how insane would it be to choose Berkeley at sticker over T6 Forum

[moneybagsphd]

Good point, but there comes a day of reckoning.

+1. Some of those people taking on extra debt to go to a school based on 'fit' will regret when their loans become payable.

Some will, some won't. Some people would rather be lower middle class in a city they love than upper middle class in a city they hate.

I just meant that most people taking on that kind of debt fall into the trap of thinking, "I'm already taking out 150k, what's another 45k?" That's a lot of money OP would be sacrificing to go to an inferior school.

[keg411]

OP, look at the totals and figure out how much the savings actually is. Unless you can live at home at Berkeley, I think you should take the T6. You will likely be able to get back to CA pretty easily from CCN and it is even more likely you will be able to get interviews with every CA firm you want since so many people will be self-selecting to NYC/DC/Chicago from those schools.

[Real Madrid]

Instead of posting on here, CALL Berkeley and tell them that you would prefer to go there, but have a scholarship at a T6.

Actually talking to them WORKS (on the phone or in perosn). People need to realize this (for waitlists, scholarships, etc)

I don't think you appreciate just how difficult it has been to get answers out of Berkeley's admissions and financial aid offices about scholarships this year. Virtually everyone I know who has contacted the office has received some variation of "wait" in response to their inquiries.

That is completely compatible with what I said. It may be difficult, but why not call? It can only improve your chances. Sure, they may not say that an NYU acceptance is a better leverage position than a UVA scholarhsip, but if he is getting nothing from Berkeley, it could help to let them know that another top 10 school has given him money


I've had great success this cycle by personally meeting with admissions/ financial aid folks in order to get off the waitlist of my choosing and receive scholarship money at 3 different schools that originally gave me no or lower offers.


There is no harm to it. Everyone who is afraid to talk to them will email them. If you step up to the plate and go beyond that, you could get better results

Um, as I already stated in the thread, I did call. In fact, I called twice - was basically told to continue waiting. And emailed multiple times - received no response at all. They really don't seem to care.

I wouldn't take it as they don't care, I think they just don't know. I don't know if you went to ASW, but after attending the financial aid "seminar," it simply seemed like they don't have as much money to give away as most of the other top schools. And they've probably just gotten tired of saying "We don't know" to people. Trust me, I'm completely on your side.

[Clearly]

T6. No flipping question. People are usually questioning whether its a good idea to move down the rankings and accept a scholly to avoid debt (and it often is), and you're worried about moving UP the rankings to avoid debt? It's three years man, you can tough out Chicago or NY for three years... NYU might be questionable for getting back to CA in Biglaw, but at a significant discount even thats a risk worth taking in my eyes.

[Real Madrid]

T6. No flipping question. People are usually questioning whether its a good idea to move down the rankings and accept a scholly to avoid debt (and it often is), and you're worried about moving UP the rankings to avoid debt? It's three years man, you can tough out Chicago or NY for three years... NYU might be questionable for getting back to CA in Biglaw, but at a significant discount even thats a risk worth taking in my eyes.

OP clearly said he could live at home, which would basically negate the scholarship advantage over 3 years. NYC is absurdly expensive to live in, and Columbia's tuition is actually more expensive than Berkeley's.

This has nothing to do with a difference in one or two spots in the USNWR rankings, and the fact that you list that as your most compelling evidence shows you really don't know what you're talking about. OP wants to work in California. Berkeley is the second "best" school in the state.

[doomed123]

T6. No flipping question. People are usually questioning whether its a good idea to move down the rankings and accept a scholly to avoid debt (and it often is), and you're worried about moving UP the rankings to avoid debt? It's three years man, you can tough out Chicago or NY for three years... NYU might be questionable for getting back to CA in Biglaw, but at a significant discount even thats a risk worth taking in my eyes.

OP clearly said he could live at home

Wait - I never said that. All I said was that I'm from California. That doesn't mean I'd be living at home while attending Berkeley.

Hell, if I could negate the price difference like that, this would be an easy choice!

[Stanford4Me]

If it is at all helpful, I have a lot of friends here at NYU from California and a number of them discussed how much more difficult it was for them to get offers from California offices. On the other hand my roommates, both of whom are from California, will be working there this summer in SF and San Diego. Maybe LA was just a real tough market.

Honestly, 45K over the long run isn't that much, especially when you factor in the COL differences.

[Real Madrid]

T6. No flipping question. People are usually questioning whether its a good idea to move down the rankings and accept a scholly to avoid debt (and it often is), and you're worried about moving UP the rankings to avoid debt? It's three years man, you can tough out Chicago or NY for three years... NYU might be questionable for getting back to CA in Biglaw, but at a significant discount even thats a risk worth taking in my eyes.

OP clearly said he could live at home

Wait - I never said that. All I said was that I'm from California. That doesn't mean I'd be living at home while attending Berkeley.

Hell, if I could negate the price difference like that, this would be an easy choice!

Ah, well my apologies. I saw grimfan's post on the first page saying you could save money living at home or something to that effect and took that to mean (since I didn't see you correct him) that that was indeed the case.

[doomed123]

Okay, I think I'm going to take the advice of most people here and head to the T6. So long, sweet California.

[shoeshine]

If you only want to work in California and/or have a strong IP background this is not a bad idea.

However, passing up CCN with money for any other reason is stupid/risky. I suppose if you absolutely hated living in NYC or Chicago that might factor in but otherwise you should strongly consider CCN.

[twenty]

You may be pissed now, and even pissed a year from now, but when you're several tens of thousands of dollars ahead + interest you no longer owe, on top of the fact that you're graduating from one of the best schools in the country, I think you'll feel differently.

You clearly have ties to CA markets. It'll be a breeze getting back.

[shoeshine]

You clearly have ties to CA markets. It'll be a breeze getting back.

HA HA. No.

[bk1]

You clearly have ties to CA markets. It'll be a breeze getting back.

Considering that CA is in shambles I wouldn't call it a "breeze."

[twenty]

Okay, okay, fair enough. :p

Seriously, it's that bad -- to the extent a Columbia grad with ties can't get back easily enough?

[bk1]

Okay, okay, fair enough. :p

Seriously, it's that bad -- to the extent a Columbia grad with ties can't get back easily enough?

Depends what you means by "easily enough." Almost 50% of CLS grads are going to end up below median. Even with ties I suspect that people around median and below won't have the easiest time getting back to CA.

[09042014]

Okay, okay, fair enough. :p

Seriously, it's that bad -- to the extent a Columbia grad with ties can't get back easily enough?

Depends what you means by "easily enough." Almost 50% of CLS grads are going to end up below median. Even with ties I suspect that people around median and below won't have the easiest time getting back to CA.

Yea but do you think that firms would take below median at Boalt but won't take below median CLS with strong CA ties? I don't.

[bk1]

Yea but do you think that firms would take below median at Boalt but won't take below median CLS with strong CA ties? I don't.

I agree.

[doomed123]

Well, I guess my screen name is seeming pretty appropriate.

[TheRedMamba]

Okay, okay, fair enough. :p

Seriously, it's that bad -- to the extent a Columbia grad with ties can't get back easily enough?

Depends what you means by "easily enough." Almost 50% of CLS grads are going to end up below median. Even with ties I suspect that people around median and below won't have the easiest time getting back to CA.

Yea but do you think that firms would take below median at Boalt but won't take below median CLS with strong CA ties? I don't.

This. Plus, I think a lot of you are underestimating the state of flux that California and, as a result, the UC system is in. I can definitely see Boalt's tuition increase while it's job prospects decrease over the next three years.

[TTTLS]

Okay, I think I'm going to take the advice of most people here and head to the T6. So long, sweet California.

noooooooooooo

[shoeshine]

This. Plus, I think a lot of you are underestimating the state of flux that California and, as a result, the UC system is in. I can definitely see Boalt's tuition increase while it's job prospects decrease over the next three years.

Thanks for your speculation. Care to back that up with any empirical data or facts? Or should we just rely on your gut to make all future decisions.

OP: Since ties aren't an issue in your case, it is all about getting firm exposure. Having 80 Cali Firms at your OCI vs. having 30 Cali firms makes a big difference. Of course you can mass mail Cali firms (and you should either way) but it will be harder to get their attention if you are at median or below.

That is why people say that you should go to Stanford or Boalt if you want Cali.

What you need to do is weigh how much being California really matters to you. Your choice boils down to:

(3yrs in Cali + Decent Big Law Shot in Cali) vs (3yrs in Chi or NYC + Better Shot at Big Law But Worse Shot at Cali Big Law)

[doomed123]

This. Plus, I think a lot of you are underestimating the state of flux that California and, as a result, the UC system is in. I can definitely see Boalt's tuition increase while it's job prospects decrease over the next three years.

Thanks for your speculation. Care to back that up with any empirical data or facts? Or should we just rely on your gut to make all future decisions.

OP: Since ties aren't an issue in your case, it is all about getting firm exposure. Having 80 Cali Firms at your OCI vs. having 30 Cali firms makes a big difference. Of course you can mass mail Cali firms (and you should either way) but it will be harder to get their attention if you are at median or below.

I'm curious about this. Would it necessarily be better to have 80 Cali firms if almost everyone (say, about 200 students) at your school is gunning for those firms? If there are 30 firms, but only a few dozen students really going after them, might that be an advantage?

[desertlaw]

This. Plus, I think a lot of you are underestimating the state of flux that California and, as a result, the UC system is in. I can definitely see Boalt's tuition increase while it's job prospects decrease over the next three years.

Thanks for your speculation. Care to back that up with any empirical data or facts? Or should we just rely on your gut to make all future decisions.

OP: Since ties aren't an issue in your case, it is all about getting firm exposure. Having 80 Cali Firms at your OCI vs. having 30 Cali firms makes a big difference. Of course you can mass mail Cali firms (and you should either way) but it will be harder to get their attention if you are at median or below.

I'm curious about this. Would it necessarily be better to have 80 Cali firms if almost everyone (say, about 200 students) at your school is gunning for those firms? If there are 30 firms, but only a few dozen students really going after them, might that be an advantage?

I felt like this was the case for me at UVa. Seemed like almost everyone I knew was going for NYC/DC, but fewer going for west coast. Seemed less competitive, at least at the screening interview level. At the callback stage, who knew if California firms saw a UVa student as more "unique/novelty" than the many Cali students they were seeing?

[shoeshine]

This. Plus, I think a lot of you are underestimating the state of flux that California and, as a result, the UC system is in. I can definitely see Boalt's tuition increase while it's job prospects decrease over the next three years.

Thanks for your speculation. Care to back that up with any empirical data or facts? Or should we just rely on your gut to make all future decisions.

OP: Since ties aren't an issue in your case, it is all about getting firm exposure. Having 80 Cali Firms at your OCI vs. having 30 Cali firms makes a big difference. Of course you can mass mail Cali firms (and you should either way) but it will be harder to get their attention if you are at median or below.

I'm curious about this. Would it necessarily be better to have 80 Cali firms if almost everyone (say, about 200 students) at your school is gunning for those firms? If there are 30 firms, but only a few dozen students really going after them, might that be an advantage?

Good question: The answer is both yes and no.

Yes, it is good if you have above median grades because it will be easy to stand out. The type of firm that comes to the a T6 OCI from Cali is going to be on the prestigious side (hence it thinking it has a good shot at attracting T6 grads). If your grades are good you will undoubtedly have a very easy time attracting the attention of those firms when there are only a couple dozen of your interviewing.

No, because if your grades are bad (especially bottom third or below) you have less of a selection of lower ranked firms in Cali to bid on. The lower ranked Cali firms and offices won't come to your OCI. You will have to mass mail them and (like I said) you will have a hard time attracting their attention with bad grades. The higher ranked Cali firms (I am thinking Munger, Irell, Wilson) are more grade snobby. They rather have the top at a lower ranked school or a Stanford kid with all P's then someone who is confirmedly at the bottom of their class.

[TheRedMamba]

This. Plus, I think a lot of you are underestimating the state of flux that California and, as a result, the UC system is in. I can definitely see Boalt's tuition increase while it's job prospects decrease over the next three years.

Thanks for your speculation. Care to back that up with any empirical data or facts? Or should we just rely on your gut to make all future decisions.

You realize that, even with empirical data and facts, any prediction about the future is speculation, right?

Anyway, Boalt's in state tuition (OP is a CA resident) has more than doubled since 2006. It went up over 10k from 2010 to 2011. Have Boalt's employment prospects suffered like all law schools' the past several years? Yes they have. Is it baseless to think such a trend might continue at a public law school in a state with an economy that is steadily getting worse? I don't think so. I said I could see it happening, not that it will.

So thanks for being a dick, but seeing as you have over 2,000 posts I suppose I should have expected a pretentious attitude behind your screen of anonymity.