Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25) Forum

[Always Credited]

Here's what GW reports:

http://www.law.gwu.edu/Careers/prospect ... stics.aspx

[rayiner]

Thanks for the info.

Is there anyway to find the stats for BC/BU/ND/Fordham?

Updated, but I can't find federal clerkship stats for those schools. Any ideas?

[StarLightSpectre]

Updated, but I can't find federal clerkship stats for those schools. Any ideas?

Thanks a lot Rayiner!

[2014]

WUSTL posted this but I'm assuming it doesn't work given the inability to distinguish clerkships and biglaw from mid and shit law.

http://law.wustl.edu/news/pages.aspx?id=9112

[LogicalBaozi]

Is the [4] after Cornell indicative of anything other than a typo? I see only three notes at the bottom....

And excellent job, sir. You are the type of quality poster that keeps old blood coming back, and makes new blood realize the value of these boards.

[Gail]

wtf is jd advantage?

[rayiner]

wtf is jd advantage?

See http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf (Starting on Page 6)

[t14fanboy]

Thanks for taking the initiative to do this.

[Geneva]

thank you!

[Geneva]

I really wish we had access to comprehensive data on what %age of "employment"=school funded fellowships/unpaid internships

[rayiner]

I really wish we had access to comprehensive data on what %age of "employment"=school funded fellowships/unpaid internships

A number of schools do publish that information. E.g. for Northwestern: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

2 short-term or part-time jobs at law firms
3 short-term or part-time jobs in business/industry
1 short-term or part-time job in government
1 part-time job in "academia"
11 law-school funded part-time jobs

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Texas: TTTexas blocks employment data behind password protection.

looks like they just changed their entire layout this year (would've been helpful 2 years ago!)

--LinkRemoved--

CO 2010:
TTTexas: 29% biglaw + 11% clerkships = 40%

CO2011: (yikes!)
TTTexas: 24% biglaw + 6% clerkships = 30%

Updated, thanks!

Fobulous, how did you get those numbers?

I got:

CO 2010:
UT: 31.77% (101 attorneys or more) + 11.74% (federal clerkships) = 43.51%

CO 2011:
UT: 26.75% + 7.92% = 34.67%

and here is CO 2009:
UT: 38.04% + 9.47% = 47.51%

Rayiner, can you update with these numbers? I can posts screen shots if that would help settle things.

ETA:

[rayiner]

Texas: TTTexas blocks employment data behind password protection.

looks like they just changed their entire layout this year (would've been helpful 2 years ago!)

--LinkRemoved--

CO 2010:
TTTexas: 29% biglaw + 11% clerkships = 40%

CO2011: (yikes!)
TTTexas: 24% biglaw + 6% clerkships = 30%

Updated, thanks!

Fobulous, how did you get those numbers?

I got:

CO 2010:
UT: 31.77% (101 attorneys or more) + 11.74% (federal clerkships) = 43.51%

CO 2011:
UT: 26.75% + 7.92% = 34.67%

and here is CO 2009:
UT: 38.04% + 9.47% = 47.51%

Rayiner, can you update with these numbers? I can posts screen shots if that would help settle things.

Note that on the "Employment by Employer Type" the categories add up to 100%, yet have no field for "unemployed." Thus, they are counting %-age of employed rather than %-age of class. All of the schools in the chart are normalized to count %-age of the class. If you multiply your numbers by the %-age class that is employed (89%), you end up with the numbers f0bulous and I got.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Note that on the "Employment by Employer Type" the categories add up to 100%, yet have no field for "unemployed." Thus, they are counting %-age of employed rather than %-age of class. All of the schools in the chart are normalized to count %-age of the class. If you multiply your numbers by the %-age class that is employed (89%), you end up with the numbers f0bulous and I got.

Those sneaky bastards. Usually I'm better at not falling for that, but the employed/unemployed is on a different page.

[de5igual]

The UT numbers are disappointing, and IMHO, will only go downhill. UT's been trying to masquerade around as a national school, but it's focus on being a Texas school has really worked to its detriment. National employers have been slowly pulling out over the past couple years from OCI because of a lack of student interest in non-Texas markets, and this process sped up ITE. With this whole dean debacle and the school's reluctance to bring in more out-of-state students to diversify placement, things don't look like they'll get any better.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

The UT numbers are disappointing, and IMHO, will only go downhill. UT's been trying to masquerade around as a national school, but it's focus on being a Texas school has really worked to its detriment. National employers have been slowly pulling out over the past couple years from OCI because of a lack of student interest in non-Texas markets, and this process sped up ITE. With this whole dean debacle and the school's reluctance to bring in more out-of-state students to diversify placement, things don't look like they'll get any better.

I'm all for being objective, but this seems harsh. What national firms have pulled out of OCI? And how does the dean situation affect law firms view of the school? (A lit boutique full of UT alum hadn't even heard of the dean situation when I was going through OCI--I don't really think law firms really care that much about what's going on in the inner-workings of the school.) I've never thought UT was on par with any T14 schools, but I consider them on par with UCLA and Vanderbilt. I don't really see how that has changed at all. Of those three schools, I think UCLA is going to have the hardest time keeping things up with CA economy crumbling and tuition skyrocketing.

ETA: The numbers are disappointing because Texas has a huge class, which makes it harder to place its grads in an awful economy. Hiring is already picked up significantly though. It's completely bogus to think that class of 2013's numbers will be anywhere as low as 2011. CO 2012 had it better than 2011, and we (2013) had it significantly better than both. Maybe you meant downhill in comparison to keeping up with peer schools? B/c thinking the placement numbers will continue to drop when we are looking at the worst year of legal hiring in the last decade (2010 was probably worse b/c of the no-offers, but I don't think that shows up in the numbers we have access to) doesn't make sense to me.

[Sammy841]

Michigan, you are scaring me. What the hell? Less than half the class with clerkships or big law? Damn.

[skers]

Michigan, you are scaring me. What the hell? Less than half the class with clerkships or big law? Damn.

TTT obviously.

[rayiner]

Michigan, you are scaring me. What the hell? Less than half the class with clerkships or big law? Damn.

TTT obviously.

I think the situation at Michigan, Virginia, etc, were temporary instances of CSO's not knowing what the fuck to do in the recession. C/O 2012 should be significant rebound for these schools.

[Bronck]

Michigan, you are scaring me. What the hell? Less than half the class with clerkships or big law? Damn.

TTT obviously.

I think the situation at Michigan, Virginia, etc, were temporary instances of CSO's not knowing what the fuck to do in the recession. C/O 2012 should be significant rebound for these schools.

Not good news when your CSO fail to adapt to the changing market.

[t14fanboy]

Michigan, you are scaring me. What the hell? Less than half the class with clerkships or big law? Damn.

TTT obviously.

I think the situation at Michigan, Virginia, etc, were temporary instances of CSO's not knowing what the fuck to do in the recession. C/O 2012 should be significant rebound for these schools.

Not good news when your CSO fail to adapt to the changing market.

Not good news when we have an unprecedented legal market decline.

[Indifferent]

Not good news when your CSO fail to adapt to the changing market.

I don't think you can really condemn these CSOs based on one year of unpreparedness. I doubt even the most ardent legal doomsday trolls were expecting '09 OCI to be as bad as it was. I remember coming into school in the fall as callbacks/offers started streaming in, it was shocking. I am sure these CSOs anticipated hiring to continue to diminish, but the effect of the recession was more dramatic than most could have anticipated.

'10 OCI was substantially better than '09, and from what I understand '11 OCI was at least marginally better than '10. I doubt these schools will continue to report these kind of numbers.

[Bronck]

Not good news when your CSO fail to adapt to the changing market.

I don't think you can really condemn these CSOs based on one year of unpreparedness. I doubt even the most ardent legal doomsday trolls were expecting '09 OCI to be as bad as it was. I remember coming into school in the fall as callbacks/offers started streaming in, it was shocking. I am sure these CSOs anticipated hiring to continue to diminish, but the effect of the recession was more dramatic than most could have anticipated.

'10 OCI was substantially better than '09, and from what I understand '11 OCI was at least marginally better than '10. I doubt these schools will continue to report these kind of numbers.

Other schools seemed to have adjusted for it better than Michshitgan.

[rayiner]

Added Penn: http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html

[iamrobk]

Added Penn: http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html

Was just about to ask if I was crazy, since I didn't see the 2011 data. I refreshed the page and it showed up. Thanks.

Edit: And not that it really means anything at all, but I am a bit surprised the median salary dropped to 145k. I woulda thought if anything ITE, more kids would go to NYC than secondary markets. Guess not, or there's some other reason.