T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt? Forum

[suralin]

LOL, good analysis! Same line of reasoning suggests that Northwestern is better than Yale.

No it doesn't. Median student at NU has a better chance at a 160K job than median student at NYU.

Evidence:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

That's all that my line of reasoning suggests. Has nothing to do with "better" (whatever you assume that term to mean), prestige, USNews ranking, size of Law library, percentage of aspie students, or anything else.

Your line of reasoning demonstrates that a median student at NU more often has a 160k job than a median student at NYU, not that a median student at NU has a better chance at getting a 160k job than a student at NYU.

Simply put, placement statistics != placement ability, or even more simply: what job a graduate has, is not the same as what job(s) a graduate has the capability of getting.

And from the bolded, as you so succinctly stated, I conclude that Northwestern is the lowest rank school I would attend with 200K-300K debt .... The End.


EDIT: I now see that OP has edited the original question from "What is the lowest T14 you would attend at sticker?" to "What are ALL of the T14s you would attend at sticker?" My entire argument addressed the first question.

Okay, I was only trying to emphasize the distinction between placement statistics and placement ability; a statistic in a vacuum is dangerous business.

[Jose Reyes]

I'd retake before I attend any school below outside HYS, NYU, Columbia, Chicago at sticker. Sticker at any school below is just not worth it in today's market.

[Myself]

.

[Crowing]

Schools don't exist in a vacuum; NU has good placement because of the kind of student body it has. If somebody like me with no meaningful background went to NU, that person wouldn't end up with better opportunities there vs. other lower T14s.

Also: ITT more people choose GULC sticker over Duke. OKAY.

[banjo]

I went with HYSCC, which is what I picked in the previous thread that asked a similar question. Penn and NYU were close calls.

[Betharl]

Schools don't exist in a vacuum; NU has good placement because of the kind of student body it has. If somebody like me with no meaningful background went to NU, that person wouldn't end up with better opportunities there vs. other lower T14s.

I'm sure the WE is a factor, but might NU also have a leg up on some of the lower t14s (Duke, Michigan, Virginia) simply because it's located and feeds into a major market? Also, doesn't NU have one of the most robust JD/MBA programs of any t14? That probably skews the numbers against them in terms of legal placement as they may place a higher percentage of grads into quality business jobs than other t14s.

[BruceWayne]

Schools don't exist in a vacuum; NU has good placement because of the kind of student body it has. If somebody like me with no meaningful background went to NU, that person wouldn't end up with better opportunities there vs. other lower T14s.

Also: ITT more people choose GULC sticker over Duke. OKAY.

This is true. But what people fail to realize overall about placement within the top 14 is what underlies the bolded. Once you're within the top 14 (excluding HYS and to a lesser extent CCN in NYC) rank is not what matters in regards to placement. Things like the market the school is located in, the market preferences of its students, the structure of the school's curve, how much w/e the students have, and class size all matter more than rank.

[NoodleyOne]

The other thing to consider is a lot of where people would pay sticker for is dependent on what their options are. If you're a splitter who's only T14 hope is NU or UVA, you're more likely to choose those as an options, meanwhile if you're sitting there with a 6 figure scholly, you're more apt to be debt averse, since you can be debt averse while still having good job prospects. Also, K-JD with liberal arts degree? Sticker may be a good investment for you in lieu of the fact that your other employment opportunities is Starbucks, while dude with 3 years IBanking experience has other options. Polls like this are skewed for that reason. I know that, while I want to go into law to be a lawyer, it's also really my only chance at dat upper middle-class lifestyle, and my expected earnings in any other field are waaaay low, which can make the value of a school at sticker more worth it for me than other applicants.

That all being said... HYS.

[20141023]

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[04102014]

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

[iShotFirst]

I don't see a "None of them" option here...

[star fox]

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

Typical East Coast snobbery. Well, maybe not.. could just be a disproportionate number of East Coasters saying they would pay full price at a school like Penn and UVA that's not terribly far from where they grew up (yay travel expenses) and has more East Coast ties than leave for the Midwest. I know as a midwesterner through and true, I'd at least give Michigan consideration but would not pack up and ship myself off to UVA or Penn at full price even if people regard those as being better schools.

[thelawyler]

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

I found this odd too

[curious66]

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

I found this odd too

Yes, I thought it was strange as well. Think it is inherent preference vs. actual merit of either schools.

[somewhatwayward]

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

I found this odd too

I think it is bc of the weird poll setup where if you want to pick Penn, you must puck UVA and Boalt, but Mich is all by itself. Personally I think Penn is defensible at sticker but not Mich or UVA or Boalt but the poll doesn't let me express that. Basically I think people are choosing PVB bc of Penn, not UVA. I agree that UVA is no better than Mich although neither are too great.

[Crowing]

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

I found this odd too

I think it is bc of the weird poll setup where if you want to pick Penn, you must puck UVA and Boalt, but Mich is all by itself. Personally I think Penn is defensible at sticker but not Mich or UVA or Boalt but the poll doesn't let me express that. Basically I think people are choosing PVB bc of Penn, not UVA. I agree that UVA is no better than Mich although neither are too great.

Or boalt for people who want CA biglaw. I agree that it's prob not UVA here.

[UnamSanctam]

ITT: People paying sticker at a T14 click the school they are attending.

I, in fact, did not. Dumpster fire, my friend.

[megagnarley]

What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?

I'd also like someone to speak to this.

From what I gather here on TLS, I'd say it's the not-negligible difference in what the monthly payment on the 10-year plan would be: $2.5K compared to $1.7K

[Renne Walker]

Scholly $ aside, you need to factor income of $30K/$60K (depending if you secured a 1L SA). Plus, 3L SA income. The COL should not be 100% attributed to LS (you have to eat and live somewhere). I will admit that a higher portion of COL should be factored in if you have to reside in NYC.

[Tiago Splitter]

What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?

I'd also like someone to speak to this.

From what I gather here on TLS, I'd say it's the not-negligible difference in what the monthly payment on the 10-year plan would be: $2.5K compared to $1.7K

In practical terms there really is no difference, at least as far the job you'll need is concerned. Once you get much over 100K in debt you need either BigLaw or PI/GOV with LRAP/PSLF.

[megagnarley]

What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?

I'd also like someone to speak to this.

From what I gather here on TLS, I'd say it's the not-negligible difference in what the monthly payment on the 10-year plan would be: $2.5K compared to $1.7K

In practical terms there really is no difference, at least as far the job you'll need is concerned. Once you get much over 100K in debt you need either BigLaw or PI/GOV with LRAP/PSLF.

That's what my numbers pointed at once I'd worked it all out. And that's why I don't understand why there is so much chatter around it being crazy to pay sticker but not so crazy to go with $$$.

If it is crazy to go to a school like Duke at sticker (not trolling, just an example), than it should be crazy to go to Duke with a 75k scholly, but for some reason consensus here on TLS doesn't seem to back that up...

[Tiago Splitter]

If it is crazy to go to a school like Duke at sticker (not trolling, just an example), than it should be crazy to go to Duke with a 75k scholly, but for some reason consensus here on TLS doesn't seem to back that up...

On the other hand, with a 75K scholly you can get out of the debt fairly quickly if you do get BigLaw. So if it's crazy to go to Duke at sticker because the BigLaw odds aren't good enough then I agree with you, but if it's crazy because even if you do land BigLaw the debt is too much then the scholarship makes a difference.

[megagnarley]

If it is crazy to go to a school like Duke at sticker (not trolling, just an example), than it should be crazy to go to Duke with a 75k scholly, but for some reason consensus here on TLS doesn't seem to back that up...

On the other hand, with a 75K scholly you can get out of the debt fairly quickly if you do get BigLaw. So if it's crazy to go to Duke at sticker because the BigLaw odds aren't good enough then I agree with you, but if it's crazy because even if you do land BigLaw the debt is too much then the scholarship makes a difference.

Valid.

I would say worst case scenario is missing Biglaw boat entirely if upwards of 150k+ in debt, and to me it seems like that is why most people question going at sticker, which is why I'm questioning why mid-schollies aren't also crazy for the same reason.

I suppose ITE 75k at Duke would not be as crazy given an easier and quicker potential exit, but the potential to have that exit slammed entirely by striking out is just as high and punishing.

Which begs the overarching question of why I feel like consensus is 75k at Duke is a lot "safer" than sticker.

Less painful if successful, yes, but almost equally as painful if unsuccessful.

Alas...

ETA: Convoluted prose. Long week. Fuck it.

ETA2: This is also why I don't get the wisdom of someone going to, for example, UCLA with 75k over Berkeley at Sticker. You are 200k+ and need biglaw regardless so why do anything to minimize that chance if the danger of suffering post-strike is only nominally diminished.

[beautyistruth]

ETA2: This is also why I don't get the wisdom of someone going to, for example, UCLA with 75k over Berkeley at Sticker. You are 200k+ and need biglaw regardless so why do anything to minimize that chance if the danger of suffering post-strike is only nominally diminished.

This, pretty much. As somebody who's been trying to decide between a T6 at (now confirmed) sticker, UCLA with 90k, and potential money from the T-14, it seems like in this economy, the mild advantage you seem to get from a better-regarded school if you end up with debt that would require biglaw to pay off either way.

It seems to me that, given the bimodal salary distribution, it only makes sense to go to a lower-ranked school if the schools are essentially peers, or you get enough of a scholarship that you could land in the $40 k ish salary range and be financially okay, even if you're disappointed.