Mich (30k) v. Penn Forum

[t14fanboy]

ITT: Uninformed people giving bad advice to less informed people.

[bobbyh1919]

I should've said this before but are you sure it's going to be Penn at sticker? They're behind on awards and have been telling applicants to expect them in the next two weeks.

[benb]

I should've said this before but are you sure it's going to be Penn at sticker? They're behind on awards and have been telling applicants to expect them in the next two weeks.

based off lsn, ppl w/ my numbers haven't gotten money from Penn the past few years.

[bobbyh1919]

I would inquire whether or not you should be expecting an award or should be evaluating your decision at sticker. Tell them about the Michigan money and keep your fingers crossed.

[benb]

thanks again all.

[benb]

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[rayiner]

Here's the thing about Michigan versus Penn--it's not that Michigan is bad. I've been crunching the employment data referring to the last several years, and Michigan place about in line with it's peer group. The thing is, that peer group doesn't include Penn. Just because the TLS CW has an "MVPB" tier doesn't make it so. That CW predates a lot of the transparency in the employment data we have seen over the last year or two. Moreover, USNWR has consistently ranked Penn above Michigan for the last decade. And that is based on a measure, reputation among academics, that greatly lags perceptions among employers. Penn is still paying for, in the rankings, the fact that it did not have a top-notch faculty in the 1990's.

Now, the difference between the groups isn't much. The average difference in big law + clerkship placement is just about 10%. The thing is, it doesn't take much to justify a cost differential of $30,000. If the lifetime difference in income of getting big law versus missing it is $300,000 or more,[1] then it's worth $30,000 more for an extra 10% chance.

[1] I think the difference is much higher than that--$300,000 is the difference just for a 3-4 year stint in big law, assuming it doesn't do anything to improve your prospects after that. Given that many of the other lucrative legal jobs (in-house, etc) require big law experience, $300,000 is an almost ridiculously conservative estimate.

[HeavenWood]

$10k/year cost difference plus East Coast preference = Penn.

[benb]

thanks for the info. very helpful.

[Real Madrid]

ITT: Uninformed people giving bad advice to less informed people.

I'm a 3L who has gone through OCI, so I'm about as informed about this topic as you're going to find. The differences evident from the available data would be worth $40k to me. OP may be kicking himself if he goes to Penn and gets the same job he would have anyway, but he might also be kicking himself if he goes to Michigan and falls into that 10% gap in placement between the two schools. Trust me, when you're in the middle of OCI, the difference between 14 interviews of 17 interviews, the difference between 3 callbacks and 4 callbacks, the extra interview slots at big NYC firms who have a lot of open positions--all of that stuff will be worth $40k to you.

and what if i decide biglaw isn't the end-all be-all for me...is the choice still penn?

Yes because Penn is better at everything that matters than Mishitgan.

Did Michigan take a dump on a rejection letter and then mail it to you or something?

[bobbyh1919]

Here's the thing about Michigan versus Penn--it's not that Michigan is bad. I've been crunching the employment data referring to the last several years, and Michigan place about in line with it's peer group. The thing is, that peer group doesn't include Penn. Just because the TLS CW has an "MVPB" tier doesn't make it so. That CW predates a lot of the transparency in the employment data we have seen over the last year or two. Moreover, USNWR has consistently ranked Penn above Michigan for the last decade. And that is based on a measure, reputation among academics, that greatly lags perceptions among employers. Penn is still paying for, in the rankings, the fact that it did not have a top-notch faculty in the 1990's.

Now, the difference between the groups isn't much. The average difference in big law + clerkship placement is just about 10%. The thing is, it doesn't take much to justify a cost differential of $30,000. If the lifetime difference in income of getting big law versus missing it is $300,000 or more,[1] then it's worth $30,000 more for an extra 10% chance.

[1] I think the difference is much higher than that--$300,000 is the difference just for a 3-4 year stint in big law, assuming it doesn't do anything to improve your prospects after that. Given that many of the other lucrative legal jobs (in-house, etc) require big law experience, $300,000 is an almost ridiculously conservative estimate.

Well put. It really isn't that Michigan isn't doing well, it's that Penn has just been killing it these past few years and has sort of separated itself from the rest of it's tier.

[benb]

.

[t14fanboy]

Yes because Penn is better at everything that matters than Mishitgan.

Did Michigan take a dump on a rejection letter and then mail it to you or something?

Lmao. I lulzed.

[johansantana21]

Here's the thing about Michigan versus Penn--it's not that Michigan is bad. I've been crunching the employment data referring to the last several years, and Michigan place about in line with it's peer group. The thing is, that peer group doesn't include Penn. Just because the TLS CW has an "MVPB" tier doesn't make it so. That CW predates a lot of the transparency in the employment data we have seen over the last year or two. Moreover, USNWR has consistently ranked Penn above Michigan for the last decade. And that is based on a measure, reputation among academics, that greatly lags perceptions among employers. Penn is still paying for, in the rankings, the fact that it did not have a top-notch faculty in the 1990's.

Now, the difference between the groups isn't much. The average difference in big law + clerkship placement is just about 10%. The thing is, it doesn't take much to justify a cost differential of $30,000. If the lifetime difference in income of getting big law versus missing it is $300,000 or more,[1] then it's worth $30,000 more for an extra 10% chance.

[1] I think the difference is much higher than that--$300,000 is the difference just for a 3-4 year stint in big law, assuming it doesn't do anything to improve your prospects after that. Given that many of the other lucrative legal jobs (in-house, etc) require big law experience, $300,000 is an almost ridiculously conservative estimate.

Well put. It really isn't that Michigan isn't doing well, it's that Penn has just been killing it these past few years and has sort of separated itself from the rest of it's tier.

Mishitgan has a retarded career services -- one that told it's students to bid Chicago and thus ruined their careers before it even began.

While this was only one year, it's reflective of the shithole that Mishitgan is compared to Penn.

Penn is easily worth 30k more than Mishitgan. You would be making a disastrous decision if you chose Mishit.

[071816]

I voted for Penn State.

[HeavenWood]

Here's the thing about Michigan versus Penn--it's not that Michigan is bad. I've been crunching the employment data referring to the last several years, and Michigan place about in line with it's peer group. The thing is, that peer group doesn't include Penn. Just because the TLS CW has an "MVPB" tier doesn't make it so. That CW predates a lot of the transparency in the employment data we have seen over the last year or two. Moreover, USNWR has consistently ranked Penn above Michigan for the last decade. And that is based on a measure, reputation among academics, that greatly lags perceptions among employers. Penn is still paying for, in the rankings, the fact that it did not have a top-notch faculty in the 1990's.

Now, the difference between the groups isn't much. The average difference in big law + clerkship placement is just about 10%. The thing is, it doesn't take much to justify a cost differential of $30,000. If the lifetime difference in income of getting big law versus missing it is $300,000 or more,[1] then it's worth $30,000 more for an extra 10% chance.

[1] I think the difference is much higher than that--$300,000 is the difference just for a 3-4 year stint in big law, assuming it doesn't do anything to improve your prospects after that. Given that many of the other lucrative legal jobs (in-house, etc) require big law experience, $300,000 is an almost ridiculously conservative estimate.

Well put. It really isn't that Michigan isn't doing well, it's that Penn has just been killing it these past few years and has sort of separated itself from the rest of it's tier.

Mishitgan has a retarded career services -- one that told it's students to bid Chicago and thus ruined their careers before it even began.

While this was only one year, it's reflective of the shithole that Mishitgan is compared to Penn.

Penn is easily worth 30k more than Mishitgan. You would be making a disastrous decision if you chose Mishit.

I agree that Penn is worth $30k more than Michigan based off the OP's career goals.

I also think you need to shut the fuck up and stop needlessly trashing Michigan.

[benb]

.

[bobbyh1919]

You've bumped this thread like 8 times now. The poll shows a virtual toss up with Michigan getting a few more votes. Visit both and pick the one you like best. They're both fine options.

[HeavenWood]

You've bumped this thread like 8 times now. The poll shows a virtual toss up with Michigan getting a few more votes. Visit both and pick the one you like best. They're both fine options.

This. I will say that if you visit both and absolutely hated Penn, going to Michigan would not all be "unacceptable."

[benb]

sorry for the bumps, i'm having a tough time deciding so just tryna get as much input as possible. thanks for the advice all, it's been helpful.

[rayiner]

sorry for the bumps, i'm having a tough time deciding so just tryna get as much input as possible. thanks for the advice all, it's been helpful.

Unless you liked Penn better, I don't know why this is a difficult decision for you. You want east coast, Penn is on the east coast, go there.

[Kendi]

I do not “get” the Mich NYC connection. Especially since there are over a dozen NYC and nearby feeder schools for NYC firms to choose from. Mich for Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland yes, but NYC is over 500 miles away. Their big eastern market connection must rely on OCI, I guess.

[keg411]

I do not “get” the Mich NYC connection. Especially since there are over a dozen NYC and nearby feeder schools for NYC firms to choose from. Mich for Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland yes, but NYC is over 500 miles away. Their big eastern market connection must rely on OCI, I guess.

All of the Top Fourteen schools feed into NYC. I'm a 2L at M.i.c.h. and have a Summer Associate jerb in NYC.

[Kendi]

All of the Top Fourteen schools feed into NYC. I'm a 2L at M.i.c.h. and have a Summer Associate jerb in NYC.

I tend to think in terms of geographical, but yes, T-14 feeder makes sense. As a side note, given the distance to NY, I assume you have to relocate for the summer. How does that work in terms of COL versus income? From what I heard NY pay should be more than enough to cover travel, housing, dining at the Four Seasons and Broadway plays.

[keg411]

All of the Top Fourteen schools feed into NYC. I'm a 2L at M.i.c.h. and have a Summer Associate jerb in NYC.

I tend to think in terms of geographical, but yes, T-14 feeder makes sense. As a side note, given the distance to NY, I assume you have to relocate for the summer. How does that work in terms of COL versus income? From what I heard NY pay should be more than enough to cover travel, housing, dining at the Four Seasons and Broadway plays.

I mean, you don't want to spend like crazy or anything, but you make enough (at least for 2L summer) where it won't hurt. The relocation is probably worse for 1L summer since people usually don't get paid, but I just lived at home, so it wasn't a big deal. Also, some people try to sublet to the summer starters to try and make back some of the COL-in-two places money.