Fordham $$ vs. Northwestern Sticker Forum

[Elston Gunn]

OP: Don't go into debt for $287,000 for any law school outside of the top 3 or 4. Top 3 is okay not only due to superior placement, but also because you wouldn't have qualified for financial aid which indicates a substantial net worth or, at least, the ability to fund three years of law school.

Not to derail, but this very false.

[CanadianWolf]

Because you didn't receive any financial aid at H,Y or Stanford ? Upon what factors do H,Y & S base financial aid decisions since they offer need based aid ?

Again, if you have timely filed for financial aid at H,Y or S and only receive loans, then what percentage of students receive grant/scholarship money ? After reviewing lawschoolnumbers.com for H,Y & S, seems like a very low percentage report receiving scholarships, but I wonder whether that's because need based grants are not reported as scholarships on lawschoolnumbers.com.

[Robespierre]

Am I correct in understanding that OP will be paying only about $20,000 per year (plus interest if this amount is borrowed) for Fordham after the $30,000 per year scholarship & due to no need to pay living expenses since OP can live at home ? Asking because I do not understand how OP assumes $110,000 of debt for Fordham.

Great point, I was wondering the same thing.

Maybe OP is getting room but not board, or room and board but he still has to kick in some money, or some such arrangement. He most definitely should have stated in his original post that he would have reduced, or no, living expense at Fordham. It has a huge effect on his decision.

[Elston Gunn]

Because you didn't receive any financial aid at H,Y or Stanford ? Upon what factors do H,Y & S base financial aid decisions since they offer need based aid ?

Again, if you have timely filed for financial aid at H,Y or S and only receive loans, then what percentage of students receive grant/scholarship money ? After reviewing lawschoolnumbers.com for H,Y & S, seems like a very low percentage report receiving scholarships, but I wonder whether that's because need based grants are not reported as scholarships on lawschoolnumbers.com.

At Y, about 50% get some grants. I think it's similar at S and lower at H. I have enough savings to cover one year of COL and fairly well off parents who won't be helping me pay for school, and got no grants at Y and 10k at S (which just made COA the same as Y sticker). The grants are also non-renewable and are lowered for the next year if you do an SA.

[CanadianWolf]

Yale's website states that 80% receive financial aid with 50% receiving grant money.

Your most recent post bolsters my point. Your parents are very well off financially & you have savings. Whether or not one's financially able parents help with law school costs doesn't generate financial aid grants for most applicants. Nevertheless, Stanford still offered you $10,000 in grant aid funds. This reinforces my earlier stated position--although it may be a bit overstated.

[CanadianWolf]

Stanford Law's website states that 80% receive financial aid with an average of $25,000 fellowship (grant aid) per student.

[Elston Gunn]

Yale's website states that 80% receive financial aid with 50% receiving grant money.

This is exactly what I said. Financial aid here just means loans.

Your most recent post bolsters my point. Your parents are very well off financially & you have savings.

Let's not do this here. But "at least being able to fund three years of law school" (ie have 220K just lying around) =/= have enough cash to cover one year of cost of living. But if all you're saying is you probably wont graduate with full sticker debt from HYS (though 200K plus interest is nothing to sneeze at), then, yes, you're right.

[CanadianWolf]

Harvard Law states that 82% receive financial aid with 44% of all JD students receiving some grant money.

The key point regarding Yale is that 50% receive grant money.

Also you wrote that you have : "...fairly well off parents who won't be helping me pay for law school." This is in addition to your savings. Seems to support my assertion that you disputed.

[flem]

The key point regarding Yale is that 50% receive grant money.

At Y, about 50% get some grants.

What exactly is the point of contention?

[Samara]

P.S. @Samara: Guess that you're paying full sticker price at Northwestern & that your suggests that misery loves company.

That is indeed the case. In fairness, I may be biased towards paying sticker for T14s because, as a pretty big splitter, it's my only realistic shot at biglaw and I have fallback options. Still, I think sticker at NU is a reasonable risk to take for most people, provided you know what you're getting into.

[sshaqsb]

Am I correct in understanding that OP will be paying only about $20,000 per year (plus interest if this amount is borrowed) for Fordham after the $30,000 per year scholarship & due to no need to pay living expenses since OP can live at home ? Asking because I do not understand how OP assumes $110,000 of debt for Fordham.

My apologies, it seems I have created a bit of confusion. I plan on living much closer my first year (thus, apartment), and then moving back home for year 2 and 3. It comes out to roughly 100K, but I prefer to add an extra 10k for unforeseen expenses.

[CanadianWolf]

Based on past NLJ250 placement, paying sticker price at the Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, Northwestern & Penn seems justifiable. Strong arguments can be made for doing so at NYU, Cornell & Virginia as well. That leaves only the folks at Michigan, Georgetown, Duke & Berkeley that I may have offended.

[Samara]

Based on past NLJ250 placement, paying sticker price at the Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, Northwestern & Penn seems justifiable. Strong arguments can be made for doing so at NYU, Cornell & Virginia as well. That leaves only the folks at Michigan, Georgetown, Duke & Berkeley that I may have offended.

tyty

[splitsplat]

join the debt party with me and the other NWU@sticker folks.

[oldad]

That financial calculator thing is the coolest thing I have ever seen.

[RickyDnwhyc]

This all depends on how debt averse you are. If you're Biglaw or bust, NU obviously.

If you're very debt averse, Fordham at ~100k is manageable without BigLaw.

NU at 200+ has the potential cripple you for the rest of your life without BigLaw.

NU gives you a solid 25% higher chance at BigLaw, however, you have a 50% chance of being crippled for life. Personally I would never take the chance.

I don't like either of these choices but if I was dead set on Law School I would go with Fordham and network my ass off in NYC rather than banking on BigLaw.

[sunynp]

P.S. @Samara: Guess that you're paying full sticker price at Northwestern & that your suggests that misery loves company.

That is indeed the case. In fairness, I may be biased towards paying sticker for T14s because, as a pretty big splitter, it's my only realistic shot at biglaw and I have fallback options. Still, I think sticker at NU is a reasonable risk to take for most people, provided you know what you're getting into.

I'm curious as to why you think NU -- one of the most expensive schools-- is worth sticker? I understand that it might be a splitters best chance at the T14. That doesn't make it worth sticker.

From rayiner's unemployment thread based on 2011 statistics shows about 25% of the class is underemployed. (73 out of 278)

LST shows their "large firm" rate (firms over 101 lawyers) is 53.3% and the class of 2016 is paying $291,100.
Edit to add:The monthly loan payment at 7.2% is $3,400 for ten years. Even on big law $160,000 to start, that will be a hard payment to maintain.

I guess we can disagree as to whether those numbers make NU worth sticker.

[rayiner]

P.S. @Samara: Guess that you're paying full sticker price at Northwestern & that your suggests that misery loves company.

That is indeed the case. In fairness, I may be biased towards paying sticker for T14s because, as a pretty big splitter, it's my only realistic shot at biglaw and I have fallback options. Still, I think sticker at NU is a reasonable risk to take for most people, provided you know what you're getting into.

I'm curious as to why you think NU -- one of the most expensive schools-- is worth sticker? I understand that it might be a splitters best chance at the T14. That doesn't make it worth sticker.

From rayiner's unemployment thread based on 2011 statistics shows about 25% of the class is underemployed. (73 out of 278)

At a certain level I think the discussion is silly. Canadian Wolf's position that only HYS is worth sticker because if you don't get aid there it means you have the means to pay sticker anyway is a very insightful one. Even at Harvard and Columbia, 15-20% of C/O 2011 ended up underemployed. If you are too risk averse to take those odds, then law school is just not worth sticker, period. If you've got an appetite for risk, it's not objectively unreasonable to pay sticker at a school where you have a 25% chance at a bad outcome.

Also, being a splitter does affect the calculus of what's "worth it." It's inherently a question about relative options. If you're a splitter, your alternatives probably aren't that great, retaking to get scholarship isn't an alternative, etc.

[sunynp]

I would never put myself in a position where I knew I had a good chance of being on IBR the next 20 or 25 years. Basically you will be putting yourself in debt for the best part of your adult life for a chance at a career that is far from guaranteed. To me, IBR is for saving the worst cases of underemployment from committing suicide out of despair. It isn't designed to allow people to justify bad financial decisions or to take a gamble on their future

I definitely wouldn't go almost $300,00 in debt for a chance I might be slightly better off than with my undergrad degree. And I wouldn't consider it if I had other options.

The idea of a $3,400 a month loan payment for 10 years is appalling. Very few people are going to be able to repay that amount of debt.

To me that isn't an extreme risk-averse decision. It is simply common sense.

[sunynp]

P.S. @Samara: Guess that you're paying full sticker price at Northwestern & that your suggests that misery loves company.

That is indeed the case. In fairness, I may be biased towards paying sticker for T14s because, as a pretty big splitter, it's my only realistic shot at biglaw and I have fallback options. Still, I think sticker at NU is a reasonable risk to take for most people, provided you know what you're getting into.

I'm curious as to why you think NU -- one of the most expensive schools-- is worth sticker? I understand that it might be a splitters best chance at the T14. That doesn't make it worth sticker.

From rayiner's unemployment thread based on 2011 statistics shows about 25% of the class is underemployed. (73 out of 278)

At a certain level I think the discussion is silly. Canadian Wolf's position that only HYS is worth sticker because if you don't get aid there it means you have the means to pay sticker anyway is a very insightful one. Even at Harvard and Columbia, 15-20% of C/O 2011 ended up underemployed. If you are too risk averse to take those odds, then law school is just not worth sticker, period. If you've got an appetite for risk, it's not objectively unreasonable to pay sticker at a school where you have a 25% chance at a bad outcome.

Also, being a splitter does affect the calculus of what's "worth it." It's inherently a question about relative options. If you're a splitter, your alternatives probably aren't that great, retaking to get scholarship isn't an alternative, etc.

You may disagree but it isn't silly. I'm perfectly happy to say that the 25% risk of underemployment or a 53.3% chance at a firm of 101 lawyers is not worth $300,000 of debt.

It is too bad that grads don't post their experiences after they leave school and dont have jobs. Just look at some of the posts by people who have struck out or were no offered. What will you do in their position? Did you see the people from top schools who now think going to law school was a terrible mistake?

Once you have that much non-dischargable debt it will affect virtually every major decision you make. What you can afford to do, where you live and what job you have to have ( and keep for 10 year) will be determined by the payment you have to make. There is no going back. It is crazy because you can get out of a bad marriage or walk away from a mortgage, but there is no way to get out from under this massive amount of money until it is repaid or forgiven ( 20 or 25 year later.)

[otnemem]

If you've got an appetite for risk, it's not objectively unreasonable to pay sticker at a school where you have a 25% chance at a bad outcome.

For me, it depends on how 'bad' of an outcome it is. I'm a 1L, looking at graduating with about 140k in debt from a CCN, assuming I don't work at a firm my second summer. If I'm one of the 15-20% that doesn't get Biglaw, decent midlaw, or a LRAP qualifying job, I'll be in a bad situation financially, maybe taking home 3k a month after taxes while having a $1700 a month loan payment. Maybe a little worse, maybe a little better. That would be rough, but I wouldn't be totally screwed. There are at least ways out; I could refinance my loan to 15 or 20 years, or lean on my significant other for a while, until I am hopefully making enough to pay down my debt at the normal ten year rate. Not ideal, but doable.

If my loan were $3400 a month, I would effectively have no options, other than IBR for 20 years and a tax bomb at the end.

I can live with a 15-20% chance of a bad outcome, I can't live with a 15-20% chance of being financially ruined for the rest of my adult life.

[3ThrowAway99]

I would never put myself in a position where I knew I had a good chance of being on IBR the next 20 or 25 years. Basically you will be putting yourself in debt for the best part of your adult life for a chance at a career that is far from guaranteed. To me, IBR is for saving the worst cases of underemployment from committing suicide out of despair. It isn't designed to allow people to justify bad financial decisions or to take a gamble on their future

I definitely wouldn't go almost $300,00 in debt for a chance I might be slightly better off than with my undergrad degree. And I wouldn't consider it if I had other options.

The idea of a $3,400 a month loan payment for 10 years is appalling. Very few people are going to be able to repay that amount of debt.

To me that isn't an extreme risk-averse decision. It is simply common sense.

Dude, it's called LRAP. You neglected to mention that top schools will pay off half your loans or more if you end up with a shit job.

[sunynp]

I would never put myself in a position where I knew I had a good chance of being on IBR the next 20 or 25 years. Basically you will be putting yourself in debt for the best part of your adult life for a chance at a career that is far from guaranteed. To me, IBR is for saving the worst cases of underemployment from committing suicide out of despair. It isn't designed to allow people to justify bad financial decisions or to take a gamble on their future

I definitely wouldn't go almost $300,00 in debt for a chance I might be slightly better off than with my undergrad degree. And I wouldn't consider it if I had other options.

The idea of a $3,400 a month loan payment for 10 years is appalling. Very few people are going to be able to repay that amount of debt.

To me that isn't an extreme risk-averse decision. It is simply common sense.

Dude, it's called LRAP. You neglected to mention that top schools will pay off half your loans or more if you end up with a shit job.

Not sure where you get that. Northwestern's LRAP only applies to government or not- for- profit jobs. They cover the IBR payment plus some interest if you are employed as an attorney for the government or not-for-profit.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

[bk1]

I would never put myself in a position where I knew I had a good chance of being on IBR the next 20 or 25 years. Basically you will be putting yourself in debt for the best part of your adult life for a chance at a career that is far from guaranteed. To me, IBR is for saving the worst cases of underemployment from committing suicide out of despair. It isn't designed to allow people to justify bad financial decisions or to take a gamble on their future

I definitely wouldn't go almost $300,00 in debt for a chance I might be slightly better off than with my undergrad degree. And I wouldn't consider it if I had other options.

The idea of a $3,400 a month loan payment for 10 years is appalling. Very few people are going to be able to repay that amount of debt.

To me that isn't an extreme risk-averse decision. It is simply common sense.

To be fair, while splitters will have biases to fight, that doesn't mean that someone in your position doesn't also have their own biases the opposite way.

Are you really claiming that very few within the T14 will be able to repay 300k?

[3ThrowAway99]

I would never put myself in a position where I knew I had a good chance of being on IBR the next 20 or 25 years. Basically you will be putting yourself in debt for the best part of your adult life for a chance at a career that is far from guaranteed. To me, IBR is for saving the worst cases of underemployment from committing suicide out of despair. It isn't designed to allow people to justify bad financial decisions or to take a gamble on their future

I definitely wouldn't go almost $300,00 in debt for a chance I might be slightly better off than with my undergrad degree. And I wouldn't consider it if I had other options.

The idea of a $3,400 a month loan payment for 10 years is appalling. Very few people are going to be able to repay that amount of debt.

To me that isn't an extreme risk-averse decision. It is simply common sense.

Dude, it's called LRAP. You neglected to mention that top schools will pay off half your loans or more if you end up with a shit job.

Not sure where you get that. Northwestern's LRAP only applies to government or not- for- profit jobs. They cover the IBR payment plus some interest if you are employed as an attorney for the government or not-for-profit.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissi ... naid/lrap/

Exactly... QOD. So worst case scenario OP takes some low paying PI job out of school and all the loans get paid back by the school. Still sucks because it limits income in order to get the best repayment rates, but you completely overlooked LRAP in your doomsday analysis. Not to mention public interest work kicks the shit out of biglaw work in terms of quality of life and in terms of contribution to society.

(original edited for harshness)