Duke vs. UVA vs. Chicago Forum

[RVP11]

Once again, I'm not going to say that there aren't some pretty awesome reasons to go to Duke, and maybe a couple for UVA too, but Chicago is national in placement
and the other two are not. If you attend UVA or Duke expecting to get a job outside of NYC or the South, or maybe DC if you kill it, then you will be disappointed. If you go to Duke or UVA expecting to get a big law job from the median, then you will be disappointed.

I'm another UVA student working on the west coast. There are plenty of us. Your ties, not your school, is what largely determines your geographical reach.

Also there are literally dozens (hundreds?) of UVA students around median who have big firm jobs lined up. It's more the norm than anything else. Class of 2011 got it bad. But the classes of 2012 and 2013 did pretty well. I wasn't that far above median and had almost 20 callbacks, most of them on the west coast.

[TaipeiMort]

Damn, I guess all those UVA and Duke grads that don't work in NYC, the South, and maybe DC are all mirages, or lying about their resumes.

That isn't my point. People on law review or having great grades or great ties from UVA and Duke will have a portable degree. My point is that regular rising 2L at Duke or UVA will have a different set of likely options. If I was OP and wanted South or NYC or had strong ties to a firm or mid market, or felt that the better standard of life at Duke or UVA was worth rolling the dice then I would stop considering Chicago.

[RVP11]

Damn, I guess all those UVA and Duke grads that don't work in NYC, the South, and maybe DC are all mirages, or lying about their resumes.

That isn't my point. People on law review or having great grades or great ties from UVA and Duke will have a portable degree. My point is that regular rising 2L at Duke or UVA will have a different set of likely options. If I was OP and wanted South or NYC or had strong ties to a firm or mid market, or felt that the better standard of life at Duke or UVA was worth rolling the dice then I would stop considering Chicago.

I think you lose all credibility when you claim there's a gap in "educational quality" between #5 Chicago and #7 Virginia/#11 Duke.

[TaipeiMort]

Once again, I'm not going to say that there aren't some pretty awesome reasons to go to Duke, and maybe a couple for UVA too, but Chicago is national in placement
and the other two are not. If you attend UVA or Duke expecting to get a job outside of NYC or the South, or maybe DC if you kill it, then you will be disappointed. If you go to Duke or UVA expecting to get a big law job from the median, then you will be disappointed.

I'm another UVA student working on the west coast. There are plenty of us. Your ties, not your school, is what largely determines your geographical reach.

Also there are literally dozens (hundreds?) of UVA students around median who have big firm jobs lined up. It's more the norm than anything else. Class of 2011 got it bad. But the classes of 2012 and 2013 did pretty well. I wasn't that far above median and had almost 20 callbacks, most of them on the west coast.

You make a great point. Good ties to a market make getting into it a lot easier. I also agree with you educational quality point. I was referring to my reasons for attending Chicago-- I like the brand of theory they push and feel it makes the school worth it to me. Educational quality is pretty subjective though and can't really be used to compare closely ranked schools. One person gets giddy about a school's law and econ focus where another will be happy about the number of professional adjunct faculty teaching substantive courses.

My point is that a major difference is that Chicago will get you into markets you don't have ties to (I had no ties to most of the markets I had callbacks in) and that people much farther down the curve have a good chance at a job.

I'm not saying that Chicago is a better option than UVA and Duke. Now that I am not worrying about finding a job I envy the students at Duke and UVA who pay $600 a month on housing and get college sports and a beautiful town to live in.

[Emma.]

Damn, I guess all those UVA and Duke grads that don't work in NYC, the South, and maybe DC are all mirages, or lying about their resumes.

That isn't my point. People on law review or having great grades or great ties from UVA and Duke will have a portable degree. My point is that regular rising 2L at Duke or UVA will have a different set of likely options. If I was OP and wanted South or NYC or had strong ties to a firm or mid market, or felt that the better standard of life at Duke or UVA was worth rolling the dice then I would stop considering Chicago.

I think you lose all credibility when you claim there's a gap in "educational quality" between #5 Chicago and #7 Virginia/#11 Duke.

what is this I don't even

[RVP11]

Damn, I guess all those UVA and Duke grads that don't work in NYC, the South, and maybe DC are all mirages, or lying about their resumes.

That isn't my point. People on law review or having great grades or great ties from UVA and Duke will have a portable degree. My point is that regular rising 2L at Duke or UVA will have a different set of likely options. If I was OP and wanted South or NYC or had strong ties to a firm or mid market, or felt that the better standard of life at Duke or UVA was worth rolling the dice then I would stop considering Chicago.

I think you lose all credibility when you claim there's a gap in "educational quality" between #5 Chicago and #7 Virginia/#11 Duke.

what is this I don't even

see:

We sacrifice nice weather and cheap COL for job security and educational quality and will be straightforward with you about this if you ask.

[rayiner]

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Chicago doesn't have better placement than Duke or Virginia. Chicago buys you a buffer relative to those schools. There are concrete numbers on this: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata

2L SA placement at U Chicago for C/O 2011 was ~70%. Duke and Virginia don't give 2L SA data, but at Northwestern, the number was ~60% according to internal sources. That 10% buffer has real meaning for people in the middle half of the class. It's the difference between most people in the middle half getting a firm job and nearly everyone in the middle half getting a firm job. If you don't think that buffer is worth $30k, then you're valuing the difference in lifetime income between getting big law and not getting big law at less than $300k. I don't think that's a reasonable valuation.

That said, I think Taipei may be overstating his case a little bit. People below median at U Chicago aren't waltzing into firm jobs in markets they don't have ties to. The 2L SA placement at U Chicago went down from 90% for C/O 2010 to 70% for C/O 2011, and only ticked up moderately to ~75% for C/O 2012. There are clearly a bunch of people who want firm jobs bit didn't get them.

[Emma.]

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Chicago doesn't have better placement than Duke or Virginia. Chicago buys you a buffer relative to those schools. There are concrete numbers on this: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata
...
That said, I think Taipei may be overstating his case a little bit. People below median at U Chicago aren't waltzing into firm jobs in markets they don't have ties to. The 2L SA placement at U Chicago went down from 90% for C/O 2010 to 70% for C/O 2011, and only ticked up moderately to ~75% for C/O 2012. There are clearly a bunch of people who want firm jobs bit didn't get them.

I'd certainly agree that there are people that didn't get the jobs they wanted, and like any school the lower your GPA the harder you have to hustle. However, I think our class (c/o 2013) did exceptionally well at OCI, which might go some way to explaining where Taipei's statement is coming from.

[rayiner]

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Chicago doesn't have better placement than Duke or Virginia. Chicago buys you a buffer relative to those schools. There are concrete numbers on this: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata
...
That said, I think Taipei may be overstating his case a little bit. People below median at U Chicago aren't waltzing into firm jobs in markets they don't have ties to. The 2L SA placement at U Chicago went down from 90% for C/O 2010 to 70% for C/O 2011, and only ticked up moderately to ~75% for C/O 2012. There are clearly a bunch of people who want firm jobs bit didn't get them.

I'd certainly agree that there are people that didn't get the jobs they wanted, and like any school the lower your GPA the harder you have to hustle. However, I think our class (c/o 2013) did exceptionally well at OCI, which might go some way to explaining where Taipei's statement is coming from.

We don't have data from anywhere about C/O 2013,[1] so it's hard to comment. As a 3L I'll say that it's easy to overestimate how people did, because a lot of folks just don't talk about trouble with their job search. I know that at least nationwide, C/O 2013 was a moderate uptick from C/O 2012, and as U Chicago's own data shows, C/O 2012 was only a moderate uptick from C/O 2011.

[1] DVZ used to leak information about how the current 2L's were doing a couple of months after OCI, but the interim dean did not do that this year.

[NinerFan]

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Chicago doesn't have better placement than Duke or Virginia. Chicago buys you a buffer relative to those schools. There are concrete numbers on this: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata

2L SA placement at U Chicago for C/O 2011 was ~70%. Duke and Virginia don't give 2L SA data, but at Northwestern, the number was ~60% according to internal sources. That 10% buffer has real meaning for people in the middle half of the class. It's the difference between most people in the middle half getting a firm job and nearly everyone in the middle half getting a firm job. If you don't think that buffer is worth $30k, then you're valuing the difference in lifetime income between getting big law and not getting big law at less than $300k. I don't think that's a reasonable valuation.

That said, I think Taipei may be overstating his case a little bit. People below median at U Chicago aren't waltzing into firm jobs in markets they don't have ties to. The 2L SA placement at U Chicago went down from 90% for C/O 2010 to 70% for C/O 2011, and only ticked up moderately to ~75% for C/O 2012. There are clearly a bunch of people who want firm jobs bit didn't get them.

I don't think anyone's arguing that UVA/Duke places into biglaw better than Chicago, it was more about his geographic placement claims.

[TaipeiMort]

I think it's disingenuous to claim that Chicago doesn't have better placement than Duke or Virginia. Chicago buys you a buffer relative to those schools. There are concrete numbers on this: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata

2L SA placement at U Chicago for C/O 2011 was ~70%. Duke and Virginia don't give 2L SA data, but at Northwestern, the number was ~60% according to internal sources. That 10% buffer has real meaning for people in the middle half of the class. It's the difference between most people in the middle half getting a firm job and nearly everyone in the middle half getting a firm job. If you don't think that buffer is worth $30k, then you're valuing the difference in lifetime income between getting big law and not getting big law at less than $300k. I don't think that's a reasonable valuation.

That said, I think Taipei may be overstating his case a little bit. People below median at U Chicago aren't waltzing into firm jobs in markets they don't have ties to. The 2L SA placement at U Chicago went down from 90% for C/O 2010 to 70% for C/O 2011, and only ticked up moderately to ~75% for C/O 2012. There are clearly a bunch of people who want firm jobs bit didn't get them.

I don't think anyone's arguing that UVA/Duke places into biglaw better than Chicago, it was more about his geographic placement claims.

My geographic point was that at UVA or Duke you aren't going to Seattle, SoCal, Denver, Florida, Bay Area, Texas, Ohio, Arizona, Boston, etc. without great ties (eg. grew up in the city and have great reason to return) or law review grades. Therefore, one shouldn't expect to walk out of UVA or Duke into these markets. At Chicago you can get into most any market with median grades. I experienced this-- I got into tough markets without any ties and good, not great grades and mediocre interviewing ability. I know more people near the top of the class than near the bottom of the class without jobs. I don't know why this happened this way, but I do know it means that bottom-of-the-class people can get jobs, and people can get jobs most anywhere from Chicago.

Looking at our "who worked where list" from last year, I would suggest that 80% of people got SA jobs according to the data, and the class is geographically dispersed.

[EdgarWinter]

.

[TaipeiMort]

Do the people at the top of the class who don't have jobs lack elementary social skills? Any reason to suppose that they might be jobless other than bad luck?

I can't really say. Any generalizations I would attempt to draw would be on the basis of anecdotal evidence. I personally don't think it is a social skill thing at all. I think it is more market choice and bidding strategy. My personal observation is that people who were sold on Chicago ended up struggling because Chicago hiring had dropped off significantly. Also, it may be that people at the bottom spread a wider net because they were fearful about not getting a job which ended up helping them.

I saw this with myself, I bid a ton of extra firms because I wanted more options at the end of the day. All of the offers I ended up considering were from firms I originally wasn't assigned and I had to fight to get interview time with. Some of the safety firms I originally applied to rejected me flat out because I didn't go into the interview with my A game on, and some of the great firms I thought wouldn't want me did because I went in hungry and focused.

[fltanglab]

I'm going to comment briefly about the students at ASW. Having been an orientation leader/tour guide type before, the bragging is probably a product of genuine excitement for being at the school rather than a reflection of their personalities. Like someone said before, they're trying to sell the school and whether it's professional or not to do so, sometimes words just gush out in one's excitement. I would even go so far as to say perhaps they are being genuine when they start listing off multiple reasons to go to Chicago over other schools. And trying really hard to make a logical argument for you

I guess it's important to imagine if you see yourself in their shoes someday, being that excited to go to a school. For me personally it's rather infectious to be around people who love their school, but maybe that's not what works for you. It's probably a little intimidating at first, but I think trying to see it from their perspective may help.

[Tadatsune]

I think the ~$30k in extra scholarship money at Duke/UVA is plenty to justify attending them over Chicago if you liked them better.

This reminds me of my undergrad ASW event experience. I went to UChicago with a really high expectations, but the students I met were troglodytes and the administrators arrogant SOBs. I didn't like the school, the city, anything. I left and never looked back, and was very, very happy with my decision. I didn't even bother to apply to UChi Law this time around. Now, my particular situation is not terribly relevant, and I'm sure there are lots of people who have gone to UChicago who had the time of their lives. But the broader point is this: you don't have to go somewhere you dislike. In fact, you'll probably be a lot better for not doing so.

The question is, how much did you dislike Chicago? Given the placement/financial aid situation, I think that Chicago is the objectively "correct" response. If you liked the school and the city, but were turned off a little by some of the people, I'd say that you'd probably be able to get over it pretty easily once you settle in and find people you feel more comfortable with. However, if you really didn't like it, take the (respectable amount of) money and run. There is no point in being miserable at UChi, when you could be happy at Duke or UVA, especially if you think that miserableness might effect your academic performance.

[StrictlyBusiness]

Just wanted to mark this thread. I'm making a similar decision on Chicago/Northwestern/Duke and I had pretty much the same feel towards Chicago. Northwestern and Duke just seemed way more like my type of people.