Stanford $ vs. Harvard for East Coast and International Work Forum

[dingbat]

That said, as someone who has lived in Europe, Harvard is in a completely different league than any other US school, and generally recognized as the best university in the world. After Harvard, most educated Europeans have a strong respect for the Ivy League, but could probably only name a few of the other schools within it (Yale, thanks in part to the Clintons and Bushs, and perhaps schools like Princeton and Columbia). Schools like Chicago and Stanford aren't that well known, except in specialized circles (e.g., academia).

Credited. in Europe, it's Harvard -> Yale, Princeton, Columbia -> any other school they might have actually heard of (typically UCLA, NYU, and one or two other good schools such as Vanderbilt, Georgetown or Dartmouth) -> any other school

I've lived and worked in Europe and support this, though my own non-scientific experience of lay prestige of US universities in Europe is as follows: Harvard >> Yale, Princeton, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford (in no particular order)> Columbia (fewer people have heard of it than you think), Georgetown, UCLA, Chicago > maybe NYU

lol to Dartmouth and Vandy

But as some other posters have said, lay prestige only matters if you're targeting jobs outside the legal field or could be interviewed / evaluated by people that are not US lawyers or recruiters (in international PI in particular this could matter -- I work in this field right now and have witnessed the importance of lay prestige for recruiting and career advancement even in the US). If you're set on private practice and finding an international office somewhere, I have to believe those recruiting American lawyers will be very familiar with the quality of US schools.

Also, for more approximate and highly unscientific assessments, see:
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2011.html

http://www.shanghairanking.com/FieldSOC2011.html

Thanks, this sounds reasonable. I should clarify that if I work in Europe, it will likely be for an American or London-based firm, doing international arbitration work. Harvard is definitely the most well-represented school among those listed in the bios of partners and associates doing this kind of work. Stanford grads are virtually non-existent. How significant is this?

You will hope to be recruited out of OCI. Look at Harvard and Stanford's 2011 OCI firm list and see which provided more options. (my bet is Harvard, but I haven't checked)

[dingbat]

That said, as someone who has lived in Europe, Harvard is in a completely different league than any other US school, and generally recognized as the best university in the world. After Harvard, most educated Europeans have a strong respect for the Ivy League, but could probably only name a few of the other schools within it (Yale, thanks in part to the Clintons and Bushs, and perhaps schools like Princeton and Columbia). Schools like Chicago and Stanford aren't that well known, except in specialized circles (e.g., academia).

Credited. in Europe, it's Harvard -> Yale, Princeton, Columbia -> any other school they might have actually heard of (typically UCLA, NYU, and one or two other good schools such as Vanderbilt, Georgetown or Dartmouth) -> any other school

I've lived and worked in Europe and support this, though my own non-scientific experience of lay prestige of US universities in Europe is as follows: Harvard >> Yale, Princeton, MIT, Berkeley, Stanford (in no particular order)> Columbia (fewer people have heard of it than you think), Georgetown, UCLA, Chicago > maybe NYU

lol to Dartmouth and Vandy

But as some other posters have said, lay prestige only matters if you're targeting jobs outside the legal field or could be interviewed / evaluated by people that are not US lawyers or recruiters (in international PI in particular this could matter -- I work in this field right now and have witnessed the importance of lay prestige for recruiting and career advancement even in the US). If you're set on private practice and finding an international office somewhere, I have to believe those recruiting American lawyers will be very familiar with the quality of US schools.

Also, for more approximate and highly unscientific assessments, see:
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2011.html

http://www.shanghairanking.com/FieldSOC2011.html

I'm regularly surprised when someone has heard of a good school that's not HYP, but invariably they'll have heard of one other. I've also heard Georgetown and Penn, but, like Vandy, these are rare. That's all I meant.
What comes in that category just depends on which schools that particular person has heard of

As for Dartmouth/Princeton being on the list, due to the different higher education system there, they won't understand these schools not teaching law

[TaipeiMort]

I don't think you'll get international arbitration, as very, very few people get it and most of them are in areas where there is actually a need like Dubai or Hong Kong, and most of these are partners who have worked for many years in the field and are natively bilingual. But, going to Harvard may suffice too. Alternatively, if you want international arbitration in Europe, get reborn in a European country, graduate top of your class at your national law school, go to a great firm, get an LLM at HYSCC and work for several years as a senior associate in your national firm before transferring to a biglaw satellite office.

If you want to feel cultured/cool and go to Europe, do anything to look like you have real capital markets background and nail your interview with a Magic Circle firm. Harvard may help you get an interview with more Magic Circle firms (I think only Freshfields and Allen Overy do Stanford Yale and Chicago, but clifford chance, S&M, and Linklatters may go to Harvard and Columbia because they have more bodies), but you will be competing against people who have lived in London for years and speak 3+ Euro languages. Another cute inside trick is to work for several years in M&A at a magic circle shop in NYC and then lateral after besting the rest of your starting class.

If you want to have a better chance at a job and go to a school with better educational quality and go to the only T5 law school that isn't near a ghetto, go to Stanford. If you want to look cool to others like your family and friends at the small risk of graduating jobless, go to Harvard.

[SehMeSerrious]

That said, as someone who has lived in Europe, Harvard is in a completely different league than any other US school, and generally recognized as the best university in the world. After Harvard, most educated Europeans have a strong respect for the Ivy League, but could probably only name a few of the other schools within it (Yale, thanks in part to the Clintons and Bushs, and perhaps schools like Princeton and Columbia). Schools like Chicago and Stanford aren't that well known, except in specialized circles (e.g., academia).

Credited. in Europe, it's Harvard -> Yale, Princeton, Columbia -> any other school they might have actually heard of (typically UCLA, NYU, and one or two other good schools such as Vanderbilt, Georgetown or Dartmouth) -> any other school

Very credited. This is generally how it goes.

Although, I think Georgetown would be a step above Vanderbilt and Dartmouth (I guess it would depend on the field) but Georgetown is known for the all the politicians (ex. Clinton's undergrad) that went there and as a DC/government feeder school.

I was surprised, though, that UCLA is so widely known. It has a broader international reputation than Berkeley and among younger people, probably Stanford, which is just crazy. (This is speaking in general terms, not just for JDs.)

[juliachild-ish]

Why do you think you need a car? Many law students here don't have cars and get by perfectly fine with shuttles or on-campus rentals. The grad housing here is excellent (literally a two minute walk from the school) and has its own market. I have a car and probably drive for groceries once a week (<10 minute drive). For Bar Review, people carpool, taxi or take the free campus shuttle if they are going downtown. It's not that big of a deal.

I think I can live without a car for 1L year pretty easily. But I don't want to spend my time during 2L and 3L sitting around on campus and only leaving to do activities like Bar Review or something that my friends are doing en masse. What if I just want to make an impromptu trip to a supermarket or grab a meal off-campus? When I visited SLS, I was disappointed to find that the Marguerite runs very infrequently (because it's broken into a bunch of different routes) and that the Munger market is pretty tiny and overpriced. Also, I don't want to rely on friends with cars for everything and I don't want to have to consider whether or not every trip I take to the supermarket is worth the rental price of a zip car.

You don't know how to ride a bike? If you don't, Stanford offers bike riding lessons, and I believe you can rent bikes as well (plus the cost of buying a bike is obviously very affordable). I know plenty of people (including several professors) who don't own a car but just bike everywhere, and they have absolutely no trouble getting anywhere they want to go. It's sunny and nice virtually all the time (hardly ever rains), so it's basically always biking weather. Trader Joe's is like a five-minute bike ride away, as are shops, restaurants, bars...

I just feel like the car issue is a pretty silly deciding factor. If you really hate driving, you can get a bike. If you're willing to drive, you can get a cheap decent car with basic insurance (if your car isn't worth much, your insurance will be very cheap--I say from experience, from my first car in high school when I, too, was a new driver). The LLMs often sell their cars at the end of the school year for really cheap, just to off-load them because they're leaving the country--so you can get a perfectly serviceable car for only a few thousand after your 1L year.

As for the international thing...as others have said, that's a sort of unlikely goal. Harvard may help you, but it may not be an attainable thing anyway. I know I'm biased (Stanford student), but I think the Stanford name will open basically just as many doors. We could try and split hairs about lay prestige abroad, but...I personally don't think the opportunities are really any different for the average Harvard student vs. the average Stanford student. And since almost everyone's interests change during law school, I don't know if you should necessarily make the decision based on what you think you want to do, since it sounds like you're kind of fuzzy on that anyway.

I often have trouble dealing with stress, so I am wary of doing worse at Harvard than at Stanford and having a lower chance of getting a job at a firm I prefer.

This is what I think you should focus on. Harvard students will try to deny it, but I have quite a few friends that go there, and I think it's a simple fact that, as a whole, Stanford is much more laid back. We just are. Like you mentioned, the class is so small that even people at the "bottom" (which doesn't really exist, because unlike Harvard, RKs [our low passes] are virtually unheard of) of the class are still basically guaranteed a job. You will be able to get a good firm job no matter what. And I know that doesn't interest you longterm, but that's the case for many people here too--a lot of people here seem interested in in-house, business (tons of joint JD/MBAs), local government...

The small size of Stanford makes for a very close-knit, family-like community. And generally people don't worry or care about grades at all. That won't necessarily be true at Harvard. If you don't handle stressful, competitive environments well, then that gives the edge to Stanford.

Stanford is more insurance (in case you end up at the bottom of the class), cheaper, a better environment, and you get to try out living on a different coast. So pick Stanford!

[bk1]

go to the only T5 law school that isn't near a ghetto, go to Stanford.

Woah, woah, woah... don't be so hasty.

[TaipeiMort]

go to the only T5 law school that isn't near a ghetto, go to Stanford.

Woah, woah, woah... don't be so hasty.

True, but Stanford is practically as close to that as Santa Cruz and Monterey.

[greta]

Stanford is more insurance (in case you end up at the bottom of the class), cheaper, a better environment, and you get to try out living on a different coast. So pick Stanford!

Damn, you're good at this.

[094320]

..

[1988AndX]

go to the only T5 law school that isn't near a ghetto, go to Stanford.

Woah, woah, woah... don't be so hasty.

True, but Stanford is practically as close to that as Santa Cruz and Monterey.

What "ghetto", exactly, is Cambridge encumbered by?

I think what TaipeiMort meant was that Harvard Law is too close to Aggasiz, which is one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Cambridge/Boston.

[juliachild-ish]

Stanford is more insurance (in case you end up at the bottom of the class), cheaper, a better environment, and you get to try out living on a different coast. So pick Stanford!

Damn, you're good at this.

Yes, SUCCESS!! Seriously though, I went into Stanford actually feeling kind of ambivalent about it (got in off the waitlist in July, and it was a hard decision), but I haven't regretted it a single day--I can't imagine being happy going to law school anywhere else. And I haven't met anyone here that feels at all differently. Some things about law school will always suck, but really, Stanford makes the experience as enjoyable and non-painful as possible.

[TaipeiMort]

go to the only T5 law school that isn't near a ghetto, go to Stanford.

Woah, woah, woah... don't be so hasty.

True, but Stanford is practically as close to that as Santa Cruz and Monterey.

What "ghetto", exactly, is Cambridge encumbered by?

Well, I actually was talking about Harlem, Inglewood, and half of New Haven.

[094320]

..

[soj]

Lol, Taipei, we get it, you're pro-Chicago and anti-Harvard, but in terms of picking schools based on the relative gentrification of the surrounding area, pretty sure Harvard is much closer to Stanford than it is to Chicago, Columbia, or Yale.

I think his point is that the DILUTED FACULTY is what makes Harvard ghetto.

[dingbat]

That said, as someone who has lived in Europe, Harvard is in a completely different league than any other US school, and generally recognized as the best university in the world. After Harvard, most educated Europeans have a strong respect for the Ivy League, but could probably only name a few of the other schools within it (Yale, thanks in part to the Clintons and Bushs, and perhaps schools like Princeton and Columbia). Schools like Chicago and Stanford aren't that well known, except in specialized circles (e.g., academia).

Credited. in Europe, it's Harvard -> Yale, Princeton, Columbia -> any other school they might have actually heard of (typically UCLA, NYU, and one or two other good schools such as Vanderbilt, Georgetown or Dartmouth) -> any other school

Very credited. This is generally how it goes.

Although, I think Georgetown would be a step above Vanderbilt and Dartmouth (I guess it would depend on the field) but Georgetown is known for the all the politicians (ex. Clinton's undergrad) that went there and as a DC/government feeder school.

I was surprised, though, that UCLA is so widely known. It has a broader international reputation than Berkeley and among younger people, probably Stanford, which is just crazy. (This is speaking in general terms, not just for JDs.)

Most Europeans will only see this in general terms, not understanding the difference between UG and LS reputations.
I almost mentioned Georgetown and UCLA, but it really is dependent on the individual Everyone has heard of Harvard, Princeton and Yale, plus usually a few others (fill in the blank)
Although sometimes that "few others" is kind of surprising ("Florida" has been mentioned. I've also once heard of Rutgers being a good school. Almost never hear about Stanford, though - it just has no recognition in Europe)

[Rotor]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

[dingbat]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

According to this, California Institute of Technology has the best ranking. While that may be true, I bet not even 0.1% of Europeans (including hiring managers) have ever heard of this school. I don't think that many people in this country have even heard of it.
But (almost) everyone has heard of Harvard

[Nelson]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

According to this, California Institute of Technology has the best ranking. While that may be true, I bet not even 0.1% of Europeans (including hiring managers) have ever heard of this school. I don't think that many people in this country have even heard of it.
But (almost) everyone has heard of Harvard

It's Caltech. Yes, many, many Europeans have heard of it. The amount of anecdotal nonsense going on in this thread is absurd and off topic.

OP there are reasons you could pick Harvard over Stanford but "international name recognition" is probably the dumbest you could possibly choose.

[dingbat]

Damn, why didn't they just say Caltech?
(although as far as name recognition goes, it's stil not as high up there)
Anyway, I'll shut up now

[TaipeiMort]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

According to this, California Institute of Technology has the best ranking. While that may be true, I bet not even 0.1% of Europeans (including hiring managers) have ever heard of this school. I don't think that many people in this country have even heard of it.
But (almost) everyone has heard of Harvard

It's Caltech. Yes, many, many Europeans have heard of it. The amount of anecdotal nonsense going on in this thread is absurd and off topic.

OP there are reasons you could pick Harvard over Stanford but "international name recognition" is probably the dumbest you could possibly choose.

My only point is that the OP wont be doing international arbitration anyway, so it wont matter, and Harvard will offer him more Magic Circle firms to try to practice any cross-border deals work, but also more and competition-- the OP is probably not getting Magic Circle anyway, and Stanford offers him a better chance at getting a biglaw job and less competition for any job (except for maybe Keker, Quinn, or another very selective CA shop).

[1988AndX]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

According to this, California Institute of Technology has the best ranking. While that may be true, I bet not even 0.1% of Europeans (including hiring managers) have ever heard of this school. I don't think that many people in this country have even heard of it.
But (almost) everyone has heard of Harvard

Refer to the reputation ranking of THE (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... kings.html), which is a British publication. It goes:
Harvard
MIT
Cambridge
Stanford
Berkeley
Oxford
Princeton
Tokyo
UCLA
Yale
...

[greta]

My only point is that the OP wont be doing international arbitration anyway, so it wont matter, and Harvard will offer him more Magic Circle firms to try to practice any cross-border deals work, but also more and competition-- the OP is probably not getting Magic Circle anyway, and Stanford offers him a better chance at getting a biglaw job and less competition for any job (except for maybe Keker, Quinn, or another very selective CA shop).

I don't understand why this is so impossible to work in this field. I would have gone to either Harvard or Stanford Law School, I have pretty advanced proficiency in two European languages (although neither is French), and I have worked and studied in Europe. I don't say this to imply that I think that I'm entitled to get anything, but is it really almost impossible to get a spot in the international arbitration practice of a place like Freshfields or Cleary or White & Case in London or in NYC with the potential to transfer?

[izy223]

stanford

[AntipodeanPhil]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

This is a reputational ranking amongst academics only. Of course European academics have heard of Stanford. Most academics are well aware of relative rankings in their fields. Caltech and MIT are so high because they have amazing faculty and facilities, and a large proportion of academics are in science or science related fields.

There is no ranking of reputations across entire populations, but if there was, I am sure it would be quite different. Of course, it would probably also be irrelevant for our purposes.

[Bronck]

LOL at the thought of Stanford not having any reputation in Europe. Here is a link to the reputational rankings by an actual European publication instead of TLS anecdote. It is not LS specific, but that seems to be the general thrust of this thread.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... p-400.html

This is a reputational ranking amongst academics only. Of course European academics have heard of Stanford. Most academics are well aware of relative rankings in their fields. Caltech and MIT are so high because they have amazing faculty and facilities, and a large proportion of academics are in science or science related fields.

There is no ranking of reputations across entire populations, but if there was, I am sure it would be quite different. Of course, it would probably also be irrelevant for our purposes.

Not probably. It would be irrelevant.