Cornell v. Michigan - NYC Biglaw Forum

[MachineLemon]

Don't forget U Mich's new LRAP.

--LinkRemoved--

[CanadianWolf]

This is one situation in which it's okay to pick the more beautiful law school.

[quakeroats]

Cornell. Michigan's issues collecting employment data (among many other issues) should be construed against them: --LinkRemoved--

[crabcakes]

Cornell. Michigan's issues collecting employment data (among many other issues) should be construed against them: --LinkRemoved--

uh ohhhh

[charliep]

Cornell. Michigan's issues collecting employment data (among many other issues) should be construed against them: --LinkRemoved--

uh ohhhh

i'm going to erase this article from my memory....now. oh, hey, guys. u excited about law school ?

[keg411]

Cornell. Michigan's issues collecting employment data (among many other issues) should be construed against them: --LinkRemoved--

uh ohhhh

i'm going to erase this article from my memory....now. oh, hey, guys. u excited about law school ?

People in the c/o 2013 at Michigan did very very well at OCI if it makes you all feel any better.

To the OP: visit both, see if you get any $$$ (because it would be nice to your parents) and then make a decision. I personally picked Michigan over Cornell for NYC BigLaw, but I was a transfer, so it was a totally different situation (transfers at Cornell were not allowed to do the big NYC job fair).

[ahduth]

Cornell. Michigan's issues collecting employment data (among many other issues) should be construed against them: --LinkRemoved--

Talk to us a bit about Cornell's effectiveness in collecting data. This debate intrigues me now that the site's official anti-Michigan troll is involved.

[griffy]

um... shouldn't you choose the school thats actually in new york?

[CanadianWolf]

Only a clear choice if the law school was Columbia or NYU; otherwise, Michigan versus Cornell for NYC biglaw is a close call.

[keg411]

um... shouldn't you choose the school thats actually in new york?

Doesn't really matter. A lot of people at Michigan go NYC BigLaw.

[elmagic]

If you are interested in NYC Biglaw, I'd go choose Cornell. Cornell placed second only to UChicago in the NLJ250 which was for 2010, and the most recent data point. However, ATL ran that leak on Cornell's class of 2011 numbers and although down still close to 50% SA.

I think the choice is close, but the reason why I would pick Cornell is because it seems like Michigan and schools like Virginia and Vanderbilt are able to pad their numbers by including people who got jobs in secondary markets which some people call "regional biglaw". While a lot of people would love to work in these areas and don't mind the pay cut, an interesting comparison for someone like the OP would be how many of Michigan's students place in NYC market paying biglaw, compared to Cornell which appears to place almost exclusively in NYC market paying biglaw.

Also as an anecdote, a buddy of mine from ug is a 1L and apparently Cornell's class of 2013 placed 80% in SA this past oci, but take that, along with all info, with a grain of salt.

[griffy]

But isn't cornells purpose to send students to nyc; michigan does as well, but I always heard of it as a chicago/midwest school. Being from the east coast, it always seemed that cornell would be ahead on this one.

I guess I just don't understand how this poll could be so lopsided; I still think cornell is the better choice, but at the very least, they have to be even.

[elmagic]

But isn't cornells purpose to send students to nyc; michigan does as well, but I always heard of it as a chicago/midwest school. Being from the east coast, it always seemed that cornell would be ahead on this one.

I guess I just don't understand how this poll could be so lopsided; I still think cornell is the better choice, but at the very least, they have to be even.

Polls like this show you a few of the things that are wrong with TLS. I bet the majority of voter's are 0L's who are going off nothing but rankings, whereas if you read the actual comments you'll get a clearer picture.

[ahduth]

I guess I just don't understand how this poll could be so lopsided; I still think cornell is the better choice, but at the very least, they have to be even.

I think the Michigan name just holds more cachet - people don't think top shelf law school when they read Cornell, whereas Michigan historically has been at the very top.

I dunno about these arguments about placement. Cornell dumps virtually everyone into the NYC market; my impression was that NYC firms liked seeing some diversity (read: Stanford, Chicago, Michigan, etc.). I'm sure that varies from firm to firm though. I'm also reading nothing into those class of 2010 NLJ250 numbers - OCI in 2008 was the world's biggest outlier for any of this business.

[IAFG]

I guess I just don't understand how this poll could be so lopsided; I still think cornell is the better choice, but at the very least, they have to be even.

I think the Michigan name just holds more cachet - people don't think top shelf law school when they read Cornell, whereas Michigan historically has been at the very top.

I dunno about these arguments about placement. Cornell dumps virtually everyone into the NYC market; my impression was that NYC firms liked seeing some diversity (read: Stanford, Chicago, Michigan, etc.). I'm sure that varies from firm to firm though. I'm also reading nothing into those class of 2010 NLJ250 numbers - OCI in 2008 was the world's biggest outlier for any of this business.

I doubt TLS is going off of 1970s rankings.

Even when you average out years across the tiers to weaken outliers, you see the schools are largely equivalent. The poll is flawed in that it assumes one is better than the other. Any uninformed 0L band-wagoner can jump in with their knowledge of the HYS-CCN-MVPB-DCNG tiers (which, mind you, are about admissions selectivity and not placement strength) and click on Michigan.

[ahduth]

I guess I just don't understand how this poll could be so lopsided; I still think cornell is the better choice, but at the very least, they have to be even.

I think the Michigan name just holds more cachet - people don't think top shelf law school when they read Cornell, whereas Michigan historically has been at the very top.

I dunno about these arguments about placement. Cornell dumps virtually everyone into the NYC market; my impression was that NYC firms liked seeing some diversity (read: Stanford, Chicago, Michigan, etc.). I'm sure that varies from firm to firm though. I'm also reading nothing into those class of 2010 NLJ250 numbers - OCI in 2008 was the world's biggest outlier for any of this business.

I doubt TLS is going off of 1970s rankings.

Even when you average out years across the tiers to weaken outliers, you see the schools are largely equivalent. The poll is flawed in that it assumes one is better than the other. Any uninformed 0L band-wagoner can jump in with their knowledge of the HYS-CCN-MVPB-DCNG tiers (which, mind you, are about admissions selectivity and not placement strength) and click on Michigan.

Fair enough, TLS definitely doesn't know it's ass from a hole in the ground.

I'm guessing at one time there were more big name partners out there from Michigan than Cornell, however. Not sure how many of them are lingering on.

[crabcakes]

some great points on here. thanks for all the comments, everyone!

[GMVarun]

If the only concern is what school maximizes your chance at NYC biglaw, Cornell and Michigan are very similar schools (with a few below mentioned caveats).

(1) Of all the markets we send people to, we send the most to NYC. It is a significantly large percentage of Michigan students. See Michigan Career Services website.

(2) Outside of Wachtell (which, I think, does not OCI at Cornell either) and Boies, the entire V20 OCIed at Michigan. Plus a whole host of other (NYC and non-NYC) firms. I am simply using V20 to note that essentially all of the biggest NYC firms with the largest SA classes come to Michigan. The smaller ones also come. Any NYC firm that is available to a Cornell student is available to Michigan student. Even if some random one does not OCI here, you could just as well as mass-mailed them to similar success. Furthermore, some bigger NYC firms made a push to get even more Michigan students this past OCI. See ATL.

(3) With that said, Michigan's strength is that we send people to different markets. I know people going to DC, NYC, LA, SF, Chicago, Dallas and many other secondary markets. Our alumni network is very widespread. Because we are not all going the same place (nor do we want to be), we are relatively less in a direct competition for the same NYC Biglaw slots. That means if you want NYC, and you bid wisely, you will very likely have plenty of NYC firms to interview among.

(4) As others have indicated, I think a particular NYC firm's grade cutoffs for Michigan and Cornell are going to be very similar. I have not seen Cornell's but I would be shocked if there was a significant difference.

Among these two schools, the decision should not be made about maximizing hypothesized biglaw chances (especially not if you want NYC). Instead, think about where you want to spend the next three years and the associated costs. Michigan is very open in negotiating scholarships so keep that in mind as well.

[bogart]

Great points...but Cornell's still better.

[LawSchoolChampion]

I obviously have some bias regarding this, since I attend Cornell. But we do very, very well in NYC BigLaw. If that's what you want, I think Cornell is the better choice. If you want anything/anywhere else, choose Michigan (with the exception of Boston, where Cornell also places well for a non-Boston school, but why anyone wants to move there is beyond me). Michigan's alumni community and Govt/PI reach is wider outside NYC than Cornell's. I have friends there who loved it, and who did very well and got what they wanted in terms of firms/clerkships. But to illustrate with an anecdote, there are more Cornell grads than Michigan grads going to my V5 firm, despite a class size that is just over half. I'd be surprised if Cornell weren't overrepresented w/r/t Michigian at other top NYC firms, as well.

Another thing I think is overlooked is the strength of Cornell's undergrad alumni community in NYC. Lots of people went to other law schools, but have an affinity for Cornell, and still do recruiting there, etc. It was an asset during recruiting that I didn't expect. The same may be true for Michigan, but again, I think that's more the case outside NYC.

+1

Listen, both firms will place very well in NYC. Cornell probably would be the better choice if you KNEW 100% that you wanted NYC Big Law...but in three years you may want something completely different. With that said, I think Cornell's name, location, and 'law prestige' (as it was called early) are probably the reasons I picked it over Mich.

[BruceWayne]

If you are interested in NYC Biglaw, I'd go choose Cornell. Cornell placed second only to UChicago in the NLJ250 which was for 2010, and the most recent data point. However, ATL ran that leak on Cornell's class of 2011 numbers and although down still close to 50% SA.

I think the choice is close, but the reason why I would pick Cornell is because it seems like Michigan and schools like Virginia and Vanderbilt are able to pad their numbers by including people who got jobs in secondary markets which some people call "regional biglaw". While a lot of people would love to work in these areas and don't mind the pay cut, an interesting comparison for someone like the OP would be how many of Michigan's students place in NYC market paying biglaw, compared to Cornell which appears to place almost exclusively in NYC market paying biglaw.

Also as an anecdote, a buddy of mine from ug is a 1L and apparently Cornell's class of 2013 placed 80% in SA this past oci, but take that, along with all info, with a grain of salt.

That's a very odd way to look at it. I don't think I've ever met someone who considers biglaw placement numbers out side of NYC to be "padded". Particularly when you consider that many of those jobs are harder to get than NYC biglaw. In addition, that's also a big positive for someone who hasn't started law school. The truth is that any top 14 will place well into NYC. The only major difference would be once you start talking about NYU and Columbia (and obviously HYS). But since those schools aren't in play that's not an issue.

With that said, since it really won't matter between Michigan and Cornell when it comes to NYC jobs, he should heavily consider going to the school that gives him the most options in other areas should he change his mind. Michigan is going to be a lot stronger for jobs outside of NYC. It even gives him an outside shot at Chicago should he decide that he is interested in working there. He can essentially forget that from Cornell.

[Tanicius]

If you are interested in NYC Biglaw, I'd go choose Cornell. Cornell placed second only to UChicago in the NLJ250 which was for 2010, and the most recent data point. However, ATL ran that leak on Cornell's class of 2011 numbers and although down still close to 50% SA.

I think the choice is close, but the reason why I would pick Cornell is because it seems like Michigan and schools like Virginia and Vanderbilt are able to pad their numbers by including people who got jobs in secondary markets which some people call "regional biglaw". While a lot of people would love to work in these areas and don't mind the pay cut, an interesting comparison for someone like the OP would be how many of Michigan's students place in NYC market paying biglaw, compared to Cornell which appears to place almost exclusively in NYC market paying biglaw.

Also as an anecdote, a buddy of mine from ug is a 1L and apparently Cornell's class of 2013 placed 80% in SA this past oci, but take that, along with all info, with a grain of salt.

That's a very odd way to look at it. I don't think I've ever met someone who considers biglaw placement numbers out side of NYC to be "padded". Particularly when you consider that many of those jobs are harder to get than NYC biglaw. In addition, that's also a big positive for someone who hasn't started law school. The truth is that any top 14 will place well into NYC. The only major difference would be once you start talking about NYU and Columbia (and obviously HYS). But since those schools aren't in play that's not an issue.

With that said, since it really won't matter between Michigan and Cornell when it comes to NYC jobs, he should heavily consider going to the school that gives him the most options in other areas should he change his mind. Michigan is going to be a lot stronger for jobs outside of NYC. It even gives him an outside shot at Chicago should he decide that he is interested in working there. He can essentially forget that from Cornell.

And, god forbid he strikes out at Biglaw, I would put Michigan's clinical and public interest programs ahead of Cornell's. Michigan is a very good "middle of the road" school. It has very respectable biglaw chances, connections to two major markets rather than one, and a more practical-focused curriculum than most of the T-14, should a student choose to use it.

[crabcakes]

And, god forbid he strikes out at Biglaw, I would put Michigan's clinical and public interest programs ahead of Cornell's. Michigan is a very good "middle of the road" school. It has very respectable biglaw chances, connections to two major markets rather than one, and a more practical-focused curriculum than most of the T-14, should a student choose to use it.[/quote]

hm, this is a good point...

p.s. i'm a girl

[KMaine]

OP - Congrats. Read the comments, pay no attention to the poll results. I had a similar choice to make and found that any argument that Michigan is better is largely a smokescreen. If you were sure you wanted to work in Chicago, I would give an edge to Michigan. Visit, go where you like the best. I think you will find the law schools, campuses and college towns to have a different vibe. Also, Michigan's LS has about twice as many people, so more opportunity for different classes, but harder to make law review, etc.

[IAFG]

And, god forbid he strikes out at Biglaw, I would put Michigan's clinical and public interest programs ahead of Cornell's. Michigan is a very good "middle of the road" school. It has very respectable biglaw chances, connections to two major markets rather than one, and a more practical-focused curriculum than most of the T-14, should a student choose to use it.

why on earth would you say that?