Seton Hall Full$ v. T30 $ v. probably sticker T14 Forum

[wfudeacons2005]

Good point, I stand corrected then. But, long story short...Vanderbilt is not the "Harvard of the South" and Vanderbilt with a good deal of debt vs. Seton Hall with no debt + ties in New Jersey (and only New Jersey) for a non-BigLaw job is at least open to debate. That was my overall point.

[Linsanity]

Sorry, but you would be absolutely crazy to pass up the opportunity to attend Vanderbilt.

[stillwater]

While the only redeeming feature is its free, Seton Hall is pretty much a toilet.

[madmen]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... +the+south

[bk1]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... +the+south

Who am I to refute a citation to urbandictionary.

[bobbyh1919]

Sorry, but you would be absolutely crazy to pass up the opportunity to attend Vanderbilt.

No you wouldn't. Why Vandy at sticker over UCLA with 20K/year?

OP, I'm not saying you should go to UCLA by any means, just wondering why this guy is pushing so hard for Vandy in this case. While I do love the name (go Knicks), I've questioned your advice in multiple threads now.

[stillwater]

Sorry, but you would be absolutely crazy to pass up the opportunity to attend Vanderbilt.

No you wouldn't. Why Vandy at sticker over UCLA with 20K/year?

OP, I'm not saying you should go to UCLA by any means, just wondering why this guy is pushing so hard for Vandy in this case. While I do love the name (go Knicks), I've questioned your advice in multiple threads now.

Isn't this the same character that said Philly had more/better job opportunities than NYC?

[Onthebrink]

Well my understanding is that it is UCLA at 20 vs. Vandy at 25. Considering UCLA's COL and the east coast ties of the OP I don't think it is ridiculous. My advice would be to continue negotiation and see what happens with t-14. Sorry, I know the waiting really sucks.

[bobbyh1919]

Well my understanding is that it is UCLA at 20 vs. Vandy at 25. Considering UCLA's COL and the east coast ties of the OP I don't think it is ridiculous. My advice would be to continue negotiation and see what happens with t-14. Sorry, I know the waiting really sucks.

That's my bad, didn't realize OP had gotten an updated offer. In that case, Vandy > UCLA for sure.

And yes, Linsanity was the one saying that Philly had more job openings than NYC. And telling kids from Jersey to go to Maryland over Rutgers if they wanted to practice in NJ.

[Linsanity]

I don't have anything against any school. Rutgers is a fine school. But I believe that people should go to the best possible schools that they can. Whether I'm right or wrong, I think RU-Camden will provide more opportunities than RU-Newark, and I think someone should go to Maryland over Rutgers. I would love to go to Maryland (I'm currently waiting to hear back), so maybe I'm bias, but Maryland is a better school. NJ Firms will recognize that.

[stillwater]

I don't have anything against any school. Rutgers is a fine school. But I believe that people should go to the best possible schools that they can. Whether I'm right or wrong, I think RU-Camden will provide more opportunities than RU-Newark, and I think someone should go to Maryland over Rutgers. I would love to go to Maryland (I'm currently waiting to hear back), so maybe I'm bias, but Maryland is a better school. NJ Firms will recognize that.

Well, as you know, Maryland is the Harvard of New Jersey.

[dingbat]

Due to self selection, I think vandy is atleast equal to Fordham in NYC.

No, it isn't
NY big law is
HY -> CCN -> most of the T14* -> Fordham -> the rest of the T20 -> Cardozo (and possibly a few east coast T30 schools) -> everything else (slight plus for Rutgers)

*i don't know how Stanford is considered, due to so few going to NY
Some of the lower T14 (eg Berkeley) have such a small east coast presence that its NY reputation isn't comparable.

[bobbyh1919]

I don't have anything against any school. Rutgers is a fine school. But I believe that people should go to the best possible schools that they can. Whether I'm right or wrong, I think RU-Camden will provide more opportunities than RU-Newark, and I think someone should go to Maryland over Rutgers. I would love to go to Maryland (I'm currently waiting to hear back), so maybe I'm bias, but Maryland is a better school. NJ Firms will recognize that.

Do NJ firms even go to Maryland's OCI? Aren't you essentially saying that NJ firms will take Maryland grads because the odds are they may have had a slightly higher LSAT/GPA? And that this will overcome their doubts about the interviewees leaving NJ in the first place to go to a seemingly random school?

[srfngdd6]

I don't have anything against any school. Rutgers is a fine school. But I believe that people should go to the best possible schools that they can. Whether I'm right or wrong, I think RU-Camden will provide more opportunities than RU-Newark, and I think someone should go to Maryland over Rutgers. I would love to go to Maryland (I'm currently waiting to hear back), so maybe I'm bias, but Maryland is a better school. NJ Firms will recognize that.

dude...no

if you want work in nj going to maryland over rutgers would be stupid

[Linsanity]

1) I'm not from NJ so I have no idea

2) What I'm saying is that people on this board make it sound like NJ Firms view people who go out of state as traitors. Don't think for one second firms don't know Maryland is ranked #40 and RU is like #84. That is a huge difference.

[dingbat]

I don't have anything against any school. Rutgers is a fine school. But I believe that people should go to the best possible schools that they can. Whether I'm right or wrong, I think RU-Camden will provide more opportunities than RU-Newark, and I think someone should go to Maryland over Rutgers. I would love to go to Maryland (I'm currently waiting to hear back), so maybe I'm bias, but Maryland is a better school. NJ Firms will recognize that.

No, they wont. Rutgers has a solid reputation in NJ that far outshines its rankings.
Also, outside of the t30, rankings become meaningless.

As for going to the best school possible, that's a fine sentiment, even if it's not practical, so long as someone else is paying the bill.
I would not pay full price over full scholly unless there is a very big difference (say, HYS over T30.
Maryland isn't worth a penny over Rutgers unless you want to end up in MD.
As for Camden vs Newark, they're the same thing - Rutgers. Nobody in jersey (or anywhere else) cares which Rutgers

To get back on point, op is better off going to seton hall on a full scholly than Vanderbilt at half off, if the goal is to stay in NJ.

[bobbyh1919]

1) I'm not from NJ so I have no idea

2) What I'm saying is that people on this board make it sound like NJ Firms view people who go out of state as traitors. Don't think for one second firms don't know Maryland is ranked #40 and RU is like #84. That is a huge difference.

The people at these NJ firms are largely anyway RU and SHU grads, so I'm sure they're not bowing down to Maryland grads over fellow alumni. The word "traitor" doesn't have anything to do with this. If you live in NJ, get big scholly offers and in state tuition from RU and SHU, and decide to leave for Maryland, this is going to be a huge red flag for any firm in NJ that needs someone whose future they can invest in. I can't say I'd blame them.

If you leave NJ and go to Michigan, Virginia, Duke, etc. I would say it's a different story and your reasons for leaving are pretty evident.

[bk1]

Due to self selection, I think vandy is atleast equal to Fordham in NYC.

No, it isn't
NY big law is
HY -> CCN -> most of the T14* -> Fordham -> the rest of the T20 -> Cardozo (and possibly a few east coast T30 schools) -> everything else (slight plus for Rutgers)

*i don't know how Stanford is considered, due to so few going to NY
Some of the lower T14 (eg Berkeley) have such a small east coast presence that its NY reputation isn't comparable.

This isn't really accurate unless you're using T20 loosely. I'm not sure whether Fordham or Vandy is better in NYC, but I'd put Vandy ahead of its T18 peers (UCLA/UT/USC) in NYC. As noted I'd put the east coast T30's (BU/BC/GW) ahead of the rest, heck I'd probably put them ahead of Fordham. Not sure how I'd put UCLA/UT/USC vs BU/BC/GW.

[crossarmant]

1) I'm not from NJ so I have no idea

2) What I'm saying is that people on this board make it sound like NJ Firms view people who go out of state as traitors. Don't think for one second firms don't know Maryland is ranked #40 and RU is like #84. That is a huge difference.

Not even close to what it's like here in Jersey. Everyone seems to be Rutgers or Seton Hall grads, there's that's who the judges are, that's who the attorneys are, that's who the elected officials are... They may not be nearly as high ranking as Maryland, but to think that low Regional T1 beats Regional T2 in it's home market is asinine.

[dingbat]

Due to self selection, I think vandy is atleast equal to Fordham in NYC.

No, it isn't
NY big law is
HY -> CCN -> most of the T14* -> Fordham -> the rest of the T20 -> Cardozo (and possibly a few east coast T30 schools) -> everything else (slight plus for Rutgers)

*i don't know how Stanford is considered, due to so few going to NY
Some of the lower T14 (eg Berkeley) have such a small east coast presence that its NY reputation isn't comparable.

This isn't really accurate unless you're using T20 loosely. I'm not sure whether Fordham or Vandy is better in NYC, but I'd put Vandy ahead of its T18 peers (UCLA/UT/USC) in NYC. As noted I'd put the east coast T30's (BU/BC/GW) ahead of the rest, heck I'd probably put them ahead of Fordham. Not sure how I'd put UCLA/UT/USC vs BU/BC/GW.

Fordham's placement in NY is certainly better than BU/BC (they place mostly in Boston) and GW (same for DC). UCLA/USC/UT have minimal presence in NY and its probably fair to place them behind Vandy, but I'd find it hard to believe Vandy is on par with Fordham.
The school has a solid reputation and vast, tight-knit alumni network in NY.
(statistics bear this out: while Vandy has better biglaw placement overall, its placement in NY is significantly smaller. Admittedly, part of it is due to self-selection )

[wfudeacons2005]

1) I'm not from NJ so I have no idea

2) What I'm saying is that people on this board make it sound like NJ Firms view people who go out of state as traitors. Don't think for one second firms don't know Maryland is ranked #40 and RU is like #84. That is a huge difference.

I will think that for a second...many seconds in fact.

Don't you understand that unless you go to a T-14ish school, the ONLY way you get jobs is: on-campus interviews, alumni networking, and ties. Maryland offers none of these things if you want to go back to New Jersey. Hell at least if we were talking about places non T-14 places like WashU, UNC and W&M, at least they have reputations as excellent academic institutions. Maybe a there is a really small chance a firm would say, "wow UNC out of state - kid must be smart"...Maryland doesn't even offer that kind of name/brand recognition. It's a thoroughly average state school overall. It would be just as stupid a decision if Maryland was ranked 35th and Rutgers 95th. Public, state-funded law schools (with the exception of the T-14) are meant to overwhelmingly serve their state. Makes sense, no? The Rutgers-Camden>Rutgers-Newark point is literally so indefensible so I'm not even justifying it anymore.

I digress...back to the actual question at hand.

[Linsanity]

Don't you understand that unless you go to a T-14ish school, the ONLY way you get jobs is: on-campus interviews, alumni networking, and ties. Maryland offers none of these things if you want to go back to New Jersey. Hell at least if we were talking about places non T-14 places like WashU, UNC and W&M, at least they have reputations as excellent academic institutions. Maybe a there is a really small chance a firm would say, "wow UNC out of state - kid must be smart"...Maryland doesn't even offer that kind of name/brand recognition. It's a thoroughly average state school overall. It would be just as stupid a decision if Maryland was ranked 35th and Rutgers 95th. Public, state-funded law schools (with the exception of the T-14) are meant to overwhelmingly serve their state. Makes sense, no? The Rutgers-Camden>Rutgers-Newark point is literally so indefensible so I'm not even justifying it anymore.

I digress...back to the actual question at hand.

You're bias because you're going to RU-Newark.

[dingbat]

Don't you understand that unless you go to a T-14ish school, the ONLY way you get jobs is: on-campus interviews, alumni networking, and ties. Maryland offers none of these things if you want to go back to New Jersey. Hell at least if we were talking about places non T-14 places like WashU, UNC and W&M, at least they have reputations as excellent academic institutions. Maybe a there is a really small chance a firm would say, "wow UNC out of state - kid must be smart"...Maryland doesn't even offer that kind of name/brand recognition. It's a thoroughly average state school overall. It would be just as stupid a decision if Maryland was ranked 35th and Rutgers 95th. Public, state-funded law schools (with the exception of the T-14) are meant to overwhelmingly serve their state. Makes sense, no? The Rutgers-Camden>Rutgers-Newark point is literally so indefensible so I'm not even justifying it anymore.

I digress...back to the actual question at hand.

Yea you're an idiot. It's clear your bias because you're going to RU-Newark. Good luck lol

May I suggest that people who are not in or from NJ refrain from talking about employment prospects in NJ?

Seriously, over here Rutgers is better than several of the T14.
Rankings are meaningless when a state school dominates the local market

And no, I do not go to Rutgers

[Gail]

If the Op has ties to NJ, vandy top 1/3 will be likely considerable to seton hall top 10%. Also, vandy gives you a shot at other markets too. You woudn;'t have to appologize for seton hall, but you wouldnt get a job either in anything paying over 50k.

Its more like this-
UVA/Duke>Vandy>>Emory>Wake/WM/WL

Emory and Wake are a lot closer than what you're giving credit for. Not because Wake is that good, but because Emory has really dropped.


Anyways, OP. If you have no UG debt and won't be taking up any debt (that means COL) for Seton Hall, I think that would be a fine choice for you.

[bk1]

Fordham's placement in NY is certainly better than BU/BC (they place mostly in Boston) and GW (same for DC). UCLA/USC/UT have minimal presence in NY and its probably fair to place them behind Vandy, but I'd find it hard to believe Vandy is on par with Fordham.
The school has a solid reputation and vast, tight-knit alumni network in NY.
(statistics bear this out: while Vandy has better biglaw placement overall, its placement in NY is significantly smaller. Admittedly, part of it is due to self-selection )

Oh I wasn't trying to say that BU/BC/GW were better than Fordham, but that they were significantly better than other non-Fordham T30's.