Help me people! BU (84k) vs. BC (90k) vs. Columbia (unknown) Forum

[iCanHazLawSchool]

That's completely understandable. In terms of actually answering your question, I'd lean toward CLS a little bit, but the money from the other schools would be hard to pass up. I think once you find out about aid from CLS it should be an easier decision. If you get any reasonable amount of aid, I think CLS becomes the best choice easily.

Also - have you visited any or all of the schools to see if one really jumps out at you as "the right choice"? It won't help as much as the costs, but it could help a little bit.

I've been to both. CLS is fabulous, but I'd still prefer to live in Boston. If it was just based on that, I'd choose BU.

[bk1]

I don't think OP is at risk of striking out at Columbia. A diversity candidate at Columbia is as close to a sure thing for biglaw as there can possibly be. I would be much less confident about OP's chances from below median at BU/BC. If this is a binary choice between these two options, Columbia at sticker has much less risk involved than BU/BC.

That's not the binary choice though in terms of risk. OP won't necessarily stay in biglaw long enough to pay off the massive amount of debt that CLS costs which significantly increases the risk that is CLS.

I'm also not convinced that being a minority significantly affects one's biglaw chances. It is quite possible that it is true, but I've seen people who've gone through OCI feel oppositely about it so I don't think it's fair to make that definite. So in my opinion there is a real (albeit very small) risk of striking out at CLS.

[Tiago Splitter]

The amount of time an associate will last in Big Law seems to be popping up all over the place. Are exit eptions from Big Law after 3 to 4 years really so low-salaried that you can't continue to make a decent dent in your loans? What are former Big Law associates typically getting paid at their new gigs (let's assume they're not going in to PI or government but to a smaller firm or in-house)?

It varies quite a bit, but in-house jobs generally pay six figures.

http://www.roberthalflegal.com/SalaryCe ... =startover

[iCanHazLawSchool]

The amount of time an associate will last in Big Law seems to be popping up all over the place. Are exit eptions from Big Law after 3 to 4 years really so low-salaried that you can't continue to make a decent dent in your loans? What are former Big Law associates typically getting paid at their new gigs (let's assume they're not going in to PI or government but to a smaller firm or in-house)?

I know rayiner said something like 100-180k (I'm not sure where he got his data). According to Robert Half Legal, an in-house counsel with 3 years of experience barely cracks 6 figures on average (http://www.roberthalflegal.com/FreeResources). Even with raises and assuming higher than average, it's gonna be a stretch for in-house to get up to 160k. That's pre tax which means only about 100k post tax and the same as a first year biglaw associate. A 5th year biglaw associate (with lockstep raises/bonuses) makes 250k pre tax which comes out to 150k post tax.

When you're looking at paying back 300k debt at graduation, these differences become pretty huge.

Where are you getting this 300k loan number? I know I messed up earlier and made things a little unclear, but please re-read what my COA actually will be. There's no way I'm going to pay full freight for Columbia. If that were the case, I wouldn't even consider going.

[Tiago Splitter]

Where are you getting this 300k loan number? I know I messed up earlier and made things a little unclear, but please re-read what my COA actually will be. There's no way I'm going to pay full freight for Columbia. If that were the case, I wouldn't even consider going.

How much financial assistance will your family provide if you attend Columbia? Assuming no more aid, what is the total debt you'll have out of each of the three schools?

[iCanHazLawSchool]

Where are you getting this 300k loan number? I know I messed up earlier and made things a little unclear, but please re-read what my COA actually will be. There's no way I'm going to pay full freight for Columbia. If that were the case, I wouldn't even consider going.

How much financial assistance will your family provide if you attend Columbia? Assuming no more aid, what is the total debt you'll have out of each of the three schools?

I've since added that to my original post. I can't say much about CLS because they haven't returned a financial aid decision. Don't even get me started on how much they have been stalling. I don't know what their intentions are. That's why I'm so pessimistic about what they might offer.

[Tiago Splitter]

Where are you getting this 300k loan number? I know I messed up earlier and made things a little unclear, but please re-read what my COA actually will be. There's no way I'm going to pay full freight for Columbia. If that were the case, I wouldn't even consider going.

How much financial assistance will your family provide if you attend Columbia? Assuming no more aid, what is the total debt you'll have out of each of the three schools?

I've since added that to my original post. I can't say much about CLS because they haven't returned a financial aid decision. Don't even get me started on how much they have been stalling. I don't know what their intentions are. That's why I'm so pessimistic about what they might offer.

I also haven't heard from CLS, so you're not alone. But don't expect much of anything--they are not known for being generous with scholarship money.

Your OP doesn't really clarify the costs. It sounds like you'll only end up 80K in debt from BU/BC which is pretty awesome. But I assume that means you'll also have a lot of help if you go to Columbia, which narrows the difference. Sticker plus 40K in undergrad loans would indeed lead to 300K in debt after law school.

[iCanHazLawSchool]

Where are you getting this 300k loan number? I know I messed up earlier and made things a little unclear, but please re-read what my COA actually will be. There's no way I'm going to pay full freight for Columbia. If that were the case, I wouldn't even consider going.

How much financial assistance will your family provide if you attend Columbia? Assuming no more aid, what is the total debt you'll have out of each of the three schools?

I've since added that to my original post. I can't say much about CLS because they haven't returned a financial aid decision. Don't even get me started on how much they have been stalling. I don't know what their intentions are. That's why I'm so pessimistic about what they might offer.

I also haven't heard from CLS, so you're not alone. But don't expect much of anything--they are not known for being generous with scholarship money.

Your OP doesn't really clarify the costs. It sounds like you'll only end up 80K in debt from BU/BC which is pretty awesome. But I assume that means you'll also have a lot of help if you go to Columbia, which narrows the difference. Sticker plus 40K in undergrad loans would indeed lead to 300K in debt after law school.

In that sense, yes 300k would be an accurate worse case scenario. I definitely wouldn't go to CLS if that's the way things turned out. I happen to think that's insane. However, that's why I asked in my OP whether CLS was worth going to at any cost, in case anyone thought otherwise. Thanks for your advice!

I'm actually more interested in hearing about why CLS is so stingy. Do they not meet "need"? I qualify for a Perkins loan which means I'm pretty high need. Would they just disregard that and offer me nothing?

[Tiago Splitter]

[
In that sense, yes 300k would be an accurate worse case scenario. I definitely wouldn't go to CLS if that's the way things turned out. I happen to think that's insane. However, that's why I asked in my OP whether CLS was worth going to at any cost, in case anyone thought otherwise. Thanks for your advice!

I'm actually more interested in hearing about why CLS is so stingy. Do they not meet "need"? I qualify for a Perkins loan which means I'm pretty high need. Would they just disregard that and offer me nothing?

Yeah if it's 80K vs. upwards of 300K I'd probably take your favorite of BC/BU.

As for CLS, they say that unless you get a Hamilton (full-ride) or Butler (half-ride) all aid is need-based. In reality this doesn't appear to be totally true, but most "need-based" awards tend to be fairly small (like 10-15K per year). Even if you manage to snag 15K a year you're looking at ridiculously high debt coming out of Columbia.

[iCanHazLawSchool]

[
In that sense, yes 300k would be an accurate worse case scenario. I definitely wouldn't go to CLS if that's the way things turned out. I happen to think that's insane. However, that's why I asked in my OP whether CLS was worth going to at any cost, in case anyone thought otherwise. Thanks for your advice!

I'm actually more interested in hearing about why CLS is so stingy. Do they not meet "need"? I qualify for a Perkins loan which means I'm pretty high need. Would they just disregard that and offer me nothing?

Yeah if it's 80K vs. upwards of 300K I'd probably take your favorite of BC/BU.

As for CLS, they say that unless you get a Hamilton (full-ride) or Butler (half-ride) all aid is need-based. In reality this doesn't appear to be totally true, but most "need-based" awards tend to be fairly small (like 10-15K per year). Even if you manage to snag 15K a year you're looking at ridiculously high debt coming out of Columbia.

I agree, 15k wouldn't cut it. I guess I know what my decision is if that's the case! Thanks!

[bk1]

What Tiago said.

[Nelson]

[
In that sense, yes 300k would be an accurate worse case scenario. I definitely wouldn't go to CLS if that's the way things turned out. I happen to think that's insane. However, that's why I asked in my OP whether CLS was worth going to at any cost, in case anyone thought otherwise. Thanks for your advice!

I'm actually more interested in hearing about why CLS is so stingy. Do they not meet "need"? I qualify for a Perkins loan which means I'm pretty high need. Would they just disregard that and offer me nothing?

Yeah if it's 80K vs. upwards of 300K I'd probably take your favorite of BC/BU.

As for CLS, they say that unless you get a Hamilton (full-ride) or Butler (half-ride) all aid is need-based. In reality this doesn't appear to be totally true, but most "need-based" awards tend to be fairly small (like 10-15K per year). Even if you manage to snag 15K a year you're looking at ridiculously high debt coming out of Columbia.

It's not 80k out of the Boston schools unless OP has more money for COA at those schools. COA at those schools is about 180k so with his scholarship and undergrad debt you're looking at around 140k at grad at those schools vs. 250 or so at CLS (still not sure where the 300 is coming from unless bk is counting interest).

ETA: talking principle above.

[Tiago Splitter]

It's not 80k out of the Boston schools unless OP has more money for COA at those schools. COA at those schools is about 180k so with his scholarship and undergrad debt you're looking at around 140k at grad at those schools vs. 250 or so at CLS (still not sure where the 300 is coming from unless bk is counting interest).

Yeah we're including interest.

I guess I'm confused as to how she can get through BC/BU with only 80K in debt including 40K from undergrad with those schollies. That to me says she is getting substantial outside help, and I'm trying to figure out why that help wouldn't follow her to Columbia.

I mean, we can't be discussing 250-300K in debt from Columbia while also talking about 80K debt from BC with only a 90K scholly.

[Blindmelon]

Don't know if this was asked already, but do you have any in between options? Like UVA/Penn w/$?

[elm84dr]

I think both cases are risky but I'm basically 50/50 on either.

CLS - You aren't going to be investing anything since you will need to pay down a ton of loans while in biglaw. I'd also say you need to be okay with working in NYC if that's what it takes to get biglaw. But the real kicker is it's going to take you 5+ years to pay off your CLS debt and only 20% of biglaw associates make it that far. So you have a very real chance of not lasting long enough to pay down your debt.

BU/BC - Much lower chance at biglaw, but you're not going to be fucked by debt. Even if you end up at a small firm making 40-50k/year you will be able to be debt free in 10 years.

There are a TON of firms in the Boston/Prov/CT market that are not considered "big law" and pay 100K-145K a year, just FYI. It is not Biglaw or 45K a year as some seem to put it.

My advice: As a URM, to be honest, you should be getting $105K from BU (I go here). IF you can negotiate an upswing, even with a non-peer school (Northeastern/Suffolk) DO IT. Between BC/BU, pick BU (I went to BC undergrad, loved it, but BU's proximity to the city, access to everything, and the student life is very active).

Now Columbia at sticker...I would not do. I would only to HYS at sticker, and I know it's an arbitrary distinction, but still. See if BU will increase to 90-105K. Then make a decision between BU and Columbia.

[bk1]

There are a TON of firms in the Boston/Prov/CT market that are not considered "big law" and pay 100K-145K a year, just FYI. It is not Biglaw or 45K a year as some seem to put it.

I would include any firm that pays 6 figures as biglaw. But there indeed is a gap between firms that pay 6 figures and ones that pay 30-60k.

[elm84dr]

There are a TON of firms in the Boston/Prov/CT market that are not considered "big law" and pay 100K-145K a year, just FYI. It is not Biglaw or 45K a year as some seem to put it.

I would include any firm that pays 6 figures as biglaw. But there indeed is a gap between firms that pay 6 figures and ones that pay 30-60k.

[Tiago Splitter]

There are a TON of firms in the Boston/Prov/CT market that are not considered "big law" and pay 100K-145K a year, just FYI. It is not Biglaw or 45K a year as some seem to put it.

I would include any firm that pays 6 figures as biglaw. But there indeed is a gap between firms that pay 6 figures and ones that pay 30-60k.

People mention BU's big law placement as 18% because thats how many people went to the NLJ 250. The NLJ 250, however does not include Choate, Skadden Boston, Foley Lardner Boston etc. in this figure, which leaves out firms in Boston/Prov./CT that a lot of BU grads go to and make over 100K.

Huh? Nlj 250 is the 250 biggest firms, not offices. I know nlj had some underreporting issues but unless your cso specifically told you these firms did not report I'm calling bs.

[Blindmelon]

There are a TON of firms in the Boston/Prov/CT market that are not considered "big law" and pay 100K-145K a year, just FYI. It is not Biglaw or 45K a year as some seem to put it.

I would include any firm that pays 6 figures as biglaw. But there indeed is a gap between firms that pay 6 figures and ones that pay 30-60k.

People mention BU's big law placement as 18% because thats how many people went to the NLJ 250. The NLJ 250, however does not include Choate, Skadden Boston, Foley Lardner Boston etc. in this figure, which leaves out firms in Boston/Prov./CT that a lot of BU grads go to and make over 100K.

Er... Choate isn't NLJ250, but F&L and Skadden definitely are... I'm pro-BU and all, but you take it a bit to the extreme.

[elm84dr]

There are a TON of firms in the Boston/Prov/CT market that are not considered "big law" and pay 100K-145K a year, just FYI. It is not Biglaw or 45K a year as some seem to put it.

I would include any firm that pays 6 figures as biglaw. But there indeed is a gap between firms that pay 6 figures and ones that pay 30-60k.

People mention BU's big law placement as 18% because thats how many people went to the NLJ 250. The NLJ 250, however does not include Choate, Skadden Boston, Foley Lardner Boston etc. in this figure, which leaves out firms in Boston/Prov./CT that a lot of BU grads go to and make over 100K.

Er... Choate isn't NLJ250, but F&L and Skadden definitely are... I'm pro-BU and all, but you take it a bit to the extreme.

Under the impression (perhaps false) that in NLJ 250 they are only including students that go to that office, so FL in Milwaukee, but not the other locations, etc. But, besides that, there are a lot of firms in New England that pay 100K+ that are not in the NLJ 250:

Palmer & Dodge LLP, Boston

Cholate Hall & Stewart, Boston

Nutter, McClennen & Fish LLP, Boston

Morrison, Mahoney LLP, Boston

Kirkpatrick& Lockhart Nicholson Graham LLP, Boston

McDermott, Will & Emery LLP, Boston

Hinckley, Allen & Snyder LLP, Boston

Burns & Levinson LLP, Boston

Rubin & Rudman LLP, Boston

Riemer & Braunstein LLP, Boston

Bowditch & Dewey LLP, Boston

[bk1]

Let's stop talking about individual firms and just agree that BU's 2010 biglaw percentage was around 40%.