UT or GULC at sticker vs. WUSTL (114k) Forum

[romothesavior]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

It's an opinion backed up by very questionable numbers. You don't get to say stupid stuff and then hide behind "Well that's just like... your opinion, man."

[blink]

Yes it does. It means you have to think of the big picture here. Okay I am putting this to rest now. Avg starting salary for GULC is 160,000 adjust for taxes and you get 112,000. WUSTL avg starting salary is 95,000 adjust for taxes and you get 66,500. For GULC you start at -200,000, but after 10 years your PROFIT is 920,000 vs. WUSTL of 665,000 with no debt. GULC> WUSTL

1800 posts? Yous trollin.

Agreed. Please don't tell me, msblaw89, that you 1) assume biglaw from Georgetown or 2) buy into the steaming hot heap of BS that is the "average starting salary." C'mon man!!!

[msblaw89]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

It's an opinion backed up by very questionable numbers. You don't get to say stupid stuff and then hide behind "Well that's just like... your opinion, man."

It's not like I made them up... maybe the schools did. They are the stated avg starting salaries by both schools own websites. For the debate we are having, I thought it was only logical to use the avg salary vs. 25th or 75th

[bk1]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

Considering I am struggling to believe someone with almost 2000 posts is actually quoting the median salaries that schools publish for any sort of reasonable argument.

[bk1]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

It's an opinion backed up by very questionable numbers. You don't get to say stupid stuff and then hide behind "Well that's just like... your opinion, man."

It's not like I made them up... maybe the schools did. They are the stated avg starting salaries by both schools own websites. For the debate we are having, I thought it was only logical to use the avg salary vs. 25th or 75th

notsureifsrs

[romothesavior]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

It's an opinion backed up by very questionable numbers. You don't get to say stupid stuff and then hide behind "Well that's just like... your opinion, man."

It's not like I made them up... maybe the schools did.

How have you been on TLS for this long and not learned this yet?

[blink]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

It's an opinion backed up by very questionable numbers. You don't get to say stupid stuff and then hide behind "Well that's just like... your opinion, man."

It's not like I made them up... maybe the schools did. They are the stated avg starting salaries by both schools own websites. For the debate we are having, I thought it was only logical to use the avg salary vs. 25th or 75th

facepalm.jpg

[msblaw89]

Considering I haven't even started law school yet? Nor am I likely to go to GULC? Look, it is just an opinion and I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.

Considering I am struggling to believe someone with almost 2000 posts is actually quoting the median salaries that schools publish for any sort of reasonable argument.

To each their own. I think there are many viable reasons to attend GULC at sticker/close to it vs. a large scholarship at a non t14. UNLESS PI

[msblaw89]

Of course, there are many other factors. If you already have debt, if you have a SO who can get work in St. Louis, personal preferences etc. which would make WUSTL a much better option. But debt alone ... I would still chose GULC

[bk1]

To each their own. I think there are many viable reasons to attend GULC at sticker/close to it vs. a large scholarship at a non t14. UNLESS PI

You are dense as fuck. This has nothing to do with what I said.

[dissonance1848]

What the fuck was up with that Payscale mid-career salary list. Definitely was Pre-ITE. Now, a bunch of those schools would have way lower mid-career paths for graduates.

[thexfactor]

I know this is a very personal decision, but I'm interested to see what people think.

I'm in at GULC and UT, but I doubt I'll get anything meaningful from GULC, and I'm one point below UT's LSAT floor for scholarships. I'm sure I could negotiate a little something at each, but nothing to make it worth it. As far as other schools, I have 114k at WUSTL, 66k at BU and 66k at UCI. I'm from California, and want to end up there eventually, but I'm not dead set on ending up there right away. My savings could pay off the remaining 8k per year at WUSTL, so I would be graduating from a T-20 school debt free, and would have lots more freedom with where I wanted to work.

I was WL'ed at UCLA, will probably get in to USC, and held at NU. Rejected at a few T-10's.

The way I look at it, I can get an almost free JD at fairly prestigious school, find a job wherever a good one comes up post-graduation, and then make a lateral move to somewhere I want to end up for the long term after 3-4 years of working. I know lots of attorneys who have done this.

For those that might endorse UCI, I don't think I'll go there, because I'm not the type of person that wants to "blaze his own trail." I prefer the structure that the already established schools can offer, rather than UCI who says they'll let you start up whatever clinics, clubs, opportunities you want.

Caveat: My other side wants to make sure I go T-14. I think GULC would be an amazing experience, but graduating with ~200k in debt sounds horrible. I have had people tell me that graduating from a T-14 school opens doors that couldn't be opened otherwise, but I don't want to be a slave to debt for the next 15 years. I'm a very good interviewer, have full-time work experience, and am confident I'll find something post graduation. With no debt, I'm free to pursue lots of different opportunities. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with WUSTL, unless USC/UCLA were to offer a great scholarship, which doesn't seem likely. Thoughts?

TL;DR version: WUSTL graduating with no debt > sticker at UT or GULC?

Edit: Added poll.

georgetown all the way. The placement difference between the two schools are just simply too large to ignore even with 100k. IBR and PSLF should make your decision feel much better. However, the placement of georgetown is 2x better than WUSTL. Regardless of midlaw/biglaw/clerkship/good PI jobs/Fed jobs, they are all extremely competitive to get. WUSTL only places roughly 20% in nlj250 firms as compared to 4x% at georgetown.
Also, given that you want to work in california, WUSTL woudln't really get you there unless you are in the top 10%-20%.

[romothesavior]

SBL (a wise old TLS moderator) just said something in another thread that I think bears repeating here:

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. If OP hates big firm work, he'll have no choice but to stick it out for as long as possible with his soul-crushing GULC debt.

[Mr. Somebody]

So what is the "fun" option if not big law given that mid law firms are hard to get and pi/gov jobs are even harder?

I'm taking Georgetown at sticker because worst case scenario to me is working in some miserable shitlaw firm and anything that significantly minimizes that is worth forgoing a large scholarship. I'm not a k-jd but between having a shitlaw job with debt or with no debt, both scenarios sound horrifying

[Paul Campos]

So what is the "fun" option if not big law given that mid law firms are hard to get and pi/gov jobs are even harder?

I'm taking Georgetown at sticker because worst case scenario to me is working in some miserable shitlaw firm and anything that significantly minimizes that is worth forgoing a large scholarship. I'm not a k-jd but between having a shitlaw job with debt or with no debt, both scenarios sound horrifying

It's not the Army. If you graduate with no debt and can't get a law job that doesn't make you want to kill yourself you can hit the re-set button and do something else. With $150K-$200K in non-dischargeable debt your options are ALL bad, unless you actually WANT to work for a big firm, can actually get that job (half of GULC can't), and can hold onto it long enough to pay down the debt.

[Mr. Somebody]

So what is the "fun" option if not big law given that mid law firms are hard to get and pi/gov jobs are even harder?

I'm taking Georgetown at sticker because worst case scenario to me is working in some miserable shitlaw firm and anything that significantly minimizes that is worth forgoing a large scholarship. I'm not a k-jd but between having a shitlaw job with debt or with no debt, both scenarios sound horrifying

It's not the Army. If you graduate with no debt and can't get a law job that doesn't make you want to kill yourself you can hit the re-set button and do something else. With $150K-$200K in non-dischargeable debt your options are ALL bad, unless you actually WANT to work for a big firm, can actually get that job (half of GULC can't), and can hold onto it long enough to pay down the debt.

Right but I think for a lot of us having a successful legal career is an important goal. This is really down to personal preference and risk aversion. If you really want it then you are willing to take on greater risk if things don't go the way you planned in exchange for a higher chance of success. Its a tradeoff

[moneybagsphd]

WUSTL and it's not close.

[thexfactor]

SBL (a wise old TLS moderator) just said something in another thread that I think bears repeating here:

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. If OP hates big firm work, he'll have no choice but to stick it out for as long as possible with his soul-crushing GULC debt.

The problem is at a T1 non T14 school, he might not get to know whether or not he hates biglaw work lol.
T14 will give you the most options.

Georgetown all the way here... Not even close.
WUSTL will still cost you roughly 50-80k. High chance of getting median pwned at wustl.

Rather pay 100k more at GULC to get a 20-30% buffer zone.

You also have to consider the quality of biglaw firms too. GULC places in better firms.

There are plenty of people at wustl who gambled with a 1/2+ scholarship over t14 that regret it now.

[msblaw89]

SBL (a wise old TLS moderator) just said something in another thread that I think bears repeating here:

People should also keep in mind that biglaw isn't fun. Most people only do it for a few years to pay off loans, so really, TCR is T14, scholarship, or don't go. If you can go to law school for free or close to it, you wipe out the need to bother with biglaw in the first place.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. If OP hates big firm work, he'll have no choice but to stick it out for as long as possible with his soul-crushing GULC debt.

The problem is at a T1 non T14 school, he might not get to know whether or not he hates biglaw work lol.
T14 will give you the most options.

Thank you

[bk1]

The problem is at a T1 non T14 school, he might not get to know whether or not he hates biglaw work lol.
T14 will give you the most options.

Georgetown all the way here... Not even close.
WUSTL will still cost you roughly 50-80k. High chance of getting median pwned at wustl.

Rather pay 100k more at GULC to get a 20-30% buffer zone.

You also have to consider the quality of biglaw firms too. GULC places in better firms.

There are plenty of people at wustl who gambled with a 1/2+ scholarship over t14 that regret it now.

I mean this is one rationale, but you're ignoring the risk that is inherent with GULC. There are plenty of people at GULC who gambled with sticker over 1/2+ scholarship at a T1 that regret it now.

[romothesavior]

The problem is at a T1 non T14 school, he might not get to know whether or not he hates biglaw work lol.
T14 will give you the most options.

What makes a school like WUSTL a tough option is the cost, which is hard to handle with our poor biglaw placement. A free degree from WUSTL is not a bad option. It's not like people don't get jobs here. Will he get something at OCI? Probably not, based on our NLJ numbers. Will he wind up completely unemployed? It is certainly possible, but not likely.

Both the best case and worst case scenarios are in WUSTL's favor. Worst case at either school? Unemployment. Better to have no debt than tons of it if you're unemployed. Best case at either school? A well-paying job. Difference is, he'll have little or no loan payments after law school form WUSTL. In the middle of the class is where Georgetown starts to pay off. He'll have much better biglaw odds at median from Georgetown than he will at WUSTL (virtually no shot with median at WUSTL, although I know a few people with slightly above median grades and NLJ jobs). But at least he won't need biglaw from WUSTL. If he's median at Georgetown and strikes out, he's totally screwed.

Law school has made me a lot of things, but it's mostly made me debt-averse. Maybe that's a personal thing, but the difference in cost here is just so big that I think it makes WUSTL an objectively better decision. If we were comparing a school like Chicago with WUSTL, then I'm in your camp for sure. But to go from 25% odds at biglaw to maybe a coin flip isn't worth six-figs to me.

[romothesavior]

Thank you

He may take the same side as you on this debate, but I doubt he finds your posts ITT any less uninformed than the rest of us. 2k posts and 5 months on TLS and you still don't have a clue.

[titan747]

Some of the posters act like an extra 100-200k is nothing... Interest accumulates fairly quickly on student loans ... Ever thought about what you would do if you went to gulc at sticker and didn't get big law or if you got it and hated it??? You would be beholden to your creditors and job... Wustl is the only logical choice... Debt severely limits freedom...

[msblaw89]

Thank you

He may take the same side as you on this debate, but I doubt he finds your posts ITT any less uninformed than the rest of us. 2k posts and 5 months on TLS and you still don't have a clue.

Well, I suppose you have two years on me. I only hope to be as informed as you are in 2013.

[Mr. Somebody]

Thank you

He may take the same side as you on this debate, but I doubt he finds your posts ITT any less uninformed than the rest of us. 2k posts and 5 months on TLS and you still don't have a clue.

Well, I suppose you have two years on me. I only hope to be as informed as you are in 2013.

Georgetown's salary stats ARE sketchy though. Less than half the class of 2009 are employed and reporting their salary.