Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year? Forum

[rayiner]

I really don't buy into the TLS dogma that Georgetown is a "lesser" T14 at all... the full-time students have the same numerical quality as MVPD, and the education itself certainly isn't any different. If I'm a recruiter, I'm going to be just as impressed by a Georgetown grad as a Penn or Duke or Northwestern grad, all else being equal.

This is probably true, but it's not the primary determinant of placement power within the T14. It's what distinguishes the T14 from the T50, but it's not what explains the differences amongst the non-HYS T14.

If you're a recruiter in NY, say at CSM/S&C/DPW, you might very well think of Duke, Northwestern, and Georgetown as fungible. So you might purchase 40 interview slots at each, send a couple of recruiters to each, and tell each group of interviewers to extend a total of 10 callbacks to people within the top 1/4 of the class. You don't care that Georgetown has 2-3x as many people that need jobs--the schools are totally fungible to you. You're job as a recruiter is to pick up all the (rare) HYS grads you can, use CLS/NYU grads to really fill in the bulk of the summer class, and pick up a few from each of the other T14 for variety and to appease the couple of partners at the firm from each of those schools.

If you're a recruiter in Chicago, say at K&E, you do the same thing, except you replace U Chicago/Northwestern for CLS/NYU. You'll pick up all the HYS grads you can, but U Chi/NU will comprise the bulk of your summer class.

If you're a recruiter in DC, say at Wilmer Hale, you can fill your class with HYS grads! You'll hire a bunch from Georgetown and UVA because they're the hometown schools, but you don't go very deep into either, because you don't have to. You can pick from amongst the tippy-top of the class at those schools and the rest of the T14 because you don't have very many spots to fill, and LR kids at all of those schools are dying to work for you.

So yes, if you're a kid from Seattle looking to go back, and will be getting your job by mailing firms back home, Georgetown and Duke are totally fungible. A recruiter will see them as equal. But that's not how most students get their jobs at T14's. They get them through OCI, and that's what kills GULC. I think my year (OCI 2010), the average GULC-er had 9 interviews. At NU it was 14, and we thought it was a disaster.

[Aberzombie1892]

Rayiner, I think everyone agrees that your take on the OCI call back allocation process is probably accurate. The thought we are having isn't that GTown sucks because it receives fewer call back slots at NLJ firms; the idea here is that we believe that students may not be taking advantage of job opportunities in other markets due to a dedication to DC. For example, a GTown student from rural Texas may only target DC/MD/North VA firms instead of spreading out bids to New York and Texas.

If this is the case, which circumstantially it appears it may be, it explains why GTowns placement lags behind peer schools (non top 6 [Penn] or 7 [NYU] schools).

OP - There is no possible way to completely mitigate risk. Your chances at a big firm are likely a lot higher if you are (1) prepared to return to a market that you have ties to and (2) are prepared to go to NY. However, I stress the former. I don't know where you are from or where you went to undergrad, but be sure you are comfortable returning there if your goal is an NLJ firm.

[abc12345675]

Coach K > John Thompson III.........BUT Iverson and Ewing > Grant Hill and Carlos Boozer............so I say it's really a toss-up

[rayiner]

Rayiner, I think everyone agrees that your take on the OCI call back allocation process is probably accurate. The thought we are having isn't that GTown sucks because it receives fewer call back slots at NLJ firms; the idea here is that we believe that students may not be taking advantage of job opportunities in other markets due to a dedication to DC. For example, a GTown student from rural Texas may only target DC/MD/North VA firms instead of spreading out bids to New York and Texas.

I agree that the DC-focus hurts their aggregate employment stats. However, I don't think that explains the full discrepancy. Specifically, DaleCooper said:

I just think Georgetown is a huge school full of people who want to work in DC, and that makes it a scary choice if you want DC or a market dominated by one of your other options. But if you want NYC or Miami or Seattle or something, it probably doesn't matter.

I disagree that Duke and GULC are fungible for NYC. NYC is still a market where you're going to be getting your jobs from OCI. And tons of people at Georgetown bid on NYC, and you're still going to run into the OCI limitations. Also, at most schools many firms will interview for multiple offices. If the firm you want is interviewing for NYC and DC on the same schedule, you'll have a harder time getting an interview than you would from Duke.

I think in secondary markets, like Miami or Seattle, where you'll get a job by mailing and those firms aren't going to be seeing hundreds of Georgetown resumes, the two schools probably become fungible.

[wolf]

I chose Georgetown with 100K over Duke, and UT at sticker. I will be bidding my home market in Texas at OCI, and mass mailing. I guess I'll see how well it works out for me. I have no desire to bid DC.

[rowingmyboat]

Did you try and negotiate with Duke? I think if you told them about gtown's offer, they might throw you a little something and make it an easier decision.

And let's not forget Duke has the Alaska Law Review, so if NC/DC/NYC/Texas don't pan out, you can always head out there...

[abc12345675]

Did you try and negotiate with Duke? I think if you told them about gtown's offer, they might throw you a little something and make it an easier decision.

And let's not forget Duke has the Alaska Law Review, so if NC/DC/NYC/Texas don't pan out, you can always head out there...

Anchorage is sick. No joke

[evolved306]

Update: I will know either tonight or tomorrow morning if Duke Law will offer any money. Fingers crossed.

[moonman157]

Good luck with the scholarship money!

Just out of curiosity, why is DC so hard to crack/desirable? Is it just the opportunities through the federal government, or are the private firms there superior as well? What does DC offer that NYC doesn't in terms of careers? Thanks!

[evolved306]

Update: I just heard back from Duke. They are offering me $67,500 (22,500 a year). Now I just need to hear back from Georgetown.

[PARTY]

i know this has been talked about in other threads, but please see the following:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... nteractive

georgeTTTown is on the second page when sorted by schools with most grads having jd-required jobs.

[TTTehehe]

I'd say you're sitting pretty with both offers. Both schools are great, so coming out with as little debt as possible should be your priority.

[wolf]

Update: I just heard back from Duke. They are offering me $67,500 (22,500 a year). Now I just need to hear back from Georgetown.

I think Duke is the right choice here. More money and better placement.

[evolved306]

Update: I am meeting with GULC's financial aid office on Friday to negotiate more money. Any tips on what I should say? What stats I should bring up?

[2014]

Without insulting them call to attention recent placement numbers and the fact that attending at close to full cost is a risk that you feel unsettled taking.

[jenesaislaw]

Don't forget to ask them what evidence they have that the non-law jobs people took for 2011 and 2010 are actually desirable, and why the 2007, 2008, and 2009 grads weren't taking them. They will claim "this is DC, we do more than prepare people for law practice." They will not provide evidence, though. In 2009, 1.8% of the class was in a full-time JD Preferred job. It was 18.5% in 2010, and 20% in 2011. They need to explain why these classes were different at GULC, and why the same phenomena did not happen at Duke as they remained pretty steady from year to year.

[evolved306]

Don't forget to ask them what evidence they have that the non-law jobs people took for 2011 and 2010 are actually desirable, and why the 2007, 2008, and 2009 grads weren't taking them. They will claim "this is DC, we do more than prepare people for law practice." They will not provide evidence, though. In 2009, 1.8% of the class was in a full-time JD Preferred job. It was 18.5% in 2010, and 20% in 2011. They need to explain why these classes were different at GULC, and why the same phenomena did not happen at Duke as they remained pretty steady from year to year.

Where did you get those numbers?

[jenesaislaw]

2008: --LinkRemoved--
2009: --LinkRemoved--
2010: --LinkRemoved--
2011: --LinkRemoved--


Also, here's 2011 data by U.S. News tier to show that people are more likely to take the JD Advantage jobs and Other Professional jobs when they're not at elite schools:



Via Professor Henderson

[Aberzombie1892]

OP, if Duke is offering you ~$67,000, you need at least $100K from GTown.

[evolved306]

OP, if Duke is offering you ~$67,000, you need at least $100K from GTown.

I agree.

I will ask for 105K on Friday. I have been warming up to the idea of going to Duke instead of Georgetown.

I have a question though about future career prospects. I think I would like to go into lobbying or political consulting/campaign management later in my career (probably in my 40s). I understand that both schools will allow me to enter these professions, but would Georgetown be better for this? My assumption was that it would be, but that was just an assumption after all.

[dabbadon8]

OP, if Duke is offering you ~$67,000, you need at least $100K from GTown.

I agree.

I will ask for 105K on Friday. I have been warming up to the idea of going to Duke instead of Georgetown.

I have a question though about future career prospects. I think I would like to go into lobbying or political consulting/campaign management later in my career (probably in my 40s). I understand that both schools will allow me to enter these professions, but would Georgetown be better for this? My assumption was that it would be, but that was just an assumption after all.

I can't imagine your school choice would make much of a difference that far along in your career. Especially in a nonlegal field.

[evolved306]

OP, if Duke is offering you ~$67,000, you need at least $100K from GTown.

I agree.

I will ask for 105K on Friday. I have been warming up to the idea of going to Duke instead of Georgetown.

I have a question though about future career prospects. I think I would like to go into lobbying or political consulting/campaign management later in my career (probably in my 40s). I understand that both schools will allow me to enter these professions, but would Georgetown be better for this? My assumption was that it would be, but that was just an assumption after all.

I can't imagine your school choice would make much of a difference that far along in your career. Especially in a nonlegal field.

What if it was earlier than? As soon as debt was paid off

[DaleCooper]

I can't imagine your school choice would make much of a difference that far along in your career. Especially in a nonlegal field.

What if it was earlier than? As soon as debt was paid off.

Like he said, "that far along in your career".

I don't know that you'll get a good answer here... I'd talk to someone in the field. Once you ask things other than "I want to do BigLaw in NYC, the market School X dominates, or the big city closest to my hometown", TLS stops being as helpful. There just isn't a lot of data out there.

(Then again, most people in most fields haven't really thought much about how to systematically maximize a random JD's chances of breaking into said field... so it's probably kind of a black box.)

[evolved306]

Georgetown has increased their scholarship to 90K

assuming cost of living is about 15k more in DC, Georgetown is about 10-15K cheaper than Duke.

I am leaning towards Duke but still conflicted. If only Georgetown had better placement and was close to home. Those are the reason why I am choosing Duke (Location to friends/family and safer NLJ placement). The cost of those advantages are steep though; I will have to live with myself and go to sleep every night knowing that I went to Duke.

[rayiner]

Georgetown has increased their scholarship to 90K

assuming cost of living is about 15k more in DC, Georgetown is about 10-15K cheaper than Duke.

I am leaning towards Duke but still conflicted. If only Georgetown had better placement and was close to home. Those are the reason why I am choosing Duke (Location to friends/family and safer NLJ placement). The cost of those advantages are steep though; I will have to live with myself and go to sleep every night knowing that I went to Duke.

Duke is easily worth $20k more than GULC.

Duke has much better placement, isn't appreciably cheaper, and is much closer to home. This is a no-brainer.