Choosing a law school for vets 101 Forum

[Rotor]

I have a question and I feel like my situation isn't super common because none of the folks I served with at other schools are handling the GI bill this way.

In undergrad (past few years), my state has a program that caps tuition and fees at public universities at a low amount for combat vets so it actually made more sense to use the old Montgomery GI bill instead of the post 9/11 GI bill for undergrad. I was told that since the MGIB was only 36 months and the post 9/11 was a full 48 months, at the end of the 36 months of MGIB I could switch to the post 9/11 GIB and continue on for an additional year.

My situation is I have about 6 months of MGIB left, can I switch to the post 9/11 when I start law school and have around 18 (6 months left from MGIB and 12 till the end of post 9/11) months left and then have the GI bill for my first two years or is the VA going to find a way to crush my dreams?

Post 9/11 GI Bill is also only 36 months of benefits. But, because you only get benefits during the 9 months of the academic year, it will be enough to get through a four-year program.

Now, specifically to your situation, if you contributed to MGIB, you are entitled to elect MGIB or Post 9/11. Once you elect Post 9/11, you may not go back. HOWEVER if you elect while you are still MGIB eligible, you may only transfer your MGIB months remaining. So if you only have a few months left, it isn't generally worth transferring.

Now, here is the interesting bit for you

(a) Limit on training under two or more programs. The aggregate period for which any person may receive assistance under two or more of the following laws may not exceed 48 months (or the part-time equivalent):

. . .

(4) 38 U.S.C. chapters 30 [MGIB], . . ., 33[Post 9/11], . . . .

SO, if you do NOT elect Post 9/11 until your MGIB is fully expended, you will be eligible for another 12 months of benefits.

You won't get as much for your first few months under MGIB, but 6 months Post 9/11<<<6 months MGIB+12 months Post 9/11

Edit to add: However, you should probably confirm with the VA. They are the ones who know the rules and make the eligibility determination.

[TTTehehe]

It may be the crack that I'm smoking, but I'm not sure about your calculation. If a vet is receiving in-state tuition, YRP status doesn't matter because the VA will fork over the 50k to attend. So yes, there is no cost difference in that sense.

If, however, the vet is paying OOS for the first year, and is YRP eligible, they are paying 54k tuition. The VA is paying 17.5k up front, and matching Cal's 5k with another 5k. So total tuition going to Cal will be 27.5k. The OOS vet student will need to pay 26.5k his/her 1L year, and hopefully get in-state the next two years. Unless I'm missing something, that's a noteworthy cost difference.

Nope. Cal is public. Therefore full ride up to in-state for 100% eligibles. There is no 17.5k limit. THAT is why there is little need for YRP.

And as nice as it would be to post "99,999/unlimited" on the GI Bill web site to show support, the state budgeting rules have to take it into account even if it doesn't get used.

1. I think we're saying the same thing.

2. Conceded, for the public schools at least; but the rest of the T14(private) have no excuse.

[Rotor]

It may be the crack that I'm smoking, but I'm not sure about your calculation. If a vet is receiving in-state tuition, YRP status doesn't matter because the VA will fork over the 50k to attend. So yes, there is no cost difference in that sense.

If, however, the vet is paying OOS for the first year, and is YRP eligible, they are paying 54k tuition. The VA is paying 17.5k up front, and matching Cal's 5k with another 5k. So total tuition going to Cal will be 27.5k. The OOS vet student will need to pay 26.5k his/her 1L year, and hopefully get in-state the next two years. Unless I'm missing something, that's a noteworthy cost difference.

Nope. Cal is public. Therefore full ride up to in-state for 100% eligibles. There is no 17.5k limit. THAT is why there is little need for YRP.

And as nice as it would be to post "99,999/unlimited" on the GI Bill web site to show support, the state budgeting rules have to take it into account even if it doesn't get used.

1. I think we're saying the same thing.

2. Conceded, for the public schools at least; but the rest of the T14(private) have no excuse.

Well, you had said that an OOS vet would have to pay 26.5k out of pocket (see bolded). That part wasn't true. If in state=50k and OOS=54k, basic GI Bill pays 50K, YRP VA pays 2k and Berk pays 2k. Even if the person doesn't get in state for 2L/3L there should be enough slots for those years too.

[TTTehehe]

It may be the crack that I'm smoking, but I'm not sure about your calculation. If a vet is receiving in-state tuition, YRP status doesn't matter because the VA will fork over the 50k to attend. So yes, there is no cost difference in that sense.

If, however, the vet is paying OOS for the first year, and is YRP eligible, they are paying 54k tuition. The VA is paying 17.5k up front, and matching Cal's 5k with another 5k. So total tuition going to Cal will be 27.5k. The OOS vet student will need to pay 26.5k his/her 1L year, and hopefully get in-state the next two years. Unless I'm missing something, that's a noteworthy cost difference.

Nope. Cal is public. Therefore full ride up to in-state for 100% eligibles. There is no 17.5k limit. THAT is why there is little need for YRP.

And as nice as it would be to post "99,999/unlimited" on the GI Bill web site to show support, the state budgeting rules have to take it into account even if it doesn't get used.

1. I think we're saying the same thing.

2. Conceded, for the public schools at least; but the rest of the T14(private) have no excuse.

Well, you had said that an OOS vet would have to pay 26.5k out of pocket (see bolded). That part wasn't true. If in state=50k and OOS=54k, basic GI Bill pays 50K, YRP VA pays 2k and Berk pays 2k. Even if the person doesn't get in state for 2L/3L there should be enough slots for those years too.

I see what you're saying. I stand by that calculation, though. If the vet is from VA, and is attending Cal during his/her 1L year, he/she will be charged 54k for OOS rate. If a vet is charged OOS tuition, the VA will only pay highest in-state undergraduate rate [at school attended]. I'm not sure what the highest in-state undergraduate tuition rate is for CA Cal, but 50k does not sound right for undergraduate yearly rate.

I forget where the table is, but I recall PA having the highest in-state per credit hour cap. CA was pretty low...

No gripes with Cal. Fabulous school. Did my undergrad in the UC system - LA. So no bias, just sayin'. If you can show me the highest in-state rate for OOS vets that the VA will pay for UC, and it covers OOS Boalt fees, I will concede.

Edit: I think Cal is 13-15k a year for in-state UG? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Rotor]

I see what you're saying. I stand by that calculation, though. If the vet is from VA, and is attending Cal during his/her 1L year, he/she will be charged 54k for OOS rate. If a vet is charged OOS tuition, the VA will only pay highest in-state undergraduate rate [at school attended]. I'm not sure what the highest in-state undergraduate tuition rate is for CA Cal, but 50k does not sound right for undergraduate yearly rate.

I forget where the table is, but I recall PA having the highest in-state per credit hour cap. CA was pretty low...

No gripes with Cal. Fabulous school. Did my undergrad in the UC system - LA. So no bias, just sayin'. If you can show me the highest in-state rate for OOS vets that the VA will pay for UC, and it covers OOS Boalt fees, I will concede.

Edit: I think Cal is 13-15k a year for in-state UG? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The undergraduate rate was only applicable to post 9/11 1.0. The new version pays up to in state for the particular course of study.

The link to the US Code is here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/38/3313

Note that it only talks about programs of education and not the old language of "highest in state undergraduate education.

And here is the link that the VA provides from the GI Bill homepage. https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers ... 38/kw/1438

#1 is the applicable one for most. Again--public schools all fees up to the in state max.

I admit the VA page is confusing, because they still have 2009-2011 rates up. However you need to be looking at 2011-2012 rules because it changed this past year. But note the difference in the links for the various years.

http://gibill.va.gov/resources/benefits ... ables.html

Is that enough for you?

If not, it may help me if you can point me to where you are seeing that since Aug 1, 2011: a) OOS would be capped at 17.5k (an assertion you made earlier) or b) fees are charged at UG rates.

(Note: 38 CFR --where the new regs will go--has not been released for 2012 yet. The law was passed on 8/3/11. The most recent CFR was published 7/1/11; thus it has the old program info)

[JCFindley]

I see what you're saying. I stand by that calculation, though. If the vet is from VA, and is attending Cal during his/her 1L year, he/she will be charged 54k for OOS rate. If a vet is charged OOS tuition, the VA will only pay highest in-state undergraduate rate [at school attended]. I'm not sure what the highest in-state undergraduate tuition rate is for CA Cal, but 50k does not sound right for undergraduate yearly rate.

I forget where the table is, but I recall PA having the highest in-state per credit hour cap. CA was pretty low...

No gripes with Cal. Fabulous school. Did my undergrad in the UC system - LA. So no bias, just sayin'. If you can show me the highest in-state rate for OOS vets that the VA will pay for UC, and it covers OOS Boalt fees, I will concede.

Edit: I think Cal is 13-15k a year for in-state UG? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The undergraduate rate was only applicable to post 9/11 1.0. The new version pays up to in state for the particular course of study.

The link to the US Code is here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/38/3313

Note that it only talks about programs of education and not the old language of "highest in state undergraduate education.

And here is the link that the VA provides from the GI Bill homepage. https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers ... 38/kw/1438

#1 is the applicable one for most. Again--public schools all fees up to the in state max.

I admit the VA page is confusing, because they still have 2009-2011 rates up. However you need to be looking at 2011-2012 rules because it changed this past year. But note the difference in the links for the various years.

http://gibill.va.gov/resources/benefits ... ables.html

Is that enough for you?

If not, it may help me if you can point me to where you are seeing that since Aug 1, 2011: a) OOS would be capped at 17.5k (an assertion you made earlier) or b) fees are charged at UG rates.

(Note: 38 CFR --where the new regs will go--has not been released for 2012 yet. The law was passed on 8/3/11. The most recent CFR was published 7/1/11; thus it has the old program info)

Thanks Rotor. All I had seen myself was the old rules governing in state tuition. Of course, if it were still the old rules I wouldn't be qualifying either because they didn't count active duty title 32 time (Guard and reserve AGR time.) I had close to enough title 10 time (activated Guard/Reserve) but the changed made it much better for us part timers.

[TTTehehe]

I see what you're saying. I stand by that calculation, though. If the vet is from VA, and is attending Cal during his/her 1L year, he/she will be charged 54k for OOS rate. If a vet is charged OOS tuition, the VA will only pay highest in-state undergraduate rate [at school attended]. I'm not sure what the highest in-state undergraduate tuition rate is for CA Cal, but 50k does not sound right for undergraduate yearly rate.

I forget where the table is, but I recall PA having the highest in-state per credit hour cap. CA was pretty low...

No gripes with Cal. Fabulous school. Did my undergrad in the UC system - LA. So no bias, just sayin'. If you can show me the highest in-state rate for OOS vets that the VA will pay for UC, and it covers OOS Boalt fees, I will concede.

Edit: I think Cal is 13-15k a year for in-state UG? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The undergraduate rate was only applicable to post 9/11 1.0. The new version pays up to in state for the particular course of study.

The link to the US Code is here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/38/3313

Note that it only talks about programs of education and not the old language of "highest in state undergraduate education.

And here is the link that the VA provides from the GI Bill homepage. https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers ... 38/kw/1438

#1 is the applicable one for most. Again--public schools all fees up to the in state max.

I admit the VA page is confusing, because they still have 2009-2011 rates up. However you need to be looking at 2011-2012 rules because it changed this past year. But note the difference in the links for the various years.

http://gibill.va.gov/resources/benefits ... ables.html

Is that enough for you?

If not, it may help me if you can point me to where you are seeing that since Aug 1, 2011: a) OOS would be capped at 17.5k (an assertion you made earlier) or b) fees are charged at UG rates.

(Note: 38 CFR --where the new regs will go--has not been released for 2012 yet. The law was passed on 8/3/11. The most recent CFR was published 7/1/11; thus it has the old program info)

When I was at the VA Headquarters recently (D.C.), I spoke to some people at the CRO, swapping no shit there I was stories, I recall them mentioning 17.5k cap on public schools if OOS.

Regardless, as I cannot find any literature to validate my statement, I'll defer to you and your links, and take your word for it.

Edit: Regarding non-resident rate - it seems the links I read are dated 2011, so they may be out of date and may have changed with the new rules. A 2012 article on Army Times did say a non-resident vet would pay the difference between resident and non-resident rate. So, if as you said, the rules allow vets to receive highest in-state for a program, then I concede that the vet will probably only come out of pocket 54k-50k= 4k, and if YRP eligible, may gain a surplus of 1k.

[Rotor]

No problem. As I mentioned, the VA could be much more clear.

One caveat to your last conclusion: YRP will only pay up to max fees. The vet won't get the excess. Berkeley Law kept it at 5k just to be sure that if the Regents monkeyed with OOS fees after they had to commit/submit the limits to the VA.

That may well be what you meant, I just want to make sure it's clear for posterity.

[TTTehehe]

No problem. As I mentioned, the VA could be much more clear.

One caveat to your last conclusion: YRP will only pay up to max fees. The vet won't get the excess. Berkeley Law kept it at 5k just to be sure that if the Regents monkeyed with OOS fees after they had to commit/submit the limits to the VA.

That may well be what you meant, I just want to make sure it's clear for posterity.

Well, I got the excess at my school. Granted, I received a departmental scholarship on top of GI Bill/YRP.

[Rotor]

No problem. As I mentioned, the VA could be much more clear.

One caveat to your last conclusion: YRP will only pay up to max fees. The vet won't get the excess. Berkeley Law kept it at 5k just to be sure that if the Regents monkeyed with OOS fees after they had to commit/submit the limits to the VA.

That may well be what you meant, I just want to make sure it's clear for posterity.

Well, I got the excess at my school. Granted, I received a departmental scholarship on top of GI Bill/YRP.

THAT you can get as long as it's classified--at least in part--for living expenses or something other than tuition and fees. Good for you! Congrats.

[h2oplyer7]

From now on, I am going to respond to posts, "Retake LSAT, join military, use 9/11 GI Bill."

Thank you GIB!

[TTTehehe]

From now on, I am going to respond to posts, "Retake LSAT, join military, use 9/11 GI Bill."

Thank you GIB!

I think the clock is already running for sweeping changes to the 9/11 GI Bill. Won't happen until OEF is all said and done, but the current system is not fiscally sustainable. Many members of Congress already feel that it is "too generous."

[SchopenhauerFTW]

Nice work, JC.

[tyler.durden]

Great info, thanks!