student advisor worked for Cravath in NYC and is starting to work her connections with the other V20 firms for OCI next fall. Only about 30-40 of the 85ish of us participated in fall OCI. We also have a few 2Ls going to top public interest law firms in Pasadena, the EPA, and other good positions. Spring OCI is only now just getting underway.

How come only 30-40 participated? I thought UCI did not rank and frowned upon sharing rankings... was it an invite only event? I guess I am not understanding why less than half saw it worth the effort, or if there were still grade cut-offs or what. Sorry if this is an obvious question

It's not that they didn't see it as not worth the effort. It's that they don't want to work for big law. A lot of my class is still on the public interest/non-profit track. Regardless of them, OCI was great. The vast, vast majority of us had callbacks (i know one person who had 11) and most of us who got offers got two to three offers. OCI interviews were based fully on lottery, although certain firms did set a certain GPA cut off (e.g. JD was 3.3, Latham and K&L were 3.5, OMM was 3.80). Other firms have "unofficial" GPA cutoffs (e.g. Rutan is 4.0) that track with UCLA's (e.g. Milbank is 3.75) There were also a handful of other firms that did resume drops.

Let me know if I can answer anything else re: OCI.

Thanks. This is interesting. So 14 2L's out of about 40 participants, and 85 students total - a 20% biglaw placement rate, probably will be much lower with increased class sizes. So you are looking at a peer of the likes of Hastings/Davis/Pepperdine/LMU.

[BigZuck]

Careful what you say about UCI ChampagnePapi. This is how butts get hurt.

Once again I would never go to a school for clerkship potential unless it was YS, maybe H.

[Rahviveh]

Careful what you say about UCI ChampagnePapi. This is how butts get hurt.

Once again I would never go to a school for clerkship potential unless it was YS, maybe H.

That post made by Chaseink was incredibly rosy considering he started it by saying only 14 people had secured SA positions. I know the caveat is that a bunch of people don't target biglaw at UCI, but I imagine that's just a function of the difficulty of getting biglaw out of there. I have a friend at SCU who told me the same thing - not as many people participate in OCI because 1) not many firms come to OCI and 2) the chances of getting an offer are very low without top grades. I doubt UCI students are any more likely to self-select into PI/gov than other CA schools.

[BigZuck]

I've heard the same thing from Hastings students. Don't participate unless you're top 15% because if you're not, OCI is not for you.

[mantel]

Careful what you say about UCI ChampagnePapi. This is how butts get hurt.

Once again I would never go to a school for clerkship potential unless it was YS, maybe H.

That post made by Chaseink was incredibly rosy considering he started it by saying only 14 people had secured SA positions. I know the caveat is that a bunch of people don't target biglaw at UCI, but I imagine that's just a function of the difficulty of getting biglaw out of there. I have a friend at SCU who told me the same thing - not as many people participate in OCI because 1) not many firms come to OCI and 2) the chances of getting an offer are very low without top grades. I doubt UCI students are any more likely to self-select into PI/gov than other CA schools.

This post ought to be deleted for absurdity.

The first bolded remark is impossible. We're talking about the first two UCI classes. Their data is the only data anyone has to get a sense of biglaw prospects. They can't use their own data before it exists as a reason for not trying.

The second bolded remark is not a debatable topic. Those UCI students, factually, self-select into PI/Gov. It also makes perfect sense because (a) they have a much lower debt burden as a whole, and (b) the type of person who goes to a brand new school (again, these are the first two classes) is very likely not the TLS biglaw gunner.

Everything else in this post is nothing.

Biglaw prospects out of UCI are looking good, but you're not going to be able to apply the typical TLS analysis to determine this - which is why these threads fail to have intelligent discussions on the merits/drawbacks of UCI.

To OP: it looks like UH is probably a good place for you, and I think you can take UCH off the table. There is no benefit of UCH for you over UCI, but UH has some benefits over UCI. For what it's worth, the 9th circuit judge based in HI, Clifton, is a fan of UCI. He recently came to speak here, and a 1L here will be interning with him this summer (and I think someone else did last summer).

[Rahviveh]

Careful what you say about UCI ChampagnePapi. This is how butts get hurt.

Once again I would never go to a school for clerkship potential unless it was YS, maybe H.

That post made by Chaseink was incredibly rosy considering he started it by saying only 14 people had secured SA positions. I know the caveat is that a bunch of people don't target biglaw at UCI, but I imagine that's just a function of the difficulty of getting biglaw out of there. I have a friend at SCU who told me the same thing - not as many people participate in OCI because 1) not many firms come to OCI and 2) the chances of getting an offer are very low without top grades. I doubt UCI students are any more likely to self-select into PI/gov than other CA schools.

This post ought to be deleted for absurdity.

The first bolded remark is impossible. We're talking about the first two UCI classes. Their data is the only data anyone has to get a sense of biglaw prospects. They can't use their own data before it exists as a reason for not trying.

The second bolded remark is not a debatable topic. Those UCI students, factually, self-select into PI/Gov. It also makes perfect sense because (a) they have a much lower debt burden as a whole, and (b) the type of person who goes to a brand new school (again, these are the first two classes) is very likely not the TLS biglaw gunner.

Everything else in this post is nothing.

Biglaw prospects out of UCI are looking good, but you're not going to be able to apply the typical TLS analysis to determine this - which is why these threads fail to have intelligent discussions on the merits/drawbacks of UCI.

To OP: it looks like UH is probably a good place for you, and I think you can take UCH off the table. There is no benefit of UCH for you over UCI, but UH has some benefits over UCI. For what it's worth, the 9th circuit judge based in HI, Clifton, is a fan of UCI. He recently came to speak here, and a 1L here will be interning with him this summer (and I think someone else did last summer).

So why don't you tell us what biglaw prospects out of UCI are like? Since you say the prospects are good, how good are they? Top third? Top 15%? People are going to continue to speculate until we have more extensive data available.

[uci2013]

So why don't you tell us what biglaw prospects out of UCI are like? Since you say the prospects are good, how good are they? Top third? Top 15%? People are going to continue to speculate until we have more extensive data available.

As you may know, you don't know your rank at UCI - but I would guess my 1st semester gpa was in the top 20-40% range (I really can't be more specific) and I received several callbacks and 1 biglaw offer with an OC office. I am not a URM, I did have work experience that may have helped offset my lack of top grades, but I am non-IP (IP interested folks with the right background or PhD have great placement).

I am aware of at least 10% of my class with clerkships, and it would not surprise me to know it is closer to 20%.

I also know of one classmate from HA who had a placement in HA this past summer, I think it was with a small firm, but I am not certain. I am not close to that individual. The class of 2012 also placed someone in HA if I recall.

I am admittedly biased, but I am very happy with my choice to attend UCI. I absolutely would not attend Hastings. We seem to get quite a few transfers from Hastings, and there is no doubt in my mind that Hastings would be a miserable place to be for most people. They are much more competitive and the school itself is less supportive. The only real plus to Hastings is access to externships in downtown SF.

So if I were you and chose not to go to UCI I would go to UH.

[uci2013]

Oh and to be fair, I think it is an exaggeration to say anyone who wants a clerkship at UCI will get one. I do know of a few in my class who want one and have yet to land one. But the placement rate for clerkships remain strong and early news from the class of 2014 is encouraging. But I also think for my class there was less clerkship support than for the class of 2012 or than for the class of 2014. Class of 2012 just got more individual attention in that regard. For class of 2014 I think some of the kinks got worked out and the process/dissemination of information is smoother, there is more support, etc. So I think the support and information will be better going forward.