Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016 Forum

[Justin Genious]

Goals: Clerkship (not gunning for anything absolutely insane and won't cry if I don't do it), but Im really aiming for Federal Prosecutor and possibly academia later in life.

I have heard of people getting into their homestate's USAO from CCN straight out of law school, although that obviously depends on the state and I would assume near top of the class--I am sure likability and previous experience play a large factor as well. If you are interested in the civil side of the law, biglaw would provide you with the appropriate experience if you aren't one of the few lucky ones who get it straight out of school. Based on these few facts stories I've heard, I would say take Ruby/Hamilton and work biglaw for the $/experience.

My goals: federal clerkship --> biglaw (business litigation/finance/M&A) --> in-house counsel --> part-time professor (near the end of my career)

I've done 2 years of silicon-valley M&A work for F500, so I think SLS would be a cohesive fit, but I think Chicago's Law and Economics focus would also be great for a foundation in business law.

QOL is important to me as I will be taking a wife and a kid with me wherever I go, and a happy wife = happy home = happy (relatively) law student.

I'm having trouble weighing the importance of QOL vs. debt as they are inversely related to me in terms of picking a law school. SLS would definitely offer the best QOL, but Chicago would offer the most financial freedom. If I go the SLS/HLS route, I should be able to graduate with $80k-$120k worth of debt, and no more.

Thoughts?

Nearly same route that I wish to take. Unfortunately, nothing can guarantee us an in-house position. Since you want high QOL and a clerkship, Stanford is the obvious choice. Paying loans off is a bitch, but Stanford will bring a little added prestige on your resume when you wish to retire and become a professor.

My goals are:

Best case go straight into academia tenure track (anyone know what is generally required for this?)
If I don't get the grades for academia, just go work at a firm (oh the drudgery!)

Ruby/Hamilton because in 2011 the total number of students who got academia at SLS, CLS, and U of Chi were 4, 3, and 5 , respectively. Way too low of numbers to base your school decision on it. Since you want to hit up a firm after, going to school for free and having a relatively strong chance at getting biglaw seems like the right choice.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=NALP
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=NALP
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... &show=NALP

HTH

[fluffythepenguin]

Just looking at LSN and sorting by $, it seems that 80-90% of those with one of HYS and a Hamilton and/or Rubenstein ended up choosing HYS. Although many profiles never indicated where they ended up actually attending, so perhaps it's too small a sample size to draw any meaningful inferences from.

[az21833]

Just looking at LSN and sorting by $, it seems that 80-90% of those with one of HYS and a Hamilton and/or Rubenstein ended up choosing HYS. Although many profiles never indicated where they ended up actually attending, so perhaps it's too small a sample size to draw any meaningful inferences from.

80-90, seriously? wow

[UtilityMonster]

Just looking at LSN and sorting by $, it seems that 80-90% of those with one of HYS and a Hamilton and/or Rubenstein ended up choosing HYS. Although many profiles never indicated where they ended up actually attending, so perhaps it's too small a sample size to draw any meaningful inferences from.

80-90, seriously? wow

From what I understand Uchicago's facilities are not that nice or something. Maybe it is the people there. No idea. But I have talked to and read about a number of applicants who were leaning heavily toward the Rubenstein but after visiting both Chicago and Harvard picked Harvard. Probably more of a gut decision and decision based on which law school they would enjoy attending more than a "rational economic decision."

[KaNa1986]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

[NYstate]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Seriously. I am shocked that anyone would turn those scholarships down. How can that much money not matter to someone? Debt is a problem and even with the greatest LRAP program in the world, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to repay. Why would anyone not take one the best law schools in the country for free on a named scholarship?

There is really no good reason.

[spicyyoda17]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Seriously. I am shocked that anyone would turn those scholarships down. How can that much money not matter to someone? Debt is a problem and even with the greatest LRAP program in the world, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to repay. Why would anyone not take one the best law schools in the country for free on a named scholarship?

There is really no good reason.

In principle I think few would disagree with you. However, to say there is no good reason seems too absolute. I know some students whose need-based grants almost matched the named scholarship amount; others have saved enough through work prior work experience to be able to attend HYS on less than $50k of loans.

Moreover, some people have other significant factors to weigh in aside from money. Career goals, family situation, personal fit, etc. I'm not saying that the value of these intangibles are worth a certain dollar amount (be it $50k or $200k), but I do think we should be weary of blanket statements that encompass people with varying situations and goals.

[az21833]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Seriously. I am shocked that anyone would turn those scholarships down. How can that much money not matter to someone? Debt is a problem and even with the greatest LRAP program in the world, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to repay. Why would anyone not take one the best law schools in the country for free on a named scholarship?

There is really no good reason.

In principle I think few would disagree with you. However, to say there is no good reason seems too absolute. I know some students whose need-based grants almost matched the named scholarship amount; others have saved enough through work prior work experience to be able to attend HYS on less than $50k of loans.

Moreover, some people have other significant factors to weigh in aside from money. Career goals, family situation, personal fit, etc. I'm not saying that the value of these intangibles are worth a certain dollar amount (be it $50k or $200k), but I do think we should be weary of blanket statements that encompass people with varying situations and goals.

+1

[Ti Malice]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Seriously. I am shocked that anyone would turn those scholarships down. How can that much money not matter to someone? Debt is a problem and even with the greatest LRAP program in the world, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to repay. Why would anyone not take one the best law schools in the country for free on a named scholarship?

There is really no good reason.

There are plenty of good reasons for people who have strong interests apart from BigLaw. And most of us are paying quite a bit less than sticker. (If someone is paying sticker at YHS, their family is likely loaded and the money is probably not a real concern anyway.) YLS is giving me a huge amount of money, and SLS and HLS offered huge grants as well.

[bernaldiaz]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Seriously. I am shocked that anyone would turn those scholarships down. How can that much money not matter to someone? Debt is a problem and even with the greatest LRAP program in the world, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to repay. Why would anyone not take one the best law schools in the country for free on a named scholarship?

There is really no good reason.

I don't have a Hamilton or Ruby, but I've been thinking about the pros and cons of HYS v. Ruby a little bit. Something an HYS student said to me sticks out in this debate, but I really question the validity of the statement. She said that out of HYS, when you are hired by a firm you are on a different track and need to screw it up in order to not make partner. I think this is somewhere that TLS has a dearth of information, since the population hasn't reached the age of making partner yet. But if its true, then the 180k or whatever it ends up being is probably worth it if it raises the chance you make partner (aren't forced out of biglaw) materially. In that case, sure there'd be some lean leaving for 5-8 out of law school, but there would be a long term pay-off. Again, I'm skeptical of this, but it at least offers one possible reason, or at least helps to explain the decision that people have made.

[UtilityMonster]

Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Why exactly would it help for clerkships or academia to go to HYS over Hamilton /ruby? Are your chances really better? I know a higher proportion of graduates from HYS get clerkships than from CC, but I am interested in what proportion of applicants who get offered ruby/Hamilton and take it vs go to hys get clerkships. No data on this, so I think the rational thing to do would be take the money even if one is gunning for a clerkship.

The thing that is making the decision difficult for me is that I need not take on debt to go to H, I think I will enjoy my time there significantly more, I can't help but care about lay prestige (I actually want to write nonfiction books for a general audience and think a degree from H will help) and I am basing the decision in large part on where my SO winds up.

[NYstate]

No one is not getting made partner because they took a named scholarship at Columbia or Chicago. Almost no one is making partner anyway, but a very prestigious scholarship instead of Harvard will not be held against you. Once you begin work at a firm, it is the work you do that will decide your future. Similarly, if your work is subpar going to Harvard wont save you.

I don't know why anyone would believe that in the real world of biglaw it would make a difference.

[UtilityMonster]

I don't have a Hamilton or Ruby, but I've been thinking about the pros and cons of HYS v. Ruby a little bit. Something an HYS student said to me sticks out in this debate, but I really question the validity of the statement. She said that out of HYS, when you are hired by a firm you are on a different track and need to screw it up in order to not make partner. I think this is somewhere that TLS has a dearth of information, since the population hasn't reached the age of making partner yet. But if its true, then the 180k or whatever it ends up being is probably worth it if it raises the chance you make partner (aren't forced out of biglaw) materially. In that case, sure there'd be some lean leaving for 5-8 out of law school, but there would be a long term pay-off. Again, I'm skeptical of this, but it at least offers one possible reason, or at least helps to explain the decision that people have made.

I am truly saddened if what this girl says is true, because that would imply that law firms put the prestige of their attorneys' schools over their attorneys' competence. The idea that someone who finished in the middle of his class at H would be placed on a special track, while someone who got a Hamilton and was in, say, the top 25% of his class would not, is repugnant to me. This would put firms that operated this way at a disadvantage against those that had more intelligent approaches to promotions.

[Xifeng]

No one is not getting made partner because they took a named scholarship at Columbia or Chicago. Almost no one is making partner anyway, but a very prestigious scholarship instead of Harvard will not be held against you. Once you begin work at a firm, it is the work you do that will decide your future. Similarly, if your work is subpar going to Harvard wont save you.

I don't know why anyone would believe that in the real world of biglaw it would make a difference.

Yeah I've literally never heard that HYS --> partner unless you fuck it up. Maybe that was true pre-ITE somehow, but considering how few people make partner that clearly can't be true.

[Ti Malice]

I don't have a Hamilton or Ruby, but I've been thinking about the pros and cons of HYS v. Ruby a little bit. Something an HYS student said to me sticks out in this debate, but I really question the validity of the statement. She said that out of HYS, when you are hired by a firm you are on a different track and need to screw it up in order to not make partner. I think this is somewhere that TLS has a dearth of information, since the population hasn't reached the age of making partner yet. But if its true, then the 180k or whatever it ends up being is probably worth it if it raises the chance you make partner (aren't forced out of biglaw) materially. In that case, sure there'd be some lean leaving for 5-8 out of law school, but there would be a long term pay-off. Again, I'm skeptical of this, but it at least offers one possible reason, or at least helps to explain the decision that people have made.

I am truly saddened if what this girl says is true, because that would imply that law firms put the prestige of their attorneys' schools over their attorneys' competence. The idea that someone who finished in the middle of his class at H would be placed on a special track, while someone who got a Hamilton and was in, say, the top 25% of his class would not, is repugnant to me. This would put firms that operated this way at a disadvantage against those that had more intelligent approaches to promotions.

Don't worry, the girl was full of it.

[SportsFan]

I got both Hamilton & Ruby and acceptances from two of HYS last cycle. I chose to attend HYS, but looking back now, I think graduating with no debt (which is possible with 1L SA and 2L SA, especially with the Ruby) would have been the best path. Take the money and don't look back, unless you want clerkship/academia.

Seriously. I am shocked that anyone would turn those scholarships down. How can that much money not matter to someone? Debt is a problem and even with the greatest LRAP program in the world, it will take a long time and a lot of effort to repay. Why would anyone not take one the best law schools in the country for free on a named scholarship?

There is really no good reason.

Jerb prospects. Probably less of a problem at Columbia than Chicago (but still, not a huge difference), but being bottom third still isn't a good place to be. At least if you're paying sticker at HYS, you don't have as much to worry about if you finish bottom third or whatever.

[bernaldiaz]

I don't have a Hamilton or Ruby, but I've been thinking about the pros and cons of HYS v. Ruby a little bit. Something an HYS student said to me sticks out in this debate, but I really question the validity of the statement. She said that out of HYS, when you are hired by a firm you are on a different track and need to screw it up in order to not make partner. I think this is somewhere that TLS has a dearth of information, since the population hasn't reached the age of making partner yet. But if its true, then the 180k or whatever it ends up being is probably worth it if it raises the chance you make partner (aren't forced out of biglaw) materially. In that case, sure there'd be some lean leaving for 5-8 out of law school, but there would be a long term pay-off. Again, I'm skeptical of this, but it at least offers one possible reason, or at least helps to explain the decision that people have made.

I am truly saddened if what this girl says is true, because that would imply that law firms put the prestige of their attorneys' schools over their attorneys' competence. The idea that someone who finished in the middle of his class at H would be placed on a special track, while someone who got a Hamilton and was in, say, the top 25% of his class would not, is repugnant to me. This would put firms that operated this way at a disadvantage against those that had more intelligent approaches to promotions.

Don't worry, the girl was full of it.

Yeah that's what I figured.

Two more things I've been wondering about:

Does that fact that Ruby is probably done after this year weight into your decision at all? Obviously the financial award is astounding, but Do you think this mitigates the long term benefit of the award? Example: Partners at big firms still list things like the Darrow on their bio page and that connotes a certain amount of prestige above and beyond a normal UM grad. In 10-20 years, there's a chance that the Ruby is relatively unknown and obscure. Again, the whole graduating without debt thing would be amazing regardless of this fact, it's just a tangential thing to consider.

Secondly, I was wondering if you think that Rubies/ Hamiltons are differentiated from the rest of the class by employers. I think on TLS the general thought is that no, it doesn't add much of a benefit when applying to firms or whatever. Do the schools do anything to help their full-scholarship students? Faculty mentors, networking events, etc.? If so, then maybe bottom 1/3rd with a Ruby isn't any worse than being bottom third at HYS.

(Again, I don't have a Ruby just trying to flesh some thoughts out)

[2013applicant]

Adding another anecdote:

3L buddy of mine picked a full-ride at CC over HYS. He had a 1L summer gig and a 9 + 6 two-firm 2L summer. This is roughly 75k pretax income that went straight to the bank before he even graduated.

Clearly he isn't the typical experience for someone who picks full-ride CC over HYS, but it is something to think about.

[spicyyoda17]

I've talked to a few 2L Ruby recipients at UChi. Basically, I wanted to assess the value of the Ruby beyond the monetary considerations.

In regards to OCI:

-They didn't feel like they got any points for having the Ruby. Employers may have asked about it, but they just wanted to know if it was a merit scholarship earned during law school, since law school performance is what they were most concerned about. When they found out it wasn't, they didn't ask about it further.
-In sum, no significant employment edge, if any.

In terms of the other benefits, here were some takeaways:

-At UChi, the professors and deans are pretty easily accessible, but for the most part, the onus is on the student to approach them and seek them out. As a Ruby scholar, professors, and more so deans, provide more opportunities for these students to interact with professors and administrators (Ruby dinners).
-In sum, there is nothing (other than a few free dinners) that a Ruby scholar has access to that other students don't; however, those things are put in front of these students, whereas other students have to make the effort to go and get them. So if you have a driven personality and are out-going, the Ruby probably doesn't offer a lot here; but for those that are shy, it would be a nice, albeit, marginal boost.

Conclusion: the Ruby is mostly a source of monetary value to students (at least for now) as opposed to a game-changer when it comes to intangible considerations (e.g. employment boost, networking, etc.). Again, this is based on anecdotal evidence, but I thought it might still be relevant for this thread.

[az21833]

I've talked to a few 2L Ruby recipients at UChi. Basically, I wanted to assess the value of the Ruby beyond the monetary considerations.

In regards to OCI:

-They didn't feel like they got any points for having the Ruby. Employers may have asked about it, but they just wanted to know if it was a merit scholarship earned during law school, since law school performance is what they were most concerned about. When they found out it wasn't, they didn't ask about it further.
-In sum, no significant employment edge, if any.

In terms of the other benefits, here were some takeaways:

-At UChi, the professors and deans are pretty easily accessible, but for the most part, the onus is on the student to approach them and seek them out. As a Ruby scholar, professors, and more so deans, provide more opportunities for these students to interact with professors and administrators (Ruby dinners).
-In sum, there is nothing (other than a few free dinners) that a Ruby scholar has access to that other students don't; however, those things are put in front of these students, whereas other students have to make the effort to go and get them. So if you have a driven personality and are out-going, the Ruby probably doesn't offer a lot here; but for those that are shy, it would be a nice, albeit, marginal boost.

Conclusion: the Ruby is mostly a source of monetary value to students (at least for now) as opposed to a game-changer when it comes to intangible considerations (e.g. employment boost, networking, etc.). Again, this is based on anecdotal evidence, but I thought it might still be relevant for this thread.

Great insight. I would expect this would be the same for named schollys throughout the t14 unless people have heard otherwise?

[EdgarWinter]

.

[Ti Malice]

I've talked to a few 2L Ruby recipients at UChi. Basically, I wanted to assess the value of the Ruby beyond the monetary considerations.

In regards to OCI:

-They didn't feel like they got any points for having the Ruby. Employers may have asked about it, but they just wanted to know if it was a merit scholarship earned during law school, since law school performance is what they were most concerned about. When they found out it wasn't, they didn't ask about it further.
-In sum, no significant employment edge, if any.

In terms of the other benefits, here were some takeaways:

-At UChi, the professors and deans are pretty easily accessible, but for the most part, the onus is on the student to approach them and seek them out. As a Ruby scholar, professors, and more so deans, provide more opportunities for these students to interact with professors and administrators (Ruby dinners).
-In sum, there is nothing (other than a few free dinners) that a Ruby scholar has access to that other students don't; however, those things are put in front of these students, whereas other students have to make the effort to go and get them. So if you have a driven personality and are out-going, the Ruby probably doesn't offer a lot here; but for those that are shy, it would be a nice, albeit, marginal boost.

Conclusion: the Ruby is mostly a source of monetary value to students (at least for now) as opposed to a game-changer when it comes to intangible considerations (e.g. employment boost, networking, etc.). Again, this is based on anecdotal evidence, but I thought it might still be relevant for this thread.

Great insight. I would expect this would be the same for named schollys throughout the t14 unless people have heard otherwise?

This is pretty much in line with what I've heard from people with named full-ride scholarships at other T14s.

[bernaldiaz]

Does anyone know how often the waves of Rubies go out? Does anyone know if there is precedent to actively negotiate into a Ruby (as opposed to just waiting for the next rounds to go out and hope you're included in it)? I really really want the option.

[Yukos]

Does anyone know how often the waves of Rubies go out? Does anyone know if there is precedent to actively negotiate into a Ruby (as opposed to just waiting for the next rounds to go out and hope you're included in it)? I really really want the option.

+1

[fluffythepenguin]

Hi everyone,

I posted the below in the "In at Harvard" thread, but I thought it might also be useful for people comparing taking the money at CCN vs attending HYS.

Essentially, forgoing the money at CCN, and then taking a market paying job upon graduation means your take home pay is about 20k less for 10 years due to the loans (varying upon how much debt you ended up taking out).

However, if you wind up utilizing LIPP for a significant amount of time, you will receive basically no monetary benefit from taking the money at CCN. I hope this helps as you go about making your decision!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I created a spreadsheet that attempts to measure how loans, interest rates, LIPP, and income affect take home pay for HLS students. The link to the spreadsheet is below.

Feel free to vary the inputs as you wish (make sure you enter loan amount as a negative number), however, please only change the cells in RED. The rest of the spreadsheet will update accordingly.

I've got a few questions in some of the comments; shockingly, our tax code is quite complicated, so I'm not positive if my calculations are completely accurate. If you know the answers to anything, please post it somewhere in the spreadsheet so I can make the appropriate changes. Additionally, if you think you found any other errors, please let me know.

Please note that this spreadsheet only calculates income for monies earned in NY state (so, it doesn't include the NYC income tax). Also, I conservatively assumed 3% annual raises.

A couple things that I found interesting and wanted to point out: If you plan on utilizing LIPP, the marginal tax rate on income once you hit 46k and 52k in LIPP-eligible income is 59% and 79%, respectively. The rate remains this high until your income is high enough that you will no longer receive LIPP assistance, at which point it drops to about 40%. So you'll want to ask for non-monetary compensation once you earn 46K annually...

Additionally, if you are dead set on utilizing LIPP once you graduate, it basically does not matter how much debt you take out. Unless your salary is above around 80k, you should be completely indifferent to 100k of debt versus 250k. So take out as many loans as you can.

Hope this helps!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... vRHc#gid=0