If your scores are less than 3.0 and 160 you have no chance Forum

[Burne182]

3 years active duty does not necessarily correlate to that. If you did ROTC for undergrad you owe 4 years, if you went to a service academy 5. So the first 4 or 5 years of that service absolutely do not count towards the GI bill. I will have done 6 years active, only 1 of which counts, so I am eligible for 60% in-state benefits. (Note-- I'm not saying I deserve more, just stating that 60% of in-state tuition and 60% of housing allowance roughly correlates to 60k not 200k.)

[dingbat]

While I don't agree with the statement as a whole, I think you have the right idea. If I had a 2.9/159, refused to retake, refused to work for WE and to save $, and wanted law school and nothing else I would go to a TTTT in a region where I was 100% sure I wanted to live for at least 10 years, the competition isn't horrendous and I get some sort of scholly with no stips. Duquesne is a prime example, they are as widely represented in Pittsburgh as Pitt in terms of alums, and the attorneys in Pittsburgh absolutely do not care about the ranking at all. Outside of Pitt there is little competition. Many schools in the south have the same type of reputation. But, with all that said, the smart play is to retake and work.

Are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh?
I live in Jersey and while Rutgers is very well respected here, there simply aren't any jobs. Jersey firms generally hire clerkship only and there aren't enough to service the 3 law schools here.

[BarbellDreams]

While I don't agree with the statement as a whole, I think you have the right idea. If I had a 2.9/159, refused to retake, refused to work for WE and to save $, and wanted law school and nothing else I would go to a TTTT in a region where I was 100% sure I wanted to live for at least 10 years, the competition isn't horrendous and I get some sort of scholly with no stips. Duquesne is a prime example, they are as widely represented in Pittsburgh as Pitt in terms of alums, and the attorneys in Pittsburgh absolutely do not care about the ranking at all. Outside of Pitt there is little competition. Many schools in the south have the same type of reputation. But, with all that said, the smart play is to retake and work.

Are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh?
I live in Jersey and while Rutgers is very well respected here, there simply aren't any jobs. Jersey firms generally hire clerkship only and there aren't enough to service the 3 law schools here.

The problem with the "are there enough jobs?" argument is that by that theory no one should attend any school outside the t14 ever cause there aren't enough jobs, no matter the scholarship (remember that the point of the TTTT attendance is for the scholly, and Duquesne as an example will give you money even with 2.9/159). Pittsburgh's market is split literally 50/50 when it comes to alums from Pitt and Duquesne. I have spoken to at least 20 attorneys at firms in the area and they have absolutely no preference between the schools. Given that the market is very insular most other schools outside of the occasional T14 aren't really a threat. Now will all get a job? No. But Fordham on a half-ride is also a solid deal where not everyone will get a job. This applies to many other TTT/TTTT schools in states like Montana, Idaho, a bunch of Southern states, etc. This isn't the best option, but as long as one picks a school in a market where they dont mind living for a long time, they have at least a half ride, the market has little competition from other school (No, don't go to NYLS with a half ride thinking you'll make it), and you have decent personal skills to network it can be done.

To be clear, not advocating this by ANY means as this isn't the best option, just saying that there is still a shot you get some sort of job with this route without crippling yourself with debt.

[TatteredDignity]

While I don't agree with the statement as a whole, I think you have the right idea. If I had a 2.9/159, refused to retake, refused to work for WE and to save $, and wanted law school and nothing else I would go to a TTTT in a region where I was 100% sure I wanted to live for at least 10 years, the competition isn't horrendous and I get some sort of scholly with no stips. Duquesne is a prime example, they are as widely represented in Pittsburgh as Pitt in terms of alums, and the attorneys in Pittsburgh absolutely do not care about the ranking at all. Outside of Pitt there is little competition. Many schools in the south have the same type of reputation. But, with all that said, the smart play is to retake and work.

Are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh?
I live in Jersey and while Rutgers is very well respected here, there simply aren't any jobs. Jersey firms generally hire clerkship only and there aren't enough to service the 3 law schools here.

The problem with the "are there enough jobs?" argument is that by that theory no one should attend any school outside the t14 ever cause there aren't enough jobs, no matter the scholarship

yes. exactly. there aren't enough jobs, and the opportunity cost is still there. not sure how this is a problem with the argument.

[BarbellDreams]

While I don't agree with the statement as a whole, I think you have the right idea. If I had a 2.9/159, refused to retake, refused to work for WE and to save $, and wanted law school and nothing else I would go to a TTTT in a region where I was 100% sure I wanted to live for at least 10 years, the competition isn't horrendous and I get some sort of scholly with no stips. Duquesne is a prime example, they are as widely represented in Pittsburgh as Pitt in terms of alums, and the attorneys in Pittsburgh absolutely do not care about the ranking at all. Outside of Pitt there is little competition. Many schools in the south have the same type of reputation. But, with all that said, the smart play is to retake and work.

Are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh?
I live in Jersey and while Rutgers is very well respected here, there simply aren't any jobs. Jersey firms generally hire clerkship only and there aren't enough to service the 3 law schools here.

The problem with the "are there enough jobs?" argument is that by that theory no one should attend any school outside the t14 ever cause there aren't enough jobs, no matter the scholarship

yes. exactly. there aren't enough jobs, and the opportunity cost is still there. not sure how this is a problem with the argument.

Its a problem for people who jump at a halfride at Fordham but laugh at a halfride at UoMontana assuming the applicant wants to practice in Montana. If there is nothing else I've learned in law school its ALL non t14's are regional. VERY regional. No one gives a shit about your Fordham degree in Montana.

[TatteredDignity]

Also almost all of the T14s are regional, so there's that.

[Birdnals]

Its a problem for people who jump at a halfride at Fordham but laugh at a halfride at UoMontana assuming the applicant wants to practice in Montana. If there is nothing else I've learned in law school its ALL non t14's are regional. VERY regional. No one gives a shit about your Fordham degree in Montana.

Well for the 3.2 jobs opening up in Montana this year I am sure this works, but unfortunately there will be more than 3.2 UoMontana law grads this year. And then you are stuck up shit's creek, because people barely give a shit about UoMontana grads inside of Montana.

For every market centered school, there are less law jobs in that market than there are students graduating from that law school, and that's not taking into account the schools who are good enough to send their graduates to multiple markets.

[BarbellDreams]

Its a problem for people who jump at a halfride at Fordham but laugh at a halfride at UoMontana assuming the applicant wants to practice in Montana. If there is nothing else I've learned in law school its ALL non t14's are regional. VERY regional. No one gives a shit about your Fordham degree in Montana.

Well for the 3.2 jobs opening up in Montana this year I am sure this works, but unfortunately there will be more than 3.2 UoMontana law grads this year. And then you are stuck up shit's creek, because people barely give a shit about UoMontana grads inside of Montana.

For every market centered school, there are less law jobs in that market than there are students graduating from that law school, and that's not taking into account the schools who are good enough to send their graduates to multiple markets.

Yes, and by that theory no one should be going to law school. Yet I don't see anyone on TLS advocating that. Notice how I specifically stated that what I suggest is a last resort assuming you A.) Can't get into a normal school, B.) Absolutely refuse to retake (This is usually TCR) C.) Absolutely refuse to work for a year or two not only to improve your chances because of WE but also to put away $ to pay tuition and D.) Refuse to consider the myriad of better career choices with less work hours, better pay, and higher chances of being employed. It is not a good, choice, but its one that at least has a chance. The threat title was "No chance", thus I decided to chime in to clear it up.

[dingbat]

But Fordham on a half-ride is also a solid deal

To me, the issue isn't that there's jobs for everyone. It's just that there's a complete dearth of jobs in some places. In Jersey, if there was only 1 law school, it'd be fine. While there would still be unemployed grads, the numbers wouldn't be astronomical like they are now. In NY, there are too many law schools as well. However, there's a clear hierarchy and while NYLS and Touro grads go from student loans to food stamps, Columbia and NYU grads by and large don't need to worry about anything.

This isn't where I was going. To rephrase, are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh to employ the majority of people at both schools, or is it more like jersey where none of the schools are a good idea because there's a significantly greater number of law school grads compared to the number of jobs?

[dingbat]

Its a problem for people who jump at a halfride at Fordham but laugh at a halfride at UoMontana assuming the applicant wants to practice in Montana. If there is nothing else I've learned in law school its ALL non t14's are regional. VERY regional. No one gives a shit about your Fordham degree in Montana.

Well for the 3.2 jobs opening up in Montana this year I am sure this works, but unfortunately there will be more than 3.2 UoMontana law grads this year. And then you are stuck up shit's creek, because people barely give a shit about UoMontana grads inside of Montana.

For every market centered school, there are less law jobs in that market than there are students graduating from that law school, and that's not taking into account the schools who are good enough to send their graduates to multiple markets.

Yes, and by that theory no one should be going to law school. Yet I don't see anyone on TLS advocating that. Notice how I specifically stated that what I suggest is a last resort assuming you A.) Can't get into a normal school, B.) Absolutely refuse to retake (This is usually TCR) C.) Absolutely refuse to work for a year or two not only to improve your chances because of WE but also to put away $ to pay tuition and D.) Refuse to consider the myriad of better career choices with less work hours, better pay, and higher chances of being employed. It is not a good, choice, but its one that at least has a chance. The threat title was "No chance", thus I decided to chime in to clear it up.

you forgot E) have no chance of succeeding at life in any other way, and F) think investing in lottery tickets is a perfectly sound retirement plan

[BarbellDreams]

Also almost all of the T14s are regional, so there's that.

Not entirely based on placement. Duke certainly won't have trouble going to NY. With that said, after having gone through law school I can say that TLS's gloom and doom is the way to go. I know plenty of grads with median grades from T2's who locked up biglaw, but also know T2 grads with LR who have nothing with no hope on the horizon. I also have become convinced that while GULC is a nice school and all it has absolutely no business being in the t14. A person who wants to practice in Texas and goes to UT has a MUCH better chance than a person who wants to practice in DC and goes to GULC. Seeing all the hopeful 0L's paying sticker at their TT's in hopes of landing biglaw leads me to believe that reading TLS should be mandated for a potential applicant.

[dingbat]

Also almost all of the T14s are regional, so there's that.

Not entirely based on placement. Duke certainly won't have trouble going to NY. With that said, after having gone through law school I can say that TLS's gloom and doom is the way to go. I know plenty of grads with median grades from T2's who locked up biglaw, but also know T2 grads with LR who have nothing with no hope on the horizon. I also have become convinced that while GULC is a nice school and all it has absolutely no business being in the t14. A person who wants to practice in Texas and goes to UT has a MUCH better chance than a person who wants to practice in DC and goes to GULC. Seeing all the hopeful 0L's paying sticker at their TT's in hopes of landing biglaw leads me to believe that reading TLS should be mandated for a potential applicant.

Screw that, just make them watch the first 15 minutes of "The Verdict".

[BarbellDreams]

This isn't where I was going. To rephrase, are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh to employ the majority of people at both schools, or is it more like jersey where none of the schools are a good idea because there's a significantly greater number of law school grads compared to the number of jobs?

Hard to say. If we're talking "majority" as in more than 50% then yeah, I am confident that a median student who was willing to hustle would get a job at either school here. Would bottom 25% be getting a job comfortably? Probably not. If I wanted to stay here (I dont) I would have multiple options for employment at graduation (NOT good paying by any means, but legit jobs nevertheless).

There is simply no market where you can comfortably say ANY school outside of t14 (UT substituted for GULC) would give you that guarantee of a job though. I think Fordham is a quality school, but I dont think you're guaranteed anything going there. Same for USC. Same for ND. Etc. I tell all undergrad kids who ask me about it two things. A. I am not as debt adverse as most people. B. Based on that, I would only pay sticker at t14 (Again, UT instead of GULC) and if the school you want is outside the t14 I high suggest you keep your total debt including interest at graduation below 6 figures and preferably below 75K. I would be fairly comfortably coming out of ND with 60K in debt. 160K? Not so much.

[bk1]

Hard to say. If we're talking "majority" as in more than 50% then yeah, I am confident that a median student who was willing to hustle would get a job at either school here.

Really?

[BarbellDreams]

Hard to say. If we're talking "majority" as in more than 50% then yeah, I am confident that a median student who was willing to hustle would get a job at either school here.

Really?

I am well aware of the stats bk, you and I have both been around long enough to know that. I am speaking that based on my perspective from being in the market I believe a median student at Duquesne who actually hustles will not be disadvantaged over a Pitt grad or whoever else we compete with (very mild Case Western and UWV presence here I guess).

[bk1]

I am well aware of the stats bk, you and I have both been around long enough to know that. I am speaking that based on my perspective from being in the market I believe a median student at Duquesne who actually hustles will not be disadvantaged over a Pitt grad or whoever else we compete with (very mild Case Western and UWV presence here I guess).

The problem is that we're in this murky hypothetical world of a million assumptions. I think I can categorically say that sub3/sub160 person who satisfies all your elements (no retake, won't consider alternative careers, etc) and goes to law school will not actually be hustling.

This really is a pointless discussion. Was dingbat exaggerating? Maybe. Some sub3/sub160s will get lucky, but the chance is so small that nobody in that position should be taking that risk.

[BarbellDreams]

I am well aware of the stats bk, you and I have both been around long enough to know that. I am speaking that based on my perspective from being in the market I believe a median student at Duquesne who actually hustles will not be disadvantaged over a Pitt grad or whoever else we compete with (very mild Case Western and UWV presence here I guess).

The problem is that we're in this murky hypothetical world of a million assumptions. I think I can categorically say that sub3/sub160 person who satisfies all your elements (no retake, won't consider alternative careers, etc) and goes to law school will not actually be hustling.

This really is a pointless discussion. Was dingbat exaggerating? Maybe. Some sub3/sub160s will get lucky, but the chance is so small that nobody in that position should be taking that risk.

On no, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Especially given that a person with those stats who doesn't hustle, does not attempt to network, does not take any clinics/practicums, does not find a part time small firm job and does not get on MT/MC while just taking classes and sleeping a lot will absolutely not find anything.

I have noticed that the further I got through law school the more conservative I became in picking schools. Generally, I agree that a person with under 3.0 and 160 is doomed. Hell, Under 3.5 and 165 is likely doomed. If 0L's listen to absolutely nothing else they need to listen to 2 things: Schools are VERY regional and the debt will matter, it will matter a lot. A 40K PD job ain't that bad with 20K in debt, but that same job with 120K in debt is a nightmare.

[dowu]

What about URMS?

[drmguy]

I don't agree. I can point to a handful of success stories among the thousands of failures.

[dowu]

I don't agree. I can point to a handful of success stories among the thousands of failures.

Seriously. There is no reason for eveeyone to be so cynical. Plenty of people are finding jobs.

[20130312]

I don't agree. I can point to a handful of success stories among the thousands of failures.

Seriously. There is no reason for eveeyone to be so cynical. Plenty of people are finding jobs.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

[drmguy]

I don't agree. I can point to a handful of success stories among the thousands of failures.

Seriously. There is no reason for eveeyone to be so cynical. Plenty of people are finding jobs.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

He's right. You just said finding jobs. I implied complete success.

[dowu]

I don't agree. I can point to a handful of success stories among the thousands of failures.

Seriously. There is no reason for eveeyone to be so cynical. Plenty of people are finding jobs.

Yeah, that's exactly what he said.

He's right. You just said finding jobs. I implied complete success.

Either way man.

[seancris]

This isn't where I was going. To rephrase, are there enough jobs in Pittsburgh to employ the majority of people at both schools, or is it more like jersey where none of the schools are a good idea because there's a significantly greater number of law school grads compared to the number of jobs?

Hard to say. If we're talking "majority" as in more than 50% then yeah, I am confident that a median student who was willing to hustle would get a job at either school here. Would bottom 25% be getting a job comfortably? Probably not. If I wanted to stay here (I dont) I would have multiple options for employment at graduation (NOT good paying by any means, but legit jobs nevertheless).

Curious what your definition of "hustling" entails. What should a median student do to improve his/her chances of employment in your market?

[timbs4339]

You can't "hustle" a job that doesn't exist. What about "there are no jobs" do people still not understand?