Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)? Forum

[Nickg415]

Side note...Sounds like going to law school might be wrong for you in general. "Don't care as long as it pays the debt" is the kind of mentality that turns half of America's lawyers into 50 year old grey-haired divorcee alcoholics. Do it because you want to, not because you don't care.

Sorry I can see how this can come off wrong. What I meant to emphasize is that I don't care what market I work in. Growing up I have around a lot and have found that I am not tied to any one city to the point that it would be a deal breakers. So if the only job that will give me the money to pay off my debt is in Texas I am fine with taking that. As I said before I do want to work in Law so its not just a "Law because I'll be like harvey spektor" situation

[20130312]

Well, there goes MY justification for attending law school.

[Tiago Splitter]

With regards to contention 2, show me on LST where it says that? Either way it doesn't include state clerkships.

It also includes state clerkships. You can do this math.

274 grads.
231 in long term, JD required employment

25 Fed clerkships
15 non-Fed clerkships

19 JD preferred positions
10 unemployed
3 pursuing grad degree FT

[Dato]

Sorry I can see how this can come off wrong. What I meant to emphasize is that I don't care what market I work in. Growing up I have around a lot and have found that I am not tied to any one city to the point that it would be a deal breakers. So if the only job that will give me the money to pay off my debt is in Texas I am fine with taking that. As I said before I do want to work in Law so its not just a "Law because I'll be like harvey spektor" situation

Ah I see. Well I hope your poll -- and some of the data breakdown that I tried to do -- assuaged your fears a bit. Definitely try to negotiate with Penn if you can. ED kinda undercuts your leverage but I still think it's worth a shot. Don't worry about things too much, you'll love it here, and you'll be fine. It's a great school and career prospects are pretty fantastic.

[Dato]

With regards to contention 2, show me on LST where it says that? Either way it doesn't include state clerkships.

It also includes state clerkships. You can do this math.

274 grads.
231 in long term, JD required employment

25 Fed clerkships
15 non-Fed clerkships

19 JD preferred positions
10 unemployed
3 pursuing grad degree FT

Where do those 35 clerkships fit in? If they were in the 231 long term JD required, then that would mean 43 people remain (274-231), and yet you're only giving me 32 with your JD preferred (read: Wharton and some Fed people) + unemployed + pursuing grad degree. This clarifies nothing.

[Tiago Splitter]

With regards to contention 2, show me on LST where it says that? Either way it doesn't include state clerkships.

It also includes state clerkships. You can do this math.

274 grads.
231 in long term, JD required employment

25 Fed clerkships
15 non-Fed clerkships

19 JD preferred positions
10 unemployed
3 pursuing grad degree FT

Where do those 35 clerkships fit in? If they were in the 231 long term JD required, then that would mean 43 people remain (274-231), and yet you're only giving me 32 with your JD preferred (read: Wharton and some Fed people) + unemployed + pursuing grad degree. This clarifies nothing.

Are you kidding? We've established that 13 people were non-employed (unemployed plus pursuing grad degree.) So out of 274 grads we have 261 left. 19 more were JD preferred, so we're down to 242. 40 clerkships (25+15=40, not 35) and then we're well below the reported 231 in long term, full time JD required employment. So both the Federal and state clerkships are included.

[Dato]

With regards to contention 2, show me on LST where it says that? Either way it doesn't include state clerkships.

It also includes state clerkships. You can do this math.

274 grads.
231 in long term, JD required employment

25 Fed clerkships
15 non-Fed clerkships

19 JD preferred positions
10 unemployed
3 pursuing grad degree FT

Where do those 35 clerkships fit in? If they were in the 231 long term JD required, then that would mean 43 people remain (274-231), and yet you're only giving me 32 with your JD preferred (read: Wharton and some Fed people) + unemployed + pursuing grad degree. This clarifies nothing.

Are you kidding? We've established that 13 people were non-employed (unemployed plus pursuing grad degree.) So out of 274 grads we have 261 left. 19 more were JD preferred, so we're down to 242. 40 clerkships (25+15=40, not 35) and then we're well below the reported 231 in long term, full time JD required employment. So both the Federal and state clerkships are included.

Haaaaahaha clearly 25 + 15 = 35. Wowww it's bed time for this one. It still doesn't clear anything up. you're still at 242 when your numbers show 231... What is the meaning of the mysterious 11? I guess what I'm wanting is a link to LST's methodology, showing that state and federal clerkships are included.

Also you're missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't change the fundamental point, which was the absurdity of assuming that 58% in biglaw = one must be in the top 58% of the class to get biglaw.

Either way, thanks Tiago for holding my feet to the fire.

[Nickg415]

Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but you should include Federal Clerkships as a "good outcome" (~10% per year at UPenn). Many people that grab these sought-after positions follow up their term with biglaw alongside signing bonuses and other goodies. My buddy and college roommate clerked for the supreme court and signed on with a firm that paid all of his law school debt (he paid sticker at a UPenn peer btw). That's the dream (and not realistic), but it happens.

Wait the firm both paid for his debt and paid him what I would assume to be market salary??!!

[ercmilla]

Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but you should include Federal Clerkships as a "good outcome" (~10% per year at UPenn). Many people that grab these sought-after positions follow up their term with biglaw alongside signing bonuses and other goodies. My buddy and college roommate clerked for the supreme court and signed on with a firm that paid all of his law school debt (he paid sticker at a UPenn peer btw). That's the dream (and not realistic), but it happens.

Wait the firm both paid for his debt and paid him what I would assume to be market salary??!!

More than that, but I don't want to get into specifics.

Ultimately, his is a very rare story of someone who graduated 1st in his class, won moot court, and was an editor for the Law Review. A law student resume doesn't get better than that really. The world is yours if you can accomplish that.

[senorhosh]

Wow I was going to make this thread once I got the call from Dean Post. But I never did (held ED). Still waiting but I'm pretty sure I'm waitlisted.

Anyway.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=penn&show=ABA

Doesn't it clearly state in the breakdown that state/fed clerkship is part of long term?
It shows 249 long term, with it's breakdown in fed/state clerkship.
I could be wrong though... Just had a 14 hour workday and I'm tired.

[JCougar]

You might want to really think hard and evaluate whether you want a Biglaw job, and if you do, whether you want to stay in one for 6-7 years.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Associate turnover in Biglaw is around 75% after 5 years, which means a considerable number leave/are pushed out before that--many of whom end up getting paid a lot less. Penn at sticker will require at least 5 biglaw years to make a dent in $250K of debt, and those are long, stressful years. A lot of people end up hating it. But you might not have the option to even work those 5 years--you could get pushed out or have a nervous breakdown after 2 or 3.

And then there's the non-negligible possibility that you can strike out from Biglaw even if you go to Penn, by finishing in the bottom third. Then you're totally fucked.

By incurring sticker-level debt, you're basically consigning yourself to Biglaw before you even enter law school, before you know what the legal profession is like, etc. If I were you, I would take a heavy scholarship from one of the lower-ranked T14s. That's an incredibly good position to be in.

[CR2012]

Does anyone know the medians at Penn? All I can find is the 25%-75% range.

[NoodleyOne]

If you would attend Columbia, Harvard, or Chicago at sticker, Penn at sticker is an acceptable alternative (peer). That being said, I wouldn't recommend spending that kind of money on any kind of law degree. Cornell with a huge scholarship is certainly a preferable alternative, in my opinion.

Trolololol, you're seriously clumping Penn in as a peer with Harvard?

Both are Ivy, bro.

[cahwc12]

I don't have any contribution to the thread but just want to thank Dato for his very insightful post above.

[Audeamus]

Wow the responses (Even the poll) is a lot more positive than what I anticipated. I expected at least a handful of people to be of the mindset that anything outside of HYS is ludicrous. Either way. I appreciate the responses thus far.

I am also surprised no one has jumped in here to say 250k+ debt for a 58% chance at biglaw is ludicrous. I am not that familiar with the ED process. Are you really stuck at sticker? Do you get to apply for need? Are you considered for any merit scholarships or does being ED preclude you?

Stealing Nova's format (although tweaking it):
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=penn
•82.4% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. This figure includes no school-funded jobs.
•58% of graduates were working at firms with 101+ attorneys
•8% of graduates were underemployed.

Your chances at getting the job you need to service your absurd debt is better but not significantly better than a coin flip.

This is only true is you assume equality across students at Penn. Obviously, we don't know enough about OP to gauge one way or the other for his/her specific case, but your comment is misleading. OP should evaluate whether it's worth it at least in part based on how hard he/she is willing to work to be part of that 58%.

[rad lulz]

Side note...Sounds like going to law school might be wrong for you in general. "Don't care as long as it pays the debt" is the kind of mentality that turns half of America's lawyers into 50 year old grey-haired divorcee alcoholics. Do it because you want to, not because you don't care.

Sorry I can see how this can come off wrong. What I meant to emphasize is that I don't care what market I work in. Growing up I have around a lot and have found that I am not tied to any one city to the point that it would be a deal breakers. So if the only job that will give me the money to pay off my debt is in Texas I am fine with taking that. As I said before I do want to work in Law so its not just a "Law because I'll be like harvey spektor" situation

Without prior ties, Penn isn't that portable. No school is.

[rad lulz]

With $250k in loans, I'd drop out if you don't get a large firm summer associate position.

[cahwc12]

With $250k in loans, I'd drop out if you don't get a large firm summer associate position.

I think this is a heavily under-emphasized point for most. I think a strong argument could be forwarded that if you're at least in the top 2/3 at Penn, you've got a quality job waiting for you. If you're not at or above your school's cutoff for quality jobs, and this goes for every school, why is everyone under this assumption that people will/should stick it out for the remaining two years after a lost battle, only to triple or quadrupling outstanding debt?

A friend of mine ended up just below median at Texas a few years ago,wasn't too happy with law school anyway, and decided to cut his losses. He has roughly $40k educational debt (0 from UG), but it sure beats $150-200k debt to fight a losing battle.

JCougar's point about biglaw burnout cannot be understated either. Most people don't like to admit that most people find these jobs overwhelming and undesirable (except for the money). I myself was in that boat when I was in UG in 2006 at the tail end of the 2000s boom, and I was "gunning" for a top school so I could do corporate law and roll in the dough--I had absolutely no idea what the hell a corporate lawyer did, and just fantasized about having a big window office in manhattan and being all chummy with the neighboring socialites. I think a lot of people coming out of undergrad with no real world experience (like I was at the time) still hold this belief even in light of employment numbers because it's more comforting than the reality that the work largely sucks.

It's also quite a sobering comment to put into perspective as above that we're in here seriously debating the merits of attending one of the most prestigious law schools in the nation because the cost doesn't reflect the value of the degree. I couldn't imagine doing that for any graduate program outside of perhaps a liberal arts doctorate.

[francesfarmer]

It's also quite a sobering comment to put into perspective as above that we're in here seriously debating the merits of attending one of the most prestigious law schools in the nation because the cost doesn't reflect the value of the degree. I couldn't imagine doing that for any graduate program outside of perhaps a liberal arts doctorate.

fucking THIS

[Tiago Splitter]

If I were you, I would take a heavy scholarship from one of the lower-ranked T14s. That's an incredibly good position to be in.

This just isn't generally an option for people who apply ED to Penn. Even if he hadn't applied ED I doubt he'd have gotten enough from a lower ranked T-14 to pass up Penn. And while 75K to Georgetown sounds nice it still consigns you to BigLaw to pay off the loans while significantly reducing your chances to land BigLaw in the first place.

This is of course assuming OP has like a 3.3/170. If he has a 3.9/165 then yes he is absolutely crazy.

[drh_104]

Its absurd how shortsighted people on TLS can be. Yes, 250k is a significant investment and you shouldn't go to law school if you don't want to actually become a lawyer. But jesus, griping at 5 years of "hell" to pay off loans (I work at a big firm now, it is not always bad), for perhaps up to FORTY ADDITIONAL YEARS of your working life with high income potential, the ability to provide for your family, etc etc etc.

People here never think big picture. A JD is an investment in your LIFE, not just the first 5 years of your career.

[rad lulz]

Its absurd how shortsighted people on TLS can be. Yes, 250k is a significant investment and you shouldn't go to law school if you don't want to actually become a lawyer. But jesus, griping at 5 years of "hell" to pay off loans (I work at a big firm now, it is not always bad), for potentially FORTY ADDITIONAL YEARS of your working life with high income potential, the ability to provide for your family, etc etc etc.

People here never think big picture. A JD is an investment in your LIFE, not just the first 5 years of your career.

And if you don't get that big firm job and hit the other end of the bimodal at some small firm for $55k? If you're not in some super cheap area like WV or something, you're barely gonna cover the interest on that loan amount.

[Nickg415]

Thanks for all the responses! I feel that there is good representation from both views. A few questions on everything that has been said. A lot of people are throwing out 60% almost as a cut off that I need to make (If I end up in the bottom 1/3 i'm screwed) but is it likely that this 60% is make up of top a majority of students from the top 30-40% and and then the rest scattered throughout the class distribution with man people opting out of big law for clerkship, PI, JD/MBA work? If that is the case wouldn't bottom third only mean that I need to polish my interview and cast a larger net? Obviously we would need to know what percent of students shoot for big law to truly understand the likely hood of obtaining it but it seems unlikely that everyone is gunning for it and only 60% of those people are landing a gig (and those 60% are only the people in the top 60%).

In regards to potential scholarship money I am giving up at lower ranked schools, Tiago Splitter hit it on the mark (From the name I assume you also live the troubled life of a splitter and are not just simply a Spurs fan). I'm at a 3.19/170 and UPenn was my highest reach by far and it was the school that I wanted more than any. Again I am not in utter despair about my choice but there are moments when I am worried.

[JCougar]

In regards to potential scholarship money I am giving up at lower ranked schools, Tiago Splitter hit it on the mark (From the name I assume you also live the troubled life of a splitter and are not just simply a Spurs fan). I'm at a 3.19/170 and UPenn was my highest reach by far and it was the school that I wanted more than any. Again I am not in utter despair about my choice but there are moments when I am worried.

I have to admit that getting into UPenn with those numbers is quite a haul.

As for finishing in the bottom third...you simply won't get Biglaw if you are below the GPA cutoffs. They will throw your resume straight into the trash. Most people who attend Penn are taking out an enormous amount of debt to go there, and even if they are interested in PI, etc. will be lured into Biglaw if they can get it, and lateral into PI later. There's a few exceptions (I know someone in the top 2% here that absolutely refused to participate in OCI because she's interested in plaintiff-side work), but for the most part, people that "self-select" into public interest do so only after it's apparent that they've struck out at Biglaw.

So I doubt if there's really much of that effect that you describe, where the people at Penn that do not get Biglaw do so willfully. There will be a few people like that, but not many.

[JCougar]

Its absurd how shortsighted people on TLS can be. Yes, 250k is a significant investment and you shouldn't go to law school if you don't want to actually become a lawyer. But jesus, griping at 5 years of "hell" to pay off loans (I work at a big firm now, it is not always bad), for perhaps up to FORTY ADDITIONAL YEARS of your working life with high income potential, the ability to provide for your family, etc etc etc.

People here never think big picture. A JD is an investment in your LIFE, not just the first 5 years of your career.

But why would you subject yourself to those 5 years of hell if you didn't have to, and you had a much cheaper option at a slightly less prestigious school?

The other thing is, not everyone can even choose to work 5 years in Biglaw even if they want to. For the most part, Biglaw--especially the NYC firms that Penn places well into--is a pyramid scheme, with 10 associates to every partner. The business model thrives on churning and burning through associates to keep profit-per-partner up. So even if 5 out of 10 associates are great workers, at least 9 out of 10 will have to be pushed out eventually, unless the partner ranks are going to grow substantially.