Am I going to get eaten alive at Harvard? Forum

[IAFG]

I welcome you to perceive my point in light of the important facts that you brought to light.

Not sure you still have a point since the number of people going into another degree are undefined.

But it's cool, everyone I know who is doing another degree after their JD says they planned to do that all along anyway, so I guess we'll just take that at face value.

The point is that there are at least a few people who do, in fact, before pursuing employment, plan to get another degree right after law school. The difference between these people and the ones you are talking about is that these people are saying it before they have a chance to apply for jobs.

The people I'm talking about certainly said stuff like that before doing OCI. Striking out sure did seem to push them along though.

[sunynp]

I don't think that at all. I think most of the T14, your outcome will more likely than not be such that you will consider it having been worth paying sticker price. I was responding to the comment earlier: "I think most people feel Harvard is worth sticker for even the bottom of the class." For the vast majority of Harvard's class, the degree will be well worth sticker. But for dozens of people, it won't be.

I will look for the thread I am thinking of, I must have misread it. I agree that for most of the T14 paying sticker is risky- but not many people here seem to agree with that.

I still think that OP should go to Harvard. Or not go to law school at all.

[IAFG]

Aren't you more worried about getting a real, high-stakes job and finding out that you have no idea how to work hard and grind?

Yeah I think this is the bigger concern.

I have to imagine anyone who has worked at a firm has heard a few stories about people who start there, fuck around, don't really ever work, lateral a couple times, then disappear off the face of the earth. I would guess this is how their stories start.

[rayiner]

I don't think that at all. I think most of the T14, your outcome will more likely than not be such that you will consider it having been worth paying sticker price. I was responding to the comment earlier: "I think most people feel Harvard is worth sticker for even the bottom of the class." For the vast majority of Harvard's class, the degree will be well worth sticker. But for dozens of people, it won't be.

I will look for the thread I am thinking of, I must have misread it. I agree that for most of the T14 paying sticker is risky- but not many people here seem to agree with that.

I still think that OP should go to Harvard. Or not go to law school at all.

I think there have been other posts where you calculated that going to some schools sticker can pay off over the longterm - but maybe that depends on getting biglaw out of school?

I think you understood me correctly. I think the risk-weighted return at the average T14 justifies sticker price. But that presupposes a world before you know your grades (i.e. before your possible outcomes collapse into an actual outcome). My point re: Harvard is that even though a priori the expected return is totally worth it, if you know that you're actually at the bottom of the class, you'll likely not see a great return. The reason it's worth while is that most people will not end up at the bottom of the class.

[bk1]

Um, am I really going to be the first person to call troll here?

Great job calling yourself out. Enjoy your time off.

[094320]

..

[bk1]

I'm actually fairly concerned that I don't have the work ethic for firm life. My current summer job is 9-5 and I'm exhausted when I get home. I don't know how I'm going to be able to pull 10am-12pm sort of days. Do people just adjust to that??

This is kinda how I feel. Though I think pull off the crazy hours but the rest of my life will suffer immensely. I'll be morbidly obese, alcoholic and all alone.

[094320]

..

[bk1]

I'm actually fairly concerned that I don't have the work ethic for firm life. My current summer job is 9-5 and I'm exhausted when I get home. I don't know how I'm going to be able to pull 10am-12pm sort of days. Do people just adjust to that??

This is kinda how I feel. Though I think pull off the crazy hours but the rest of my life will suffer immensely. I'll be morbidly obese, alcoholic and all alone.

There's a thread for that. If I see you in there in a couple of years I'll run intervention.

I'll be so FA I won't have the time to post in FA.

[Scotchandsoda]

I'm going to HLS, but am starting to get a little concerned about it. My whole life I've had a halfass work ethic. I was a middling high school student, then banged out a near-perfect SAT score and got into a decent college. My college had insane grade inflation (I believe the average GPA was over 3.5), and I skated by on minimal work, spending way more time playing video games and going after girls than studying, eventually coasting to a 3.7 GPA in an easy major (Actually, if you account for all the hard science kids' low GPAs and their effect on my school's overall average GPA, I bet my GPA was around the average for my department). I decided on law school, studied for the LSAT for a couple months, and then absolutely knocked it out of the park. Then several months ago I was accepted at HLS (I'll be paying sticker).

My understanding is that people don't ever really fail out of the top schools, so I guess that isn't my concern per se (though correct me if I'm mistaken there). But it's obvious to me that I won't be able to skate by now that my peer group will be one of the heaviest concentrations of elite academic talent anywhere in the world. And I definitely have no real delusions that I'm suddenly going to become studious and diligent in the next couple months when my work ethic has been so questionable for my entire life.

I've read here about how HLS is soooooo not cutthroat, but even if that's true this is a matter of classmates being just as intelligent (and undoubtedly in many cases more intelligent) as/than me, coupled with a dramatically stronger work ethic. Am I blowing this out of proportion, and I'm going to be fine? Alternatively, if I graduate at the bottom of my class from HLS, is it still worth sticker? I'm aware this question probably comes off all kinds of terrible, but it's a legit concern of mine at this point and I would appreciate input on it.

-___-

[094320]

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[NoleinNY]

I'm going to HLS, but am starting to get a little concerned about it. My whole life I've had a halfass work ethic. I was a middling high school student, then banged out a near-perfect SAT score and got into a decent college. My college had insane grade inflation (I believe the average GPA was over 3.5), and I skated by on minimal work, spending way more time playing video games and going after girls than studying, eventually coasting to a 3.7 GPA in an easy major (Actually, if you account for all the hard science kids' low GPAs and their effect on my school's overall average GPA, I bet my GPA was around the average for my department). I decided on law school, studied for the LSAT for a couple months, and then absolutely knocked it out of the park. Then several months ago I was accepted at HLS (I'll be paying sticker).

My understanding is that people don't ever really fail out of the top schools, so I guess that isn't my concern per se (though correct me if I'm mistaken there). But it's obvious to me that I won't be able to skate by now that my peer group will be one of the heaviest concentrations of elite academic talent anywhere in the world. And I definitely have no real delusions that I'm suddenly going to become studious and diligent in the next couple months when my work ethic has been so questionable for my entire life.

I've read here about how HLS is soooooo not cutthroat, but even if that's true this is a matter of classmates being just as intelligent (and undoubtedly in many cases more intelligent) as/than me, coupled with a dramatically stronger work ethic. Am I blowing this out of proportion, and I'm going to be fine? Alternatively, if I graduate at the bottom of my class from HLS, is it still worth sticker? I'm aware this question probably comes off all kinds of terrible, but it's a legit concern of mine at this point and I would appreciate input on it.

True Story: I met a HLS 2L at a summer associate luncheon last year who didn't know what happens when juries don't convict someone.

[jas1503]

my peer group will be one of the heaviest concentrations of elite academic talent anywhere in the world

[Kring345]

TL;DR any of the responses. But, for what it's worth, I feel like I'm going to be the dumbest person at CLS this fall. Like fo realz. I intend to use this (legitimate) fear as motivation to study and succeed.

I think your problem isn't feeling stoopid, it's being lazy. But channel the same mojo. Fear can be a good thing.

[Tom Joad]

Wish you the best of luck, OP. I don't really understand any of the flack you have taken. There are probably many similar people in your situation.

[AreJay711]

I actually think being smart (in the right way) >>>>>>>>>>> working hard for law school grades. I spent last semester drinking and watching westerns to prepare for my internship in Texas and knocked out a 3.7. The semester before I studied a lot and got a 3.3.

[bk1]

Now that's depressing.

Hopefully models and bottles will cure the depression.

[rayiner]

my peer group will be one of the heaviest concentrations of elite academic talent anywhere in the world

The deeply ironic thing is that MIT is like walking distance away.

[catholicgirl]

Aren't you more worried about getting a real, high-stakes job and finding out that you have no idea how to work hard and grind?

Yeah I think this is the bigger concern.

I have to imagine anyone who has worked at a firm has heard a few stories about people who start there, fuck around, don't really ever work, lateral a couple times, then disappear off the face of the earth. I would guess this is how their stories start.

This. My partner's two best friends are in medical school and they have classmates whose stories are very similar to the OP's. IT's amazing to me how many people manage to skate by on a combination of luck and good test-taking ability. Eventually though, it catches up to them. Both of my partner's friends have classmates who failed the USMLEs or their boards simply because they ran out of luck and didn't know how to study.

OP, there will probably be some people like you at HLS. The difference between them and you is if you figure out how to knuckle down. Stop relying on luck. Pretend you already spent your last miracle before you entered law school. That mentality could really make a difference.

[englawyer]

there is a reasonably sized contingent of people at HLS that are either (1) not too bright but somehow sneaked in or (2) don't care about grades whatsoever (for example, if they have a guaranteed job from a pre-LS employer). i think OP will get median pwned (or top 70% pwned) but will not be at the literal bottom of the class.

[rickgrimes69]

Aren't you more worried about getting a real, high-stakes job and finding out that you have no idea how to work hard and grind?

Yeah I think this is the bigger concern.

I have to imagine anyone who has worked at a firm has heard a few stories about people who start there, fuck around, don't really ever work, lateral a couple times, then disappear off the face of the earth. I would guess this is how their stories start.

I'm actually fairly concerned that I don't have the work ethic for firm life. My current summer job is 9-5 and I'm exhausted when I get home. I don't know how I'm going to be able to pull 10am-12pm sort of days. Do people just adjust to that??

I worked as a para in NYC biglaw and I definitely billed longer hours than many associates. Some of them worked crazy hours but just as many worked relatively normal weeks (when there wasn't a filing or something). I had to adjust to 60-80 hour weeks pretty quickly. During one massive, months long production, at one point I had worked for a month straight, pulling full 8+ hour days all weekend. It sucks, but you get used to it. You sort of adjust to where 12 hour days are normal and going home before 9:30 is 'early'. The resources and benefits of working for a large firm were nice as well: dinner for working late and a private car home. Things definitely calmed down after a couple months and the project was eventually canned; I would say the remainder of my time I worked an average of 60 hour weeks and that was comparable to a lot of the (mostly senior) associates. The more junior associates, especially the first years and staff attorneys, billed quite a bit more.

[scrowell]

No. See this thread: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=123652

[timbs4339]

I went through the same experience although I was at CLS. Remember that although there are clearly people who have successfully jumped through every single hoop (elite HS, elite college, etc etc) there are plenty of people like you. You're not the only person to "sneak" into a top school with a crappy work ethic and good numbers. You'll be surprised.

That said, I had trouble adjusting during 1L although I promised myself I'd have a better work ethic (lasted about a month). Even the people who slack off aren't really "slacking" and they learn much more with the effort they put in. The rule at my UG was that you could count on half or more of the class to be either too dumb to learn the material, too lazy to show up to class or hand in homework, or both. At an elite law school, the number of people too dumb to understand the material will be 0, and there will only be a few people who completely check out, usually for psychological reasons.

The good news is that if you put in a minimum amount of work you should be able to pull median grades and get a biglaw offer. You just have to figure out what that minimum effort is and commit to doing it. Grading in the middle is very random unless the exam is MC.

Actually working is, IMO, a different beast than class. Although I'm not a particularly diligent student, at work I'm extremely efficient and responsible. I guess I feel an obligation to deliver results when I'm working for someone else that I just don't feel when studying.

Prepare to be embarrassed a lot in class though.

[Linksys]

I'm going to HLS, but am starting to get a little concerned about it. My whole life I've had a halfass work ethic. I was a middling high school student, then banged out a near-perfect SAT score and got into a decent college. My college had insane grade inflation (I believe the average GPA was over 3.5), and I skated by on minimal work, spending way more time playing video games and going after girls than studying, eventually coasting to a 3.7 GPA in an easy major (Actually, if you account for all the hard science kids' low GPAs and their effect on my school's overall average GPA, I bet my GPA was around the average for my department). I decided on law school, studied for the LSAT for a couple months, and then absolutely knocked it out of the park. Then several months ago I was accepted at HLS (I'll be paying sticker).

My understanding is that people don't ever really fail out of the top schools, so I guess that isn't my concern per se (though correct me if I'm mistaken there). But it's obvious to me that I won't be able to skate by now that my peer group will be one of the heaviest concentrations of elite academic talent anywhere in the world. And I definitely have no real delusions that I'm suddenly going to become studious and diligent in the next couple months when my work ethic has been so questionable for my entire life.

I've read here about how HLS is soooooo not cutthroat, but even if that's true this is a matter of classmates being just as intelligent (and undoubtedly in many cases more intelligent) as/than me, coupled with a dramatically stronger work ethic. Am I blowing this out of proportion, and I'm going to be fine? Alternatively, if I graduate at the bottom of my class from HLS, is it still worth sticker? I'm aware this question probably comes off all kinds of terrible, but it's a legit concern of mine at this point and I would appreciate input on it.

Flame.

OP's first post.

We need to have have an IP check.

[bk1]

Flame.

OP's first post.

We need to have have an IP check.

It's been taken care of already.

See http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p5601877