Full-rides you'd turn down HYS-sticker for (poll included) Forum

[SemperLegal]

CCN and maybe P over H
Maybe CCN over S
None over Y

I think this might be the credited response (especially since I want biglaw)

Then you need to look at this: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 1025183138

and not this: http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

NU w/scholarship is just as good a choice. If you are really looking at biglaw only, than a lot of the HYS edge goes out the window, you are essentially paying the extra 200k for an opportunity that you don't really care for, academia. The only caveat to that is that YS have a softer grading policy, so you are going to have a better time, and have less of a risk.

You should also take into consideration these outcome charts, since they account (better) for selection bias: http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf


The way I see it, you are going to be fairly pissed if a huge chunk of your Biglaw salary is going to service a debt that you could have avoided; you will be straight fucked if you don't land biglaw and have that debt.


TDLR:
Really, without any interest in academia, prestige gov, or prestige PI, at HYS you are paying 200k for a safety net if you do ~10% below what you would at some of the lower T14's. I think some of that edge is also eaten up by the more extreme gunners and geniuses that you will be competing with.

Just asking, but how much of that low percentage of HYS grads to big law is choice? Also, if you get Yale and mis biglaw, what have you lost with loan repayment kicking in for you?

Thats why I posted the last link, http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf, IMO NJ250+Art III Clerkships+ Gov.+PI is about the closest you can get to finding out how "deep" you can be in the class and get any employment. There is some gamesmanship when it comes to the last two, but for the most part its as accurate as you can get.

So, with that metric, the depth of the classes that have "choice" outcomes:
Yale ~85%
Stanford ~80%
Harvard ~78%
and, at random:
Duke ~72%
NU ~ 65% (with an additional huge "Other Firm" and "Business" designation)
GULC ~60%

Of course, when it comes to the infamous "prestige" HYS have the edge from graduation until retirement (e.g. V-5, Office of Legal Counsel, ACLU, academia), but that nor relevent if you are just gunning for the 160k

[cahwc12]

I'd take any of those schools on a full ride over HYS sticker. If you've never tasted debt before I think you just don't know how terrible that much debt is even with a great job.

The only school I would consider at sticker vs full ride else would be Stanford (although I would never have such a luxury).

[TheZoid]

Have you considered any non-T14s? If I were you I'd consider Rutgers––Camden

Lol yea, you should definitely turn down a full ride at t-14 for rutttgers- might even get dat stipend.

[sinfiery]

Of course, when it comes to the infamous "prestige" HYS have the edge from graduation until retirement (e.g. V-5, Office of Legal Counsel, ACLU, academia), but that nor relevent if you are just gunning for the 160k

Considering the average big law stint is 4 years, the prestige may still have an impact.


Depends if HYS helps you at all when it comes to exit options or do all the benefits die out after your first job?

TLS doesn't really have an insight about this from what I've seen, and I don't blame them. Seems hard to quantify.

[bernaldiaz]

Of course, when it comes to the infamous "prestige" HYS have the edge from graduation until retirement (e.g. V-5, Office of Legal Counsel, ACLU, academia), but that nor relevent if you are just gunning for the 160k

Considering the average big law stint is 4 years, the prestige may still have an impact.


Depends if HYS helps you at all when it comes to exit options or do all the benefits die out after your first job?

TLS doesn't really have an insight about this from what I've seen, and I don't blame them. Seems hard to quantify.

Agreed. Was really wondering this myself. The investment in HYS becomes worth it if HYS graduates have a higher rate of staying in big law, making partner, etc.

[TrialLawyer16]

I'd take any of those schools on a full ride over HYS sticker. If you've never tasted debt before I think you just don't know how terrible that much debt is even with a great job.

[sinfiery]

I'd take any of those schools on a full ride over HYS sticker. If you've never tasted debt before I think you just don't know how terrible that much debt is even with a great job.

Man, TLS sure is risk averse.

Being poor isn't that bad, I promise.

[Tom Joad]

Agreed. Was really wondering this myself. The investment in HYS becomes worth it if HYS graduates have a higher rate of staying in big law, making partner, etc.

I am not that far along yet, but I really don't think your school has much to do with your career after getting hired. A big firm want associates that make the partners the most money, and chances are they probably have plenty of J.D. Harvard Law Schools on their website already.

[sinfiery]

Agreed. Was really wondering this myself. The investment in HYS becomes worth it if HYS graduates have a higher rate of staying in big law, making partner, etc.

I am not that far along yet, but I really don't think your school has much to do with your career after getting hired. A big firm want associates that make the partners the most money, and chances are they probably have plenty of J.D. Harvard Law Schools on their website already.

What about when trying to break into GC?

Wouldn't HYS on your resume give you a boost there? Or is it all connections/big law recs?

What about HYS connections?

[florida1949]

I'd take any of those schools on a full ride over HYS sticker. If you've never tasted debt before I think you just don't know how terrible that much debt is even with a great job.

Man, TLS sure is risk averse.

Being poor isn't that bad, I promise.

I'd imagine the 'being poor' aspect isn't what's terrible about having debt but rather the stress from knowing you owe someone $200k and one of the only ways of paying it off is dependent on holding a job that has a very high rate of attrition. I would think the stress from this combined with the (insert adjective here) working conditions at BigLaw could be pretty tough on a person.

[SemperLegal]

I'd take any of those schools on a full ride over HYS sticker. If you've never tasted debt before I think you just don't know how terrible that much debt is even with a great job.

Man, TLS sure is risk averse.

Being poor isn't that bad, I promise.

Its not a matter of being risk adverse, theres is just no reward to offset it. The Gold medal in this case is still 160k. Going to HYS just makes that outcome more likely.


If he was gunning for some sexy and rare law job, than it would be a matter of high risk/high reward.

[sinfiery]

Its not a matter of being risk adverse, theres is just no reward to offset it. The Gold medal in this case is still 160k. Going to HYS just makes that outcome more likely.

If he was gunning for some sexy and rare law job, than it would be a matter of high risk/high reward.

Person I quoted wasn't biglaw or bust.

Hopefully there are some rare and sexy jobs one can gun for with a JD.

Hopefully the pinnacle isn't biglaw. Financially even.


But I don't know.

I'd imagine the 'being poor' aspect isn't what's terrible about having debt but rather the stress from knowing you owe someone $200k and one of the only ways of paying it off is dependent on holding a job that has a very high rate of attrition. I would think the stress from this combined with the (insert adjective here) working conditions at BigLaw could be pretty tough on a person.

If you can't get/handle biglaw, go be poor and pay off your 200k debt slowly.

That's the worst case scenario. It ain't all that bad. Thus the comment.

[Tom Joad]

What about when you are canned from your biglaw job after only paying off half of your loans? That sounds scary even with a HYS degree.

[sinfiery]

What about when you are canned from your biglaw job after only paying off half of your loans? That sounds scary even with a HYS degree.

that would suck. I'd coast off LIPP.


edit:meh

[RuTTgersOneL]

What about when you are canned from your biglaw job after only paying off half of your loans? That sounds scary even with a HYS degree.

that would suck. I'd coast off LIPP.


edit:meh

This is why, with his numbers, he should consider the diamond in the rough that is ruttgers–camden. Almost 90% of the alumni I've stalked on LinkedIn are working in big philly firms.

[JamMasterJ]

What about when you are canned from your biglaw job after only paying off half of your loans? That sounds scary even with a HYS degree.

lateral opportunities are still likely better at HYS than other schools.

[Elston Gunn]

CCN and maybe P over H
Maybe CCN over S
None over Y

This is what I decided.

[nickb285]

.

[TrialLawyer16]

I'd imagine the 'being poor' aspect isn't what's terrible about having debt but rather the stress from knowing you owe someone $200k and one of the only ways of paying it off is dependent on holding a job that has a very high rate of attrition. I would think the stress from this combined with the (insert adjective here) working conditions at BigLaw could be pretty tough on a person.

If you can't get/handle biglaw, go be poor and pay off your 200k debt slowly.

That's the worst case scenario. It ain't all that bad. Thus the comment.

Florida1949 actually had a very well-thought out comment. Paying off a high amount of student loans while on a 50-60k a year salary isn't as easy as many of you guys think it is, trust me. I'm speaking from experience. I'll bring a little bit of realism into this topic and hopefully open up a few eyes.

Let's say you miss BigLaw, you get lucky, and find a job willing to pay you 60k (unlikely)

*Not accounting for LRAP
Salary 60,000
Take home (78%) 46,800
Monthly take-home 3,900

Expenses
Rent 1000 (very cheap 1 bdroom apt)
Utilities 100
Student loans 1700 **BEFORE INTEREST (10-year plan on 200k in pre-interest debt)
Food 250
Car payment 250
Car Insurance 150
Car gas 120
Phone 85

Total recurring expenses 3655
Disposable income (Monthly take-home minus expenses) $245

As you can see this leaves you with a whopping $245 of disposable income a month after you only pay your normal monthly recurring bills. That is the bare minimum of what you would have. That $245 has to be used for any hobby you'd like to do (gym membership, vacation, movies) and anything that happens to pop up (flat tires, car inspection, etc.) Can you imagine even trying to start a family on this? You're not even paying a mortgage at this point, you're just living in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment. And this is the job you'd have AFTER you have that shiny new HYS degree with it's 200k debt. And this is an overly generous breakdown. Most jobs do not pay 60k if you miss biglaw and almost all schools will cost you more than $200k at sticker. This also is being extremely generous by not taking interest into account. If we do take interest into account you would not even have the $245 - you probably would not make enough money to pay all of your bills. We all have to realize the risk we're taking here by going to law school. It's a risk I'm willing to take to do what I believe I'm meant to do, but a risk nonetheless - one bigger than it appears many people here realize. Unusually long-winded post for me, but I feel like it's for a good cause.

[sinfiery]

Florida1949 actually had a very well-thought out comment. Paying off a high amount of student loans while on a 50-60k a year salary isn't as easy as many of you guys think it is, trust me. I'm speaking from experience. I'll bring a little bit of realism into this topic and hopefully open up a few eyes.

Let's say you miss BigLaw, you get lucky, and find a job willing to pay you 60k (unlikely)

*Not accounting for LRAP
Salary 60,000
Take home (78%) 46,800
Monthly take-home 3,900

Expenses
Rent 1000 (very cheap 1 bdroom apt)
Utilities 100
Student loans 1700 **BEFORE INTEREST (10-year plan on 200k in pre-interest debt)
Food 250
Car payment 250
Car Insurance 150
Car gas 120
Phone 85

Total recurring expenses 3655
Disposable income (Monthly take-home minus expenses) $245

As you can see this leaves you with a whopping $245 of disposable income a month after you only pay your normal monthly recurring bills. That is the bare minimum of what you would have. That $245 has to be used for any hobby you'd like to do (gym membership, vacation, movies) and anything that happens to pop up (flat tires, car inspection, etc.) Can you imagine even trying to start a family on this? You're not even paying a mortgage at this point, you're just living in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment. And this is the job you'd have AFTER you have that shiny new HYS degree with it's 200k debt. And this is an overly generous breakdown. Most jobs do not pay 60k if you miss biglaw and almost all schools will cost you more than $200k at sticker. This also is being extremely generous by not taking interest into account. If we do take interest into account you would not even have the $245 - you probably would not make enough money to pay all of your bills. We all have to realize the risk we're taking here by going to law school. It's a risk I'm willing to take to do what I believe I'm meant to do, but a risk nonetheless - one bigger than it appears many people here realize. Unusually long-winded post for me, but I feel like it's for a good cause.

Oh come the fuck on.
First off

So, with that metric, the depth of the classes that have "choice" outcomes:
Yale ~85%
Stanford ~80%
Harvard ~78%

Of students get their first choice of Biglaw/academia/PI/Clerkship/

The rest is in business and other firm jobs for these schools.


So apparently if you are going the business/other firm route, you are at about an aggregate 17% chance.
Add in to the fact that many at HYS would be making absolute bank going the business route because of prior connections...that number would go drastically lower for people who didn't achieve their first choice..
(Plus consulting firms come to OCI...every year..)

(And these are based on statistics from an economy that will definitely be worse off than when the C/O 2016 comes out)
But that doesn't matter.

Let's discuss the worst case scenario.

Your assumptions are presumably for NYC. 1k rent? The fuck. That rents a mansion where I went to undergrad, serious.


Add on that you assume 60k salary. That isn't the starting salary. That is the 10 year average of what you will make.

Given all this, you have 26k after tax income after paying back your loans. In your worst case scenario.

That's not even poor, that's middle-class in America.

Being poor isn't that bad. Middle-class is awesome.

I stand by my point.
Just because living like an average American looks scary on paper doesn't mean it is. (Most Middle-class Americans don't have 26k to spend on COL after their debt obligations. You are even better off and will be substantially better off in 10 years)

[gguuueessttt]

I'm surprised so many more people chose Columbia and Chicago than NYU. Aren't all three very comparable in their stats? I always thought of Columbia and NYU as peer schools with Columbia having just a slight edge over NYU. I even have friends at Columbia Law that agree the difference between the two is not significant. Am I missing something?

[moonman157]

It seems like one of the biggest draws for choosing HYS at sticker over another T14 for free is having the HYS name on your application that will continue to provide opportunities for you after your first employment. Is this true for the rest of the T14, i.e. a Columbia degree will open doors for you that a Cornell degree wont, even if both people are looking for exit options out of the same biglaw firm?

[sinfiery]

26K for COL in NYC and LA is poor. Hell that's food stamps poor.

Median NYC (Most expensive city to live in the country) income is 48k for a household

After tax income = $35,500

debt obligations probably brings it near 30k for the median allowed for COL for the entire city. Manhattan and all. For a household.

You're almost at the 50% for households all by yourself in the most expensive city to live in.


Average Americans don't make much.

[sinfiery]

26K for COL in NYC and LA is poor. Hell that's food stamps poor.

Median NYC (Most expensive city to live in the country) income is 48k for a household

After tax income = $35,500

debt obligations probably brings it near 30k for the median allowed for COL for the entire city. Manhattan and all. For a household.

You're almost at the 50% for households all by yourself in the most expensive city to live in.


Average Americans don't make much.

So you're saying that after tax and DO, that the take home pay would be 30K?

If DO is estimated at ~5k, yeah. Per household. In NYC.

Oddly enough, it's lower than the national average. Weird.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... ity#Income

[Elston Gunn]

I've actually made this decision, so I'll add some of my thoughts. (Note, this mostly only applies to Yale. It's unclear to me how similar things are at Stanford, but outcomes are definitely weaker at Harvard--i.e. big law is not a near-guarantee and you still have to standout to get an AIII clerkship.)

1. The clerkship factor.

I suspect the biggest practical difference between going to Yale vs. CCN is in clerkship chances. My 1L host at ASW stated confidently that anyone who was willing to work in a flyover could get a district clerkship. Obviously, he was somewhat exaggerating, but it's reasonable to think a YLS student who really wants to clerk has something like a 60-70% chance of making that happen.

The question is, how valuable is clerking? Well, if you want to be a professor, work in the federal government or in prestige PI, it's pretty much a requirement. Another area where it's very important (and one I think is chronically ignored in TLS conventional wisdom of Academia/FedGov/Prestige PI) is doing appellate litigation at a big firm, as well as working at the elite Lit shops that give you a real chance to make partner. These are the things that litigation-minded people really gun for.

Another thing to consider is the exit options and job security that come with having been a federal clerk. It'd be hard to quantify the effect, but I think it's undoubtedly there. (There was a thread a while back by an HLS grad five years out, who I think said he didn't think the Harvard name necessarily carried that much weight in changing jobs, but that his clerkships definitely did.) I don't know if it will stop you from being Lathamed, but I would bet a lot that any Lathamed associates with clerkships had a softer landing.

2. Big law

At Yale, some people do strike out at FIP, but essentially every single person who is persistent and doesn't have a resume that screams that they don't want to work at firm finds a job paying 145K plus. And even people with those resumes almost always find something if they're really persistent.

In addition to that security is dramatically increased ability to get jobs in more difficult cities, particularly D.C. So something you'd want to take into account is how comfortable you are working BigLaw in NYC vs. some other market.

3. Best/Worst case scenarios vs. median outcomes

When making this decision, I think it's especially important to think about: what's the best reasonable outcome for me (80th percentile), the most likely outcome, and the worst reasonable outcome (10th percentile) at the different schools?

In the end, I thought the best and worst outcomes at Yale at near-sticker were both preferable to the equivalent at Chicago at none, but the median outcome at Chicago was better. I decided to gamble a little, knowing the downside risk was very low. But this is very personal--for instance, at the 80th percentile, it's certainly not obvious whether clerkship + elite DC appellate/lit boutique or BigFed + a lot of debt and a solid LRAP is better or worse than middling DC BigLaw or elite NYC BigLaw plus little to no debt. (Though I imagine most will say the latter is obviously better, it wasn't in my eyes.)

3. Quality of Life

I cannot tell you how easy first semester 1L is here, and after this I will still probably never take more than 1 or 2 exams in the same semester. I'm not sure how much that's worth, but it's a real difference.

4. Litigation vs. Transactional

I think this distinction is nearly as important as the distinction between Academia and BigLaw in making this decision. If you want transactional, most of the benefits of Yale won't be relevant to you (though you may get very excited at the idea of getting a V5 from way below the theoretical median, it's certainly not any guarantee). Granted, most people don't really know what they want before they start law school, though I think a fair number of people do.