University of Washington at sticker - Worth it? Forum

[MKC]

Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? I should probably know this.

Yes. Kansas City is in both Missouri and Kansas. State Line Road runs through the middle of the city.
Edit: scooped

Anyway yes, this application strategy makes no sense to me. It's got to be WUSTL or T14 or cheap state school I would think. Because of that a retake is in order. I'm old too and I put off for a cycle therefore I know what it is like and I know it is totally doable. May not be ideal but if you waited until you were 30 or 31 to take the LSAT and you wanted to go that cycle then that was just poor planning on your part. I don't see why you would take one poor judgement call and allow it to snowball into an even bigger one.

And what is so bad about St. Louis?

My poor planning was getting into the construction industry before it collapsed. I went back to school and took 81 credit hours to finish my degree in two years. I'm moving as fast as I can.

The reason these applicaitions look weird is because I only intended to seriously consider 4 of them:

Cornell
Notre Dame
Iowa
KU

Everywhere else was intended for scholarship leverage. I got fee waivers for 15 of the 18 schools I applied to.

St. Louis is a pain in the ass. I went to Missouri S&T in Rolla years ago, so I spent some time in St. Louis. Nothing about it appeals to me. Part of that is probably my general hatred of big cities.

[MKC]

Just finished going through the five largest Kansas City firms' associate lists. The vast majority of their associates graduated from either KU or UMKC. KU seems to have a slightly higher proportion, but it's marginal. There are a minority of associates from higher ranked schools, but there doesn't seem to be much of a pattern. Also, if there were any WUSTL grads, I didn't see them. This is likely self-selected, but interesting anyway.

[BigZuck]

Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? I should probably know this.

It straddles the state line. Our friend here is from the Kansas side, probably Johnson County.

And what is so bad about St. Louis?

When you're used to living in KC, STL is annoying. People in Saint Louis think they're basically as good as Chicago, which is absurd. They think everything west of them is the boonies, including kansas city. In reality, STL is a decaying, racially-divided and sad town with just enough culture (cardinals, forest park, etc) to put a brave face on it. Kansas City is a vibrant city that still retains the friendly atmosphere of a small town. But if you try to say any of this to someone from STL, they assume you're jealous, though they've never actually been to KC.

Also, KC has some of the best BBQ in the country. STL natives wrongly assume that their mediocre Bogarts and Pappy's are the bee's knees.

So basically #flyoverstateproblems ?

[MKC]

Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? I should probably know this.

It straddles the state line. Our friend here is from the Kansas side, probably Johnson County.

And what is so bad about St. Louis?

When you're used to living in KC, STL is annoying. People in Saint Louis think they're basically as good as Chicago, which is absurd. They think everything west of them is the boonies, including kansas city. In reality, STL is a decaying, racially-divided and sad town with just enough culture (cardinals, forest park, etc) to put a brave face on it. Kansas City is a vibrant city that still retains the friendly atmosphere of a small town. But if you try to say any of this to someone from STL, they assume you're jealous, though they've never actually been to KC.

Also, KC has some of the best BBQ in the country. STL natives wrongly assume that their mediocre Bogarts and Pappy's are the bee's knees.

So basically #flyoverstateproblems ?

Laugh at flyover states all you want, but the cost of living here is dirt cheap. You'd have to make $220K in Manhattan to equal $100K in Kansas City. I can live in a 2,500 square foot house (~$2,500/month) with a huge yard here for the cost of a studio apartment in NYC.

[BigZuck]

I live in a flyover state right now and dig the cheapness too brother. We cool.

[Dmini7]

If the information you presented is correct, push KU to get you full tuition or at least close to it.

[TatteredDignity]

Bro, the reason WUSTL grads are a minority in KC firms is because very few people from Kansas City go to WUSTL with the goal of coming back to KC. Most are using it as a springboard out of the midwest (or at least to Chicago). And KC schools don't really recruit that hard from WUSTL because the rightly assume that most people at WUSTL don't really have an interest in KC, and they don't want them skipping out to a bigger city the first chance they get.

There are 6 people in my 2L class who are from KC and who wanted to go back there. We are working this summer at: Shook, Polsinelli, Husch, Polsinelli, Bryan Cave, and Shook.

Yes, it's true that almost everyone at the KC firms went to KU/MU. But what you don't see about that is that you currently need to be in the top 10% of those schools to get a shot at the big firms. There are probably a total of 40 SA spots at the big firms... there's way too much competition for those spots from the local schools. Go to a T14 or WUSTL if you want to put yourself ahead of the pack.

Or, you know, nail top 10% from KU, which you can definitely manage just by trying hard.

[Mick Haller]

Just finished going through the five largest Kansas City firms' associate lists. The vast majority of their associates graduated from either KU or UMKC. KU seems to have a slightly higher proportion, but it's marginal. There are a minority of associates from higher ranked schools, but there doesn't seem to be much of a pattern. Also, if there were any WUSTL grads, I didn't see them. This is likely self-selected, but interesting anyway.

Who they hired in the past is less important than who they are hiring today. This job market is totally different from 5 years ago.

[MKC]

Just finished going through the five largest Kansas City firms' associate lists. The vast majority of their associates graduated from either KU or UMKC. KU seems to have a slightly higher proportion, but it's marginal. There are a minority of associates from higher ranked schools, but there doesn't seem to be much of a pattern. Also, if there were any WUSTL grads, I didn't see them. This is likely self-selected, but interesting anyway.

Who they hired in the past is less important than who they are hiring today. This job market is totally different from 5 years ago.

I'm not disputing that the market is changing, but I don't think it's unreasonable to look at who they have hired relatively recently (associates) to assess who might be hired in the future. I'm not saying that other data should be ignored, just that this information seems relevant.

I went super-obsessive and made a spreadsheet. Compiled data from 6 largest law firms in town:

Total number of associates: 246

Percentage of associates by law school:

KU: 24%
MU: 12.6%
UMKC: 23.6%
Iowa: 4.1%
WUSTL: 2.8%
Other: 32.9%

I get that the odds are better from schools like WUSTL. I'm just trying to rationally assess the available information.

ETA: My initial intention was to go to the highest ranked school I could get into. I'm reassessing due to the guaranteed debt associated with the higher-ranked schools vs. a full ride at a local school.

[rebexness]

[Nova]

ETA: My initial intention was to go to the highest ranked school I could get into. I'm reassessing due to the guaranteed debt associated with the higher-ranked schools vs. a full ride at a local school.

As someone who attends a T20, trust me, "T20" is a flame. Dont make your decision based on USNWR. UCLA-GW at sticker is generally a bad move.

[Shmoopy]

I'm a former KC resident, and I find that percentage of UMKC associates shocking. That school is TTTT as hell. I wonder what their grades were.

I can also say that KC has a certain skepticism towards out of towners in general, and UW sounds like a bad move.

[MKC]

I'm a former KC resident, and I find that percentage of UMKC associates shocking. That school is TTTT as hell. I wonder what their grades were.

I do too. All things considered, UMKC's employment stats are pretty good. Their LST rating is only a couple of points below MU, and it is actually higher than KU. My initial thoughts were to avoid it at all costs, but the whole point it to get a job. If their employment numbers are the best in the area, I am at least going to consider it. I calculated those percentages myself off of the listings available on the firm's web sites. That's not bullshit school PR.

Someone in another thread suggested looking at firms you might want to work for, and seeing where their associates came from. When I did, I was surprised at what I found.

I can also say that KC has a certain skepticism towards out of towners in general, and UW sounds like a bad move.

I think the coast might be too far to go outside of the T-14. I'm really hoping to get off of Notre Dame's waitlist though, and I'm also hoping for Iowa. I think either of those would give me better prospects in Kansas City than Washington. All that being said, even if the KU and UMKC lack prestige and have generally worse outcomes, the idea of graduating debt free is tempting as hell.

[TreeHugger20]

I just got in to UW after three years in a row of applying. I'm in-state and I intend to practice here in Seattle for at least a little while, but I still feel sick when I consider taking on that much debt. If I had to pay OOS tuition I would never be able to take the leap.

[romothesavior]

I don't share TD's hate for STL, but listen to him. Why you didn't apply to WUSTL is just beyond me. If KC is your goal, UW? No.

[romothesavior]

Just finished going through the five largest Kansas City firms' associate lists. The vast majority of their associates graduated from either KU or UMKC. KU seems to have a slightly higher proportion, but it's marginal. There are a minority of associates from higher ranked schools, but there doesn't seem to be much of a pattern. Also, if there were any WUSTL grads, I didn't see them. This is likely self-selected, but interesting anyway.

I got a job at a KC firm with strong but not top of the class grades, and I'd never even been to KC until my callback. They like our grads a lot.

[JCougar]

You should go to law school primarily for the career it offers you, not the quality of life during school. Honestly, your quality of life will suck no matter where you go because law school sucks in general, and you'll be studying most of the time. Do you really hate St. Louis that much that you're willing to hurt your job prospects to stay away from it? WUSTL has a decent number of KC firms at OCI, and if you're from KC, they will like you. Also, I am quite positive that you'll get a decent-sized scholarship with those numbers.

Retake or apply to WUSTL.

[TatteredDignity]

I don't share TD's hate for STL, but listen to him. Why you didn't apply to WUSTL is just beyond me. If KC is your goal, UW? No.

I was being a little dramatic. STL isn't awful. It's fine. I just like KC better.

[lakerinstl]

Is Kansas City in Kansas or Missouri? I should probably know this.

It straddles the state line. Our friend here is from the Kansas side, probably Johnson County.

And what is so bad about St. Louis?

When you're used to living in KC, STL is annoying. People in Saint Louis think they're basically as good as Chicago, which is absurd. They think everything west of them is the boonies, including kansas city. In reality, STL is a decaying, racially-divided and sad town with just enough culture (cardinals, forest park, etc) to put a brave face on it. Kansas City is a vibrant city that still retains the friendly atmosphere of a small town. But if you try to say any of this to someone from STL, they assume you're jealous, though they've never actually been to KC.

Also, KC has some of the best BBQ in the country. STL natives wrongly assume that their mediocre Bogarts and Pappy's are the bee's knees.

My wife is from KC. She moved and currently lives in St. Louis and has no intention of ever going back to KC. She doesn't hate KC, just knows there's no movement and opportunities for growth in that city. Her sister did the same thing. Her brother too. Almost everybody she grew up with feels the same way. You're in the minority with this KC vibrancy, but whatever. I don't even know anybody from St. Louis that thinks of themselves so highly as a city in comparison to Chicago. We just know KC is a not that good compared to St. Louis.

[TatteredDignity]

My wife is from KC. She moved and currently lives in St. Louis and has no intention of ever going back to KC. She doesn't hate KC, just knows there's no movement and opportunities for growth in that city. Her sister did the same thing. Her brother too. Almost everybody she grew up with feels the same way. You're in the minority with this KC vibrancy, but whatever. I don't even know anybody from St. Louis that thinks of themselves so highly as a city in comparison to Chicago. We just know KC is a not that good compared to St. Louis.

What kind of "movement and opportunities for growth" are you finding in STL that are lacking in KC? They are both medium-sized cities that serve largely regional clients, regardless of the industry you're in.

[somewhatwayward]

I'm a former KC resident, and I find that percentage of UMKC associates shocking. That school is TTTT as hell. I wonder what their grades were.

I do too. All things considered, UMKC's employment stats are pretty good. Their LST rating is only a couple of points below MU, and it is actually higher than KU. My initial thoughts were to avoid it at all costs, but the whole point it to get a job. If their employment numbers are the best in the area, I am at least going to consider it. I calculated those percentages myself off of the listings available on the firm's web sites. That's not bullshit school PR.

Someone in another thread suggested looking at firms you might want to work for, and seeing where their associates came from. When I did, I was surprised at what I found.

First of all you need to be looking at people who graduated in the last two or three years at most in ascertaining these figures. The fact that UMKC placed lots of people in 2005 is completely irrelevant to your decision. Basically big law firms used to hire more people from TTTs (which is why you see partners at Cravath who went to New England Law - but as I am sure you have surmised, that doesn't mean anyone should go to NE Law hoping to get a job at Cravath) but they have significantly reduced their hiring from TTTs in recent years, more so than reductions in hiring from higher-ranked schools.

Second, how big are the schools? If UMKC has twice the number if students, it wouldn't be too surprising if it had a larger portion of a smaller school....gradient even take into acct another important factor regarding the higher-ranked schools: how many people actually tried to get a job in KC. UChi might only send 2 people, or 1% of its class, to KC this year but if only three people tried, 66% ain't too bad. (Note: I am not advocating for US! That will nit help in KC although WUSTL prob would.)

Lastly, how many total spots were there for first-year in KC last year? If there were 30 spots, the fact that UMKC claimed 30% translates to a total of 9 spots....pretty terrible. Anyway you know what advice is coming: RETAKE!

[lakerinstl]

My wife is from KC. She moved and currently lives in St. Louis and has no intention of ever going back to KC. She doesn't hate KC, just knows there's no movement and opportunities for growth in that city. Her sister did the same thing. Her brother too. Almost everybody she grew up with feels the same way. You're in the minority with this KC vibrancy, but whatever. I don't even know anybody from St. Louis that thinks of themselves so highly as a city in comparison to Chicago. We just know KC is a not that good compared to St. Louis.

What kind of "movement and opportunities for growth" are you finding in STL that are lacking in KC? They are both medium-sized cities that serve largely regional clients, regardless of the industry you're in.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with KC. I have no beef with them. I just hear this "cocky St. Louis attitude" from KC people all the time. They think we put St. Louis on this high pedestal when in fact that's FAR from the truth. I have lived in St. Louis for 29 years, and everybody I have ever really come across is realistic about St. Louis being a decent middle tier big city and nothing more. Yeah people from St. Louis might talk like KC is a worse city sometimes, but KC people seem to take it to heart and get super offended. Most St. Louis people don't get offended in the same manner if somebody from Chicago talks the same way about St. Louis.

[TatteredDignity]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with KC.

she just knows there's no movement and opportunities for growth in that city.

Almost everybody she grew up with feels the same way.

You're in the minority with this KC vibrancy, but whatever.

We just know KC is a not that good compared to St. Louis.

[lakerinstl]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with KC.

she just knows there's no movement and opportunities for growth in that city.

Almost everybody she grew up with feels the same way.

You're in the minority with this KC vibrancy, but whatever.

We just know KC is a not that good compared to St. Louis.

I just stated how many people feel, not to start some pissing match. Again, these small things strike a nerve with KC people so much. Only point I was trying to make (which is obvious despite your attempt to point to one sentence that meant nothing) is that the perceived mentality of St. Louis people was totally wrong. NIce of you to address anything else I said.

[Shmoopy]

Them fancy St. Louis people