Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn? Forum

[5ky]

Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.

Respectfully, our argument seems to have a lot of holes in it. I'm confused about your confusion.

This is my basic argument:

Say I'm a 0L. I had a horrible childhood, and thus all I want in the whole wide world is to cash in my preftige points and work at a V10 in NYC after graduation. I want to go to the school that maximizes this chance. I look at the information in the 2012 summer thread. I see that CLS put 20% of students in NYC V10s, with three firms not yet reported. I think to myself, this is quite good -- I know for a fact I don't have to finish in the top 20% to be competitive. Top third to have an excellent chance, from the numbers. I will not have locked myself out at median, in all likelihood.

I look at the thread and the numbers for Chicago. They have placed around 5% of students in NYC V10s, with 5 firms not yet reported (S&C and Cleary have numbers for CLS, but not Chicago -- so this is still imperfect, but that's part of it). I understand that many Chicago students self-select out of NYC, and while I do not understand it because the only thing that will make me happy is NYC V10, I take that into consideration. But I don't know how many students self-selected out, so extrapolating out where in the class I can finish and still be competitive for NYC V10 is much more difficult with the increase in unknown variables. On the one hand is the presumption that perhaps V10 firms want a diverse class, and thus will take any Chicago students they can get. On the other hand, I am going to school outside of NYC, and that might put me at a slight disadvantage relative to students from CLS/NYU.

I do not know how to weigh these different factors. There is no way for me to make an objective conclusion that Chicago is a better choice to fulfill my life's dream because I do not have enough information to make this choice. I choose CLS.

[IAFG]

Well that's slightly different than what you've said before, but to confirm what we're saying (that UChi students self-select to DC and Chicago) you would also need to see their placement in prestigious firms in DC and Chicago. For many law students, DC is the real golden ring, and NY V10 is not the ultimate source of "prestige points."

But, I agree with booboo, these schools are all competitive with each other at these firms, so if it helps you sleep better at night, obviously CLS is the way to go.

[irie]

I think competitive down to median is stretching it for CLS/NYU. Sure there are the extraordinary that can overcome the usual grade barriers a firm puts up (because, of course, law school is supposed to be a judgment tool), but the norm is that for a V10, you better be within the top 20% or so to be at least competitive (assuming you are the average Jane).

I assure you that (this year at least) at CLS you did not need to be 20% to be competitive for V10. I think people put more emphasis on grades than is the reality. I know several people--myself included--that have no remarkable backgrounds and grades outside the Stone range (which is 28% btw) and received several v10 offers. The amount of people in the top 20% of the class who self select out of the V10 is a lot more than you might think.

[5ky]

Well that's slightly different than what you've said before, but to confirm what we're saying (that UChi students self-select to DC and Chicago) you would also need to see their placement in prestigious firms in DC and Chicago. For many law students, DC is the real golden ring, and NY V10 is not the ultimate source of "prestige points."

But, I agree with booboo, these schools are all competitive with each other at these firms, so if it helps you sleep better at night, obviously CLS is the way to go.

Well, I started all my posts with the hypothetical that I was a 0L insisting on NYC V10, which was the point of this thread, and makes the references to DC and Chicago top firms somewhat immaterial.

My whole point is that people say stuff like the bolded, and maybe it's true, but I've yet to see actual proof of it. I'm just looking at the numbers.

[Anonymous User]

Well that's slightly different than what you've said before, but to confirm what we're saying (that UChi students self-select to DC and Chicago) you would also need to see their placement in prestigious firms in DC and Chicago. For many law students, DC is the real golden ring, and NY V10 is not the ultimate source of "prestige points."

But, I agree with booboo, these schools are all competitive with each other at these firms, so if it helps you sleep better at night, obviously CLS is the way to go.

Well, I started all my posts with the hypothetical that I was a 0L insisting on NYC V10, which was the point of this thread, and makes the references to DC and Chicago top firms somewhat immaterial.

My whole point is that people say stuff like the bolded, and maybe it's true, but I've yet to see actual proof of it. I'm just looking at the numbers.

Yeah. I mean, the detailed employment data released by UChi and NYU suggests that the former only holds a placement advantage in the Midwest.

[5ky]

Well that's slightly different than what you've said before, but to confirm what we're saying (that UChi students self-select to DC and Chicago) you would also need to see their placement in prestigious firms in DC and Chicago. For many law students, DC is the real golden ring, and NY V10 is not the ultimate source of "prestige points."

But, I agree with booboo, these schools are all competitive with each other at these firms, so if it helps you sleep better at night, obviously CLS is the way to go.

Well, I started all my posts with the hypothetical that I was a 0L insisting on NYC V10, which was the point of this thread, and makes the references to DC and Chicago top firms somewhat immaterial.

My whole point is that people say stuff like the bolded, and maybe it's true, but I've yet to see actual proof of it. I'm just looking at the numbers.

Yeah. I mean, the detailed employment data released by UChi and NYU suggests that the former only holds a placement advantage in the Midwest.

That's not really my point, my point is just that if UChicago puts around 10% of its class in NYC V10, there's really no way of knowing how well you have to do at Chicago to be competitive for V10. You can look at CLS and see that top 1/3 is an excellent chance. But you can't do the same for Chicago, because students are off self-selecting to other cities. You just don't know where that 10% is coming from -- maybe it is up and down the top third/median, but it's impossible to tell from an outsider's perspective. It makes CLS a safer bet from a lack of knowledge standpoint.

[IAFG]

Isn't the whole point of TLS to get insights beyond the first-blush impression of the numbers?

[Flash]

Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi shouldn't be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.

So you have trouble believing that people who chose Chicago over NYU and Columbia would also choose to work in Chicago rather than NYC?

[5ky]

Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi shouldn't be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.

So you have trouble believing that people who chose Chicago over NYU and Columbia would also choose to work in Chicago rather than NYC?

No, of course not. But that doesn't tell me anything about where the 8-10% or whatever it is of students who end up in NYC V10s finished in the class after 1L.

[Anonymous User]

Well that's slightly different than what you've said before, but to confirm what we're saying (that UChi students self-select to DC and Chicago) you would also need to see their placement in prestigious firms in DC and Chicago. For many law students, DC is the real golden ring, and NY V10 is not the ultimate source of "prestige points."

But, I agree with booboo, these schools are all competitive with each other at these firms, so if it helps you sleep better at night, obviously CLS is the way to go.

Well, I started all my posts with the hypothetical that I was a 0L insisting on NYC V10, which was the point of this thread, and makes the references to DC and Chicago top firms somewhat immaterial.

My whole point is that people say stuff like the bolded, and maybe it's true, but I've yet to see actual proof of it. I'm just looking at the numbers.

Yeah. I mean, the detailed employment data released by UChi and NYU suggests that the former only holds a placement advantage in the Midwest.

That's not really my point, my point is just that if UChicago puts around 10% of its class in NYC V10, there's really no way of knowing how well you have to do at Chicago to be competitive for V10. You can look at CLS and see that top 1/3 is an excellent chance. But you can't do the same for Chicago, because students are off self-selecting to other cities. You just don't know where that 10% is coming from -- maybe it is up and down the top third/median, but it's impossible to tell from an outsider's perspective. It makes CLS a safer bet from a lack of knowledge standpoint.

The top 10 percent at UChicago automatically grades onto law review (a third of law review wrote on, and I get a sense that a lot of the write-on people were generally at least in the top 20 percent range). So we do have a sense of where the top 10 percent or so are going. For the Law Review members of the class of 2012, roughly 33 percent went to Chicago, roughly 25 percent went DC, and then the rest are split between New York and California (around 21 percent for each location).

I'm pretty sure that some people who were around the bottom third at UChicago had multiple V10 callbacks, and I know a couple people around median (with no extraordinary backgrounds) who had V5 offers. And the top of the class at UChicago spreads out pretty significantly. It's just insanely difficult to compare a school like that to one like Columbia or NYU.

[5ky]

The top 10 percent at UChicago automatically grades onto law review (a third of law review wrote on, and I get a sense that a lot of the write-on people were generally at least in the top 20 percent range). So we do have a sense of where the top 10 percent or so are going. For the Law Review members of the class of 2012, roughly 33 percent went to Chicago, roughly 25 percent went DC, and then the rest are split between New York and California (around 21 percent for each location).

I'm pretty sure that some people who were around the bottom third at UChicago had multiple V10 callbacks, and I know a couple people around median (with no extraordinary backgrounds) who had V5 offers. And the top of the class at UChicago spreads out pretty significantly. It's just insanely difficult to compare a school like that to one like Columbia or NYU.

I was actually referring to the 10% of UChicago students who end up at NYC V10, not the top 10% of students, but this is more what I was looking for, thanks.

[Anonymous User]

The top 10 percent at UChicago automatically grades onto law review (a third of law review wrote on, and I get a sense that a lot of the write-on people were generally at least in the top 20 percent range). So we do have a sense of where the top 10 percent or so are going. For the Law Review members of the class of 2012, roughly 33 percent went to Chicago, roughly 25 percent went DC, and then the rest are split between New York and California (around 21 percent for each location).

I'm pretty sure that some people who were around the bottom third at UChicago had multiple V10 callbacks, and I know a couple people around median (with no extraordinary backgrounds) who had V5 offers. And the top of the class at UChicago spreads out pretty significantly. It's just insanely difficult to compare a school like that to one like Columbia or NYU.

I was actually referring to the 10% of UChicago students who end up at NYC V10, not the top 10% of students, but this is more what I was looking for, thanks.

So roughly 10 percent of UChicago students go to a NYC V10 and only 20 percent of the class generally goes to NYC (this seems to hold true for the top 10 to 20 percent, and statistically, that's what it is for the class as a whole)?

[Anonymous User]

For the Law Review members of the class of 2012, roughly 33 percent went to Chicago, roughly 25 percent went DC, and then the rest are split between New York and California (around 21 percent for each location).

This is probably even a little atypical. My year (pre-ITE), I can only think of one coif person who went to NYC (Wachtell). Most clerked and then split into thirds -- a third stayed in Chicago (almost all at KSM or Barlit), a third went to DC (lots to firms, some to bigfed), and a third went elsewhere. Of the "elsewhere," I'd even guess that the lion's share went to CA and not NYC.

Though a lot of this may be the nature of the beast. The top 10% LR types are much more likely to go the litigation route, and the V10 hierarchy matters a lot less in that sphere. (For example, you could easily make the argument that Kirkland and W&C and WH and Quinn and Boies and GDC and Paul Weiss are superior -- and more prestigious -- litigation shops to anything in the V10 except maybe Wachtell.)

[Anonymous User]

For the Law Review members of the class of 2012, roughly 33 percent went to Chicago, roughly 25 percent went DC, and then the rest are split between New York and California (around 21 percent for each location).

This is probably even a little atypical. My year (pre-ITE), I can only think of one coif person who went to NYC (Wachtell). Most clerked and then split into thirds -- a third stayed in Chicago (almost all at KSM or Barlit), a third went to DC (lots to firms, some to bigfed), and a third went elsewhere. Of the "elsewhere," I'd even guess that the lion's share went to CA and not NYC.

Though a lot of this may be the nature of the beast. The top 10% LR types are much more likely to go the litigation route, and the V10 hierarchy matters a lot less in that sphere. (For example, you could easily make the argument that Kirkland and W&C and WH and Quinn and Boies and GDC and Paul Weiss are superior -- and more prestigious -- litigation shops to anything in the V10 except maybe Wachtell.)

I agree that it is atypical. This year (C/O 2013), it seems like everybody I've talked to is doing a DC firm like W&C / Kellogg / etc, a California firm like Quinn / Keker / Munger / etc, a Texas firm like Susman, or a Chicago firm like Kirkland / Sidley. I think a couple are doing Wachtell, and a couple more are doing NYC V5. It really seems like the Law Review folks are generally not attracted to NYC.

[Anonymous User]

It really seems like the Law Review folks are generally not attracted to NYC.

I have a theory on this. It is that you do Wachtell if you can get it, if only for the $$$. If you can't get it, the modest difference in comp between KSM (mostly all due to lockstep bonuses) and NYC market is more than made up for by COL. (I'd say "and lower hours," but associates at Kirkland and Sidley bill more in Chicago than NYC, or at least they did.)

[bdubs]

It really seems like the Law Review folks are generally not attracted to NYC.

I have a theory on this. It is that you do Wachtell if you can get it, if only for the $$$. If you can't get it, the modest difference in comp between KSM (mostly all due to lockstep bonuses) and NYC market is more than made up for by COL. (I'd say "and lower hours," but associates at Kirkland and Sidley bill more in Chicago than NYC, or at least they did.)

Doesn't Kirkland pay bonuses that are significantly larger than Cravath scale? I don't see why anyone wouldn't take Kirkland in Chicago over any non-Wachtell V10 if all that mattered was $$$. A dollar in the Chicago housing market is worth three in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

A dollar in the Chicago housing market is worth three in NYC.

Fair point on the K&E bonuses. I was thinking more SA and MB. And even those can go over NYC market if you bill 2400+. (Moreso at Sidley -- I think Mayer caps bonuses at that point).

But the quote is a bit of an overstatement. Your standard 2/2 in a decent (not Gold Coast, but not Rogers Park) neighborhood in Chicago is going to run what, $1800-$2000 a month? And it will probably be in the $3500-$4000 range in a comparable part of Manhattan?

Point is, the Chicago housing dollar is only worth $2 in NYC.

[IAFG]

A dollar in the Chicago housing market is worth three in NYC.

Fair point on the K&E bonuses. I was thinking more SA and MB. And even those can go over NYC market if you bill 2400+. (Moreso at Sidley -- I think Mayer caps bonuses at that point).

But the quote is a bit of an overstatement. Your standard 2/2 in a decent (not Gold Coast, but not Rogers Park) neighborhood in Chicago is going to run what, $1800-$2000 a month? And it will probably be in the $3500-$4000 range in a comparable part of Manhattan?

Point is, the Chicago housing dollar is only worth $2 in NYC.

$2k in Rogers Park?! I think not.

[Anonymous User]

A dollar in the Chicago housing market is worth three in NYC.

Fair point on the K&E bonuses. I was thinking more SA and MB. And even those can go over NYC market if you bill 2400+. (Moreso at Sidley -- I think Mayer caps bonuses at that point).

But the quote is a bit of an overstatement. Your standard 2/2 in a decent (not Gold Coast, but not Rogers Park) neighborhood in Chicago is going to run what, $1800-$2000 a month? And it will probably be in the $3500-$4000 range in a comparable part of Manhattan?

Point is, the Chicago housing dollar is only worth $2 in NYC.

If 2/2 is 2BR 2BA, then you need to up your NYC price to $4500+ for a livable area. One of the many reasons why I might try to move from V5 to Chicago during 3LOLCI.

[bdubs]

A dollar in the Chicago housing market is worth three in NYC.

Fair point on the K&E bonuses. I was thinking more SA and MB. And even those can go over NYC market if you bill 2400+. (Moreso at Sidley -- I think Mayer caps bonuses at that point).

But the quote is a bit of an overstatement. Your standard 2/2 in a decent (not Gold Coast, but not Rogers Park) neighborhood in Chicago is going to run what, $1800-$2000 a month? And it will probably be in the $3500-$4000 range in a comparable part of Manhattan?

Point is, the Chicago housing dollar is only worth $2 in NYC.

3 to 1 might be a bit of an exaggeration, but NYC housing is ridiculous.

[Anonymous User]

$2k in Rogers Park?! I think not.

I said NOT Rogers Park.

Speaking of, and this is totally off topic, but if any U of Cers know of a 3+ bedroom place in Hyde Park in the Ray School boundaries (so basically Woodlawn to the Metra, and 53rd down to 60th), with a late summer or early fall availability, post contact info. I'll pay a reasonable finders fee. Long story.

[IAFG]

$2k in Rogers Park?! I think not.

I said NOT Rogers Park.

Speaking of, and this is totally off topic, but if any U of Cers know of a 3+ bedroom place in Hyde Park in the Ray School boundaries (so basically Woodlawn to the Metra, and 53rd down to 60th), with a late summer or early fall availability, post contact info. I'll pay a reasonable finders fee. Long story.

Ohhh so you did, my mistake.

[skers]

It should also be noted that making any conclusions based on the incomplete data we have now is retarded.

[IAFG]

It should also be noted that making any conclusions based on the incomplete data we have now is retarded.

Really? How often in life do you have complete data? Our conclusions are, to be certain, imperfect, but I'd hardly call it "retarded."

[moneybagsphd]

"Amory Blaine inherited every trait from his mother every trait, except the stray inexpressible few, that made him worthwhile."