T6 (sticker) vs. Lower T-14 ($$) Forum

[skers]

Even with 90K at NU I think you have to go to Penn or CLS. If you really want NYC big law, choose between the best school in the city or a T10 with 45K. NU should not even be in consideration

What the fuck are you even trying to say here? Jesus.

[bk1]

Sorry for an overly abused topic, but please help me choose! I hope to work in big law in NYC (or maybe move back to LA). I understand that the general consensus on TLS is that "T6 is worth sticker" and "if you're going into six-figure debt anyway, you should just choose the school with the best chances for big law" but scholarships like $90k from Northwestern seem like such a big amount to turn down... Any thoughts?

I used to think along the 6 figure line, but the truth is more nuanced than that. It's not just about getting biglaw, it's about staying in biglaw. Sticker price debt is going to take you at least 5 years to pay off (and that's if your going pedal to the metal). Only about 20% of biglaw associates make it that far meaning that you have an 80% chance of not making that far before you then take a likely lower paying job. It doesn't really matter whether those 80% are forced out or choose to leave because neither case is great for you. If they're forced out then that really sucks, but even if they choose to leave of their own accord you have an 80% chance of sticking out something that you dislike just to pay off your debt when you would have left earlier had you not had that debt on your back.

I'd take your preference of NU or Duke (similar debtload since NU's higher scholly is balanced by Duke's lower CoA). You're more likely to get biglaw at a T6 but you're risking a lot more since there is a decent chance you won't stick around long enough to make a significant dent in your debtload. If think you're safer saving 100k+ (due to interest) by taking a lower T14 over T6.

[blase33]

let me break it down for you: If you want NYC biglaw go to CLS (best law school in NYC, duh) or Penn with a 45K scholly. 45K is worth the placement advantage offered by Penn/CLS

[lawyerwannabe]

You have a lot of good options. I don't think any choice is wrong, but I would probably choose NU because it is a peer school to every school on your list except CLS and I, personally, think that $90k scholly plus lower COL as compared to NYC makes it a more rational choice than CLS.

[Old Gregg]

Only when you start in NYC biglaw, and start realizing how little you take home because of rent, taxes, and loans, will you start kicking yourself for not taking the scholarship. Go to NU.

[skers]

let me break it down for you: If you want NYC biglaw go to CLS (best law school in NYC, duh) or Penn with a 45K scholly. 45K is worth the placement advantage offered by Penn/CLS

45k difference in placement between Penn and NU lolno.

[isaiah53]

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[Tiago Splitter]

for financial consideration, i've been working since i finished undergrad, and i have money saved up for law school. if i obtain a paid SA position the summers after my 1L and 2L, i think i can graduate with less than $150,000 in debt (assuming i pay sticker). granted that's still a lot of money, but that's better than $240,000 in debt.

If these things happen, they could have also happened at NU, leaving you under 100K debt when you graduate.

Only when you start in NYC biglaw, and start realizing how little you take home because of rent, taxes, and loans, will you start kicking yourself for not taking the scholarship. Go to NU.

Why does everyone who gets BigLaw assume they would have gotten BigLaw regardless of the school they chose to attend?

[bernaldiaz]

Northwestern gets so much love on TLS and Duke gets so little. It seems like Duke would be the least expensive option here and have at least as good of a shot at NYC Big Law as NU. I guess Durham sucks compared to Chicago, but the weather might make up for that a little.

[whitman]

Yeah, why is there so much hate for Duke on TLS? And Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill is actually awesome.

[bernaldiaz]

Yeah, why is there so much hate for Duke on TLS? And Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill is actually awesome.

Yeah I actually like it down there, but it for most people it doesn't compare to Chicago (probably rightfully so).

[Samara]

ahh so torn... i should list some reasons why i'm reluctant to turn down columbia before i get "attacked" for being too idealistic or irrational to turn down NU haha. columbia has been my dream school since i started thinking about law school three years ago, and i feel extremely blessed/lucky to have been admitted with my borderline LSAT score. i don't know if i'll ever get this oportunity again.

also in the way future, i'm considering working as a foreign counsel to a korean firm, especially now that korea and america have signed the FTA, and i believe the columbia name will carry me further in the korean legal community (again, somebody can correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just a 0L so this might be just speculation). columbia also has a center devoted entirely to korean legal studies, which i don't think i've seen in any of the other schools i've been admitted to, so i feel like columbia would have the strongest ties to korea.

for financial consideration, i've been working since i finished undergrad, and i have money saved up for law school. if i obtain a paid SA position the summers after my 1L and 2L, i think i can graduate with less than $150,000 in debt (assuming i pay sticker). granted that's still a lot of money, but that's better than $240,000 in debt.

so do my reasons change anything? or would it still be stupid of me to turn down NU?

I can't speak to the efficacy of CLS towards your eventual goal of working for a Korean firm, though I would suspect that (like other specialty areas or rankings) its impact is small. Do you already have connections to that type of work? It seems like CLS's Korean legal center would enhance, but not create, ties to that field/community.

I voted Northwestern, but I don't think you would be stupid to take CLS. It's about managing your risk and where you feel comfortable. NU (or Duke) would spread the risk around a little more (getting that first biglaw job vs. keeping it long enough to pay down the debt) and CLS would backload the risk a little more. If you are more comfortable with shifting your risk that way, really like the school, and believe that the Korean legal center would provide at least a marginal benefit, I think you can feel comfortable choosing CLS.

[beachbum]

Yeah, why is there so much hate for Duke on TLS? And Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill is actually awesome.

I dunno if it's hate for Duke as much as it is trolling for Duke's peers. I'm just shooting in the dark here, but I suspect it has something do with Duke's GPA requirements. TLS seems to attract a lot of people who didn't do particularly well in undergrad, found TLS/some external motivation and did well on the LSAT, and ended up with a low-3 GPA and a 170+ LSAT. Duke generally won't take those students; UVA and NU will. So, especially among the MVPBDNC group, this leads to higher numbers of V and N.

When you couple this with the fact that Duke has a small class size, not a ton of people want to work in the south (for one reason or another, Duke still seems to be associated with southern placement), and Durham is certainly not for everyone, and you have disproportionately fewer Duke students relative to its peers.

But, as best as can be determined, MVPBDNC are still peers. There might be some argument that P is a little better (at least, with the current state of NYC relative to other markets), but they all have roughly equal placement.

[bk1]

Yeah, why is there so much hate for Duke on TLS? And Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill is actually awesome.

To be honest I don't really see much hate for Duke specifically outside of the general anti-South bias that TLS has due to having more West Coasters and Northeasters.

[kennethellenparcell]

also in the way future, i'm considering working as a foreign counsel to a korean firm, especially now that korea and america have signed the FTA, and i believe the columbia name will carry me further in the korean legal community (again, somebody can correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just a 0L so this might be just speculation). columbia also has a center devoted entirely to korean legal studies, which i don't think i've seen in any of the other schools i've been admitted to, so i feel like columbia would have the strongest ties to korea.

Why don't you ask NU if they can put you in touch with people who have pursued/are pursuing this path or one similar to it? I am considering a version of this career plan, but with a different East Asian country and NU put me in touch with a guy who was pretty knowledgeable. My general not very well-informed impression is that if you have the language skills, you should be able to get to where you want with NU. Reason being that fluent speakers and people who can read legal documents in both languages are still fairly rare.

Check this blog post also in case it helps you: http://lsatsensei.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... korea.html

Also, I'm a 0L but I've worked in a big law firm for two years and the way associates drop out around me like flies makes me really wary of the financial risk one would be taking by passing up the 90K at NU.

I have been curious myself about going to t6 v. t14 with money. I don't have as good of options as you. WL at CCN and less $ at NU. For what it's worth, I talked to an associate who graduated from Columbia and lateralled from a NY firm to Chicago today about what he would do if faced with the CN v. NU with $ decision and he said - if you're set on going to a NY firm then CN does give you an advantage. I think this is the general TLS consensus too. However, it's not like people don't recognize the name NU (even asian people lol). I don't think you can make a wrong choice but personally I would probably take the money.

[isaiah53]

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[TUP]

I'd pick Duke. Keep in mind that the COA at Duke will be lower (chicago >expensive durham).

True, but NU's better placement makes it well worth the ~15k+ IMO.

I made the same decision last fall and went Duke. The NLJ average difference was ~7% in favor of NU, but the clerkship difference was ~5% in favor of Duke. I figured the 2% was negligible and if anything my work experience would be a lot more valuable at Duke. Just something for OP to consider.

Also, I had NYU at sticker and didn't even consider it after they wouldn't negotiate. CLS would have had me thinking about the decision more, but the ~100k difference when you factor in NYC COL is ridiculous.

[TUP]

Northwestern gets so much love on TLS and Duke gets so little. It seems like Duke would be the least expensive option here and have at least as good of a shot at NYC Big Law as NU. I guess Durham sucks compared to Chicago, but the weather might make up for that a little.

+1 to all of this.

[bdubs]

This should be between money at Duke/NU and CLS, depending on your preferences.

The decision between Duke and NU shouldn't be made on the basis of placement, it's not a big enough difference to warrant that. The schools couldn't be much different though. Duke is not really near anything resembling a city. NU is in the middle of one of the largest cities in the US. Duke is really small, NU isn't huge but it's noticeably larger. NU has more people with WE, Duke has comparatively fewer. Duke has no "home" biglaw market. Northwestern has Chicago.

Questions in order of importance:
1) Do you want to work in Chicago? If yes or a strong maybe, go to NU.
2) Do you want to live in a city? If yes, go to NU. If no, go to Duke.
3) Did you like the people at ASW or alums from one school better than the other? Choose that school.

You should choose CLS if you greatly prefer New York and are a prestige whore when it comes to firms.

[t14fanboy]

Even with 90K at NU I think you have to go to Penn or CLS. If you really want NYC big law, choose between the best school in the city or a T10 with 45K. NU should not even be in consideration

Mandatory sterilization.

[Real Madrid]

Remember that NU is going to cost 10K more per year than Duke or Michigan.

Choose based upon personal fit. NU has more biglaw hires than Duke has than Michigan has... because of self-selection. Personal fit is the answer

For C/O 2009, Michigan had 288 / 412 (70%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 187 / 260 (72%) go into private practice.
For C/O 2011, Michigan had 169 / 379 (45%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 184 / 287 (64%) go into private practice.

That seems like a pretty big change peoples' job preferences from 2009 to 2011. Suddenly a ton of people at Michigan "self-selected" out of law firm jobs.

On the flip side, NU's advantage comes from the work experience so many people have going in. If you have the same work experience going into both schools, that advantage is negated.

[CanadianWolf]

Northwestern.

[rayiner]

Remember that NU is going to cost 10K more per year than Duke or Michigan.

Choose based upon personal fit. NU has more biglaw hires than Duke has than Michigan has... because of self-selection. Personal fit is the answer

For C/O 2009, Michigan had 288 / 412 (70%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 187 / 260 (72%) go into private practice.
For C/O 2011, Michigan had 169 / 379 (45%) go into private practice. Northwestern had 184 / 287 (64%) go into private practice.

That seems like a pretty big change peoples' job preferences from 2009 to 2011. Suddenly a ton of people at Michigan "self-selected" out of law firm jobs.

On the flip side, NU's advantage comes from the work experience so many people have going in. If you have the same work experience going into both schools, that advantage is negated.

I'm not comparing NU to Michigan. I'm comparing Michgan 2009 to Michigan 2011 and the ostensible change in what people "self selected" into.