Miami vs. Nebraska Forum

[reformed calvinist]

Also, why then are the out-of-state numbers high for the schools I have listed: Nebraska (32%), Miami (50%), and South Carolina (35%)?

I will bet my left testicle that the out of staters from Nebraska are people from neighboring states like Wyoming and South Dakota. Some schools in the area have reciprocity agreements (e.g. I know SD residents get in-state tuition at UMN), but I don't know about there. Same with SC-people from the South.

Miami needs no explanation. Apparently people will come from the other side of the country for that city. For the life of me I will never understand it. In terms of quality job experience, Miami is awesome if you're interested in PD (one of my parents worked in that office) or the State Attorney's office. It is very competitive though.

I'd be willing to bet that for every attorney at Carlton Fields, et al you have 10 taking out ABOGADO bus stop ads. By the way, do you speak Spanish? If you don't, huge strike against you at any sort of PI, and huge strike against you hanging your own shingle. I mean, there's no shortage of DUIs and traffic tickets in this town, but even the market for that is saturated.

As far as job prospects in the absolute, I doubt Nebraska has any competition from any other school in its market. Which is probably good, I just have no idea how many actual jobs there are.

It's definitely nice to hear from someone who actually knows the area of one of the schools, thanks. I do know a decent amount of Spanish, but I'd definitely have to reacquaint myself with the language.

See, the DA or State Attorney or even U.S. Attorney's office is something that I am interested in and I feel like they don't really mind the "ties" argument too much, but then again, I'm not completely sure about that.

And I was thinking the same thing with Nebraska's job market...probably somewhat unsaturated since they only graduate about 120 JDs per year

You're competing with people from across the country, as they are very desirable positions. Not trying to dissuade you, just the hard truth. If you're willing to work in a less sought-after county in Florida, your odds are much better (this is assuming there are no ongoing hiring freezes when you graduate).

If you can't visit Nebraska (I would, before I matriculated), at least do some serious homework on it. I think Montana graduates less than 100 J.D.s a year, but there's almost nothing in that state. Be careful.

[romothesavior]

Being from where you're from, in at those schools, at those prices, I'd rather immolate myself than go.

Cool, thanks?

Do us all a favor and read this.

[hailtopitt007]

Being from where you're from, in at those schools, at those prices, I'd rather immolate myself than go.

Cool, thanks?

Do us all a favor and read this.

I was looking for a sticky like this or something in this forum to read before posting...would've helped/saved time..

That's not to say I haven't learned a LOT from the posts here, thanks again everyone

[romothesavior]

Being from where you're from, in at those schools, at those prices, I'd rather immolate myself than go.

Cool, thanks?

Do us all a favor and read this.

I was looking for a sticky like this or something in this forum to read before posting...would've helped/saved time..

That's not to say I haven't learned a LOT from the posts here, thanks again everyone

At the end of the day, all of these schools have mediocre (even poor) job prospects and have very limited reach, even within their own regions. Miami doesn't do much outside Miami, and good luck getting a good job outside of NE with a degree from Nebraska. I've never encountered a single one in St. Louis, Indianapolis, or Chicago. Your ties are to Pennsylvania, and with the regional nature of legal hiring and the huge expense you are looking at for these schools, they are all terrible options.

Maybe self-immolation is a bit extreme, but you're basically looking at financial immolation with these options.

[2014jd]

James, timbs, and 2014jd: that explained a lot and has cleared up a lot of things for me now, I really appreciate the explanations.

So, now my next question, and 2014jd, you kind of hinted at this here: if I were to join local organizations (community, religious, political, etc.) and be able to show a potential employer that I have established ties and footing in the area while attending law school, would that at least help to prove that I am committed to staying in the area? I guess I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around this because I know of a few individuals who took job offers in the cities where they attended law school even though they had no prior ties to the area.

Also, does any of this discussion about ties to the area matter for any type of government or corporate position (I know timbs mentioned this) or is that mainly for private firms only? For example, if I pursue corporate and securities law and get an interview with some large national corporation's legal department in Miami, are they going to question my ties to the area?

Wish I could help you more with some of your specific questions, but I have not had to sell my ties as I grew up in a city not far from Columbus and have lived here for 5 years prior to law school. I'm sure it is possible to get a job w/o ties (with grades or networking or luck) but I would count on being at a competitive disadvantage to others in your class who do have ties. Again, see if Sm Firm Hiring P is still taking questions here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&start=25 and ask him how to show an employer that you plan on sticking around.

[reformed calvinist]

This really doesn't detract from your point, but UM is A-ok for Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach/South Florida in general. Decent if you do well in the rest of Florida, but there aren't many other cities with decent midlaw markets. Tampa (yes, even with Stetson) and Orlando maybe (I would imagine Tally for State govt jobs, and I know nothing about Jacksonville. Outside those metropolitan areas, it's pretty much just bumfuck (no offense, I have family in Ocala, but it's bumfuck for sure). For the top jobs, a Miami student isn't really competing with UF/FSU so much as with the T14ers.

That said, I think Miami is a horrible idea if you're not: a) from Miami or b) have significant ties there. I don't even mean ties in terms of it being an insular market. I mean ties in terms of connections. Friends, friends of the family, any sort of ties that can help you in your career. Without those, it'll be very, very painful. Both my mother and uncle have been active in the legal community there for the longest time and even I don't want to go there. I know and know of many people who went to Florida T2s and T3s. Some have decent midlaw jobs, but there are only so many firms hiring only so many people. A guy who scored his job working for the local government and developed government and local lobbying connections because his father knew the mayor. Stuff like that. Hustling is good, but you're going to be hustling with a lot of people with the home field advantage. This may be true just about anywhere, but at Miami you don't have school prestige or reach to back you up. If you're going to attend a T2, attend one at which you have the home field advantage.

[JCFindley]

If you have never been to Nebraska and think you could live there the rest of your life you really should go and see. (I would recommend January but that won't help you much.)

I actually like NE but be aware there is Omaha then there is Nebraska. (Lincoln is different too but dominated by the University to a large extent.) Omaha is a nice medium sized city with a very low cost of living but the rest of the state is extremely rural and there just isn't much to do. In the winter it is COLD. I am not talking PA cold with forests and mountains and pretty winter scenes I mean between zero and twenty degrees with thirty MPH winds almost EVERY day.... Winter is miserable there. You get two weeks of spring and fall between winter and the oven that is summer. Think near 100 degrees for three months and even before and after the 100 degree days you have months of 90s..... Just something you should know; some people love it.

It really is something you should see before you commit.

JC

[hailtopitt007]

This really doesn't detract from your point, but UM is A-ok for Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach/South Florida in general. Decent if you do well in the rest of Florida, but there aren't many other cities with decent midlaw markets. Tampa (yes, even with Stetson) and Orlando maybe (I would imagine Tally for State govt jobs, and I know nothing about Jacksonville. Outside those metropolitan areas, it's pretty much just bumfuck (no offense, I have family in Ocala, but it's bumfuck for sure). For the top jobs, a Miami student isn't really competing with UF/FSU so much as with the T14ers.

That said, I think Miami is a horrible idea if you're not: a) from Miami or b) have significant ties there. I don't even mean ties in terms of it being an insular market. I mean ties in terms of connections. Friends, friends of the family, any sort of ties that can help you in your career. Without those, it'll be very, very painful. Both my mother and uncle have been active in the legal community there for the longest time and even I don't want to go there. I know and know of many people who went to Florida T2s and T3s. Some have decent midlaw jobs, but there are only so many firms hiring only so many people. A guy who scored his job working for the local government and developed government and local lobbying connections because his father knew the mayor. Stuff like that. Hustling is good, but you're going to be hustling with a lot of people with the home field advantage. This may be true just about anywhere, but at Miami you don't have school prestige or reach to back you up. If you're going to attend a T2, attend one at which you have the home field advantage.

Thanks, that does make a lot of sense in terms of the home-field advantage argument. I just find it difficult to fathom that if I were to finish in the top 20% of my class at, say, Miami, that I would have as hard a time finding a good job in the Miami market as people here think I would. I guess it may just be shock because I am just now realizing this. My undergraduate pre-law advisor never mentioned anything about the importance of ties when I went over the list of schools I was applying to and then the list of schools I was accepted to and I think that is pissing me off right now more than anything. Like, was applying to some of these schools a time waste? I would only be the second lawyer in my extended family, so I really don't have any experience with these kind of details that no one seems to mention or know much about outside of forums like these.

One other thing that just came to mind: why would schools offer scholarships to out-of-state applicants if they really don't want them hanging around their legal market once they graduate? In other words, why would South Carolina give $18k to a kid from Pennsylvania if all they want is South Carolinians? It just seems like a waste to me.

[hailtopitt007]

If you have never been to Nebraska and think you could live there the rest of your life you really should go and see. (I would recommend January but that won't help you much.)

I actually like NE but be aware there is Omaha then there is Nebraska. (Lincoln is different too but dominated by the University to a large extent.) Omaha is a nice medium sized city with a very low cost of living but the rest of the state is extremely rural and there just isn't much to do. In the winter it is COLD. I am not talking PA cold with forests and mountains and pretty winter scenes I mean between zero and twenty degrees with thirty MPH winds almost EVERY day.... Winter is miserable there. You get two weeks of spring and fall between winter and the oven that is summer. Think near 100 degrees for three months and even before and after the 100 degree days you have months of 90s..... Just something you should know; some people love it.

It really is something you should see before you commit.

JC

Thanks for the info, I think I would DEFINITELY have to visit before matriculating.

[JamesChapman23]

"I hear Nebraska is nice"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvWzQYbgXQY

[timbs4339]

One other thing that just came to mind: why would schools offer scholarships to out-of-state applicants if they really don't want them hanging around their legal market once they graduate? In other words, why would South Carolina give $18k to a kid from Pennsylvania if all they want is South Carolinians? It just seems like a waste to me.

A couple of reasons I can think of:

1) All of these schools like to think of themselves as "national" even when their placement is largely regional or in-state. This has to do more with intra-law school competition more than job placement. For example, it is hard to get good faculty to come teach at your school if you are known as a South Carolina only school, as faculty usually have a national background (T10 school, national biglaw firm, prestigious clerkship) and do not want to do scholarship focused on South Carolina law. Cultural/historical factors among law school deans also play into this, I could go into more detail but it would get boring really fast.

2) Even with scholly, the out-of-state student might still be paying more than the in-state student, a net financial benefit for the school.

3) If you restrict your acceptance pool to in-staters, you may be missing out on attracting high LSAT/GPA students from out of state. Law schools are very concerned about their USNWR ranking. Since reputation among academics and practitioners is also an important factor in the rankings, this also implicates #1.

This is a shame, since I think we could do with a lot more cheap (but respectable) state law schools that are responsive to the needs of the state bar and their regional markets, instead of everyone trying to play the same USNWR game.

[reformed calvinist]

This really doesn't detract from your point, but UM is A-ok for Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm Beach/South Florida in general. Decent if you do well in the rest of Florida, but there aren't many other cities with decent midlaw markets. Tampa (yes, even with Stetson) and Orlando maybe (I would imagine Tally for State govt jobs, and I know nothing about Jacksonville. Outside those metropolitan areas, it's pretty much just bumfuck (no offense, I have family in Ocala, but it's bumfuck for sure). For the top jobs, a Miami student isn't really competing with UF/FSU so much as with the T14ers.

That said, I think Miami is a horrible idea if you're not: a) from Miami or b) have significant ties there. I don't even mean ties in terms of it being an insular market. I mean ties in terms of connections. Friends, friends of the family, any sort of ties that can help you in your career. Without those, it'll be very, very painful. Both my mother and uncle have been active in the legal community there for the longest time and even I don't want to go there. I know and know of many people who went to Florida T2s and T3s. Some have decent midlaw jobs, but there are only so many firms hiring only so many people. A guy who scored his job working for the local government and developed government and local lobbying connections because his father knew the mayor. Stuff like that. Hustling is good, but you're going to be hustling with a lot of people with the home field advantage. This may be true just about anywhere, but at Miami you don't have school prestige or reach to back you up. If you're going to attend a T2, attend one at which you have the home field advantage.

Thanks, that does make a lot of sense in terms of the home-field advantage argument. I just find it difficult to fathom that if I were to finish in the top 20% of my class at, say, Miami, that I would have as hard a time finding a good job in the Miami market as people here think I would. I guess it may just be shock because I am just now realizing this. My undergraduate pre-law advisor never mentioned anything about the importance of ties when I went over the list of schools I was applying to and then the list of schools I was accepted to and I think that is pissing me off right now more than anything. Like, was applying to some of these schools a time waste? I would only be the second lawyer in my extended family, so I really don't have any experience with these kind of details that no one seems to mention or know much about outside of forums like these.

One other thing that just came to mind: why would schools offer scholarships to out-of-state applicants if they really don't want them hanging around their legal market once they graduate? In other words, why would South Carolina give $18k to a kid from Pennsylvania if all they want is South Carolinians? It just seems like a waste to me.

I'd imagine that enticing out of staters to attend lets them say "156% of students come from out of state!!"

[checkster]

This is a shame, since I think we could do with a lot more cheap (but respectable) state law schools that are responsive to the needs of the state bar and their regional markets, instead of everyone trying to play the same USNWR game.

+1

[NebraskaLawGrad2012]

Not sure if you've made a decision yet, but I wanted to offer some perspective as a current Nebraska law student. I am a 3L from Nebraska--graduating in just over a month (yes!). I too came here from out of state with a small scholarship. I can honestly tell you that I have no regrets over my decision to come here than to pursue my other options (San Diego and Iowa). Sure, I didn't have any ties to the local legal market, but you don't need them. Most people come to law school having never set foot in a law firm or talked to an attorney--this is the norm, not the exception. The CSO and student orgs here do a great job of putting you in front of potential employers with several networking opportunities beginning in the first year and continuing through your second and third years. I'll be perfectly candid with you and tell you that job prospects since I've been in law school have not been great nationwide. That said, our recent graduates have been successful both in finding jobs in Nebraska as well as exploring opportunities out of state. Before the recession, we hovered around a 50/50 rate between grads staying in state and those going out of Nebraska. With the recession, these numbers tend to hover more around 60/40 or 70/30 instate/out of state. The CSO will likely tell you that's because here in the Midwest the economies have not been hurt as much and I agree that's the case. But don't think for a minute that a Nebraska means you're going to live in Nebraska the rest of your life. I have an Arizona employer who wants to hire me and I know several other people in my class with jobs outside of Nebraska. I also have a good number of friends who have full time jobs with the firms they clerked for in Omaha and Lincoln. Bottom line is that it's all about what you want to do, making the connections once you get to law school and working with your CSO office and law school faculty to identify jobs and clerkships you're interested in and to put forth effort to make that happen.

Are you able/interested in coming to visit? I'd love to show you around or I might be able to put some pictures together of the law school. Also, not sure if you heard we have a new Dean of Admissions. I can put you in touch with her if you'd like (she's fantastic) or you can message me if you want to know more about my experiences here. Good luck!