FULL RIDE USD vs NO MONEY BOALT Forum

[NoleinNY]

What kind of work do you do now and why are you intent on leaving it?

EDIT: Or, rather, what were you studying and how was this part of the plan?

Without going into the fine details of my years-long decision process and philosophy, I am a physician. I am interested in health policy. Does that alter your advice for me?

Yes.... This makes me join the chorus of stay the heck out of law school. At the very least, pay off a chunk of your debt before taking the plunge.

Write some and submit some health policy articles in the interim.

Stanford and Yale may be impressed by your background and take you. Don't totally give up hope...

[Kimberly]

Also, what was the weak spot in your apps? LSAT? GPA? Your goals are fairly ambitious. You'd be be better off positioned at like...Chicago...if you really want to do this.

ETA: Strong GPA in light of the fact you probably did premed, though not that helpful cuz of LSAC reasons. Hrmmm. If your LSAT were higher you'd probably get Chicago. Did you at least apply this cycle?

Oh, right, and wherever you go, if you get your grades back and they aren't viable for academia, I suppose you could just drop out then and go back to being a physician.

And then there's that....

[Grizz]

The problem is, awesome grades are pretty close to being necessary but no where close to sufficient for pursuing legal academia.

[094320]

..

[Kimberly]

What kind of work do you do now and why are you intent on leaving it?

EDIT: Or, rather, what were you studying and how was this part of the plan?

Without going into the fine details of my years-long decision process and philosophy, I am a physician. I am interested in health policy. Does that alter your advice for me?

Yes.... This makes me join the chorus of stay the heck out of law school. At the very least, pay off a chunk of your debt before taking the plunge.

Write some and submit some health policy articles in the interim.

Stanford and Yale may be impressed by your background and take you. Don't totally give up hope...

I haven't totally given up hope of this though it would be CRAZY- but, I have seen some crazy stuff happen. I have done the writing/publishing in health policy. I have also paid off some of my debt.... so, I owe a bit less than that... but, my educational debt has a REALLY LOW interest rate so it doesn't make a whole-lotta sense not to just let it linger a bit... it also goes into deferment when I go back to school full time.

And- I didn't go to med school thinking health policy... I went to med school the way most people go into law school-- totally blind because it just seemed like a cool thing to do and I REALLY wanted "to help people" ...

Just suffice it to say for all of the nay-sayers: for where I really want to end up, it will behoove me to go to law school. You may not understand, you may not agree. But, this post is aimed at understanding how important it is to choose a T10 school despite debt rather than T-anything and taking a greater risk (albeit not apparently MUCH greater risk) of not getting where I really want to end up.

[willwash]

In the long run, the degree from Berkeley will be better for you. If you have a chance to go t14, don't give it up for anything. Everything everyone is saying about the job market backs me up.

[Grizz]

In the long run, the degree from Berkeley will be better for you. If you have a chance to go t14, don't give it up for anything. Everything everyone is saying about the job market backs me up.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

The legal academy would be 100% out for me if I go USD, right? Am I wrong about that?

Not 100%... More like 98%. It's possible, but improbable. Chimp is right, it is also improbable (admittedly, to a lesser extent) to get academia from Boalt, too.

Hmmm.... really? The Leiter rankings show that Boalt places into the academy after HYS.
http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

The %'s drop drastically when you go from Yale, Harvard, Standford, and Chicago. And that study, while it tries to capture a more accurate picture of the market, goes back to 1995. Things have gotten even more competitive for these jobs. Unless you go to one of the four previously mentioned schools, legal academia is going to be an upward battle (possible exceptions to this rule might be something like a furman scholar from NYU).

If you are a doctor, that might change the picture some though. If your goal health law or some variant, I could see how that gives you a nice advantage. The downside of this though is your area of study will be pretty narrow and I imagine the teaching market will be a lot more hit or miss for you.

My advice would be to start browsing through law faculty profiles and try to find younger professors with a similar medical backgrounds. Email them for advice and regarding how the teaching market went for them. While older professors may have some insight as well, they probably have no idea how hard the current market is. Hell, professors hired in the early 2000's really don't know how hard the path to academia has become (i.e., clerkships have become insanely competitive).

If you are truly legal academia or bust, then I would advise really reconsidering law school. (Though this is said with really no handle on how the teaching market is for JD/MD's.) If you are more than just legal academia or bust, then things get harder. USD is just not going to give you much of a fighting shot at legal academia (unless the JD/MD really does change things up drastically, which no one on TLS will probably have much insight into--which is why you need to reach out to newly hired profs who were in a similar position). Berkeley, while still being an uphill battle, should give you at least a fighting chance. That said, the idea of having around 450K in student debt is absolutely sickening.

While TLS is a great resource for many things, the advice you need might just be too off the beaten path for TLS to help with. I would start emailing random JD/MD professors soliciting advice if I were you.

[Kimberly]

The legal academy would be 100% out for me if I go USD, right? Am I wrong about that?

Not 100%... More like 98%. It's possible, but improbable. Chimp is right, it is also improbable (admittedly, to a lesser extent) to get academia from Boalt, too.

Hmmm.... really? The Leiter rankings show that Boalt places into the academy after HYS.
http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

The %'s drop drastically when you go from Yale, Harvard, Standford, and Chicago. And that study, while it tries to capture a more accurate picture of the market, goes back to 1995. Things have gotten even more competitive for these jobs. Unless you go to one of the four previously mentioned schools, legal academia is going to be an upward battle (possible exceptions to this rule might be something like a furman scholar from NYU).

If you are a doctor, that might change the picture some though. If your goal health law or some variant, I could see how that gives you a nice advantage. The downside of this though is your area of study will be pretty narrow and I imagine the teaching market will be a lot more hit or miss for you.

My advice would be to start browsing through law faculty profiles and try to find younger professors with a similar medical backgrounds. Email them for advice and regarding how the teaching market went for them. While older professors may have some insight as well, they probably have no idea how hard the current market is. Hell, professors hired in the early 2000's really don't know how hard the path to academia has become (i.e., clerkships have become insanely competitive).

If you are truly legal academia or bust, then I would advise really reconsidering law school. (Though this is said with really no handle on how the teaching market is for JD/MD's.) If you are more than just legal academia or bust, then things get harder. USD is just not going to give you much of a fighting shot at legal academia (unless the JD/MD really does change things up drastically, which no one on TLS will probably have much insight into--which is why you need to reach out to newly hired profs who were in a similar position). Berkeley, while still being an uphill battle, should give you at least a fighting chance. That said, the idea of having around 450K in student debt is absolutely sickening.

While TLS is a great resource for many things, the advice you need might just be too off the beaten path for TLS to help with. I would start emailing random JD/MD professors soliciting advice if I were you.

This is VERY helpful. My response:

1. I have looked for these MD/JD professors... trust me! I know of only ONE MD/JD professor and the advice coming from this resource: "there is no way in God-damn hell you are going to USD". The caveat is that this particular person did not have the debt I did going into the JD portion of their path and so I don't feel that the advice is necessarily grounded in the reality of my financial particulars.

2. You really think NYU-Furman gives a better chance than Boalt? Really? Based on what? (though the point is moot with NYU Furman because that takes care of both the T10 and financial situations)...

3. I realize that TLS is lacking for evidence-based advice but it is actually helpful on some level as a sounding board and reality check at times. Thank you for your insights!

[094320]

..

[Richie Tenenbaum]

This is VERY helpful. My response:

1. I have looked for these MD/JD professors... trust me! I know of only ONE MD/JD professor and the advice coming from this resource: "there is no way in God-damn hell you are going to USD". The caveat is that this particular person did not have the debt I did going into the JD portion of their path and so I don't feel that the advice is necessarily grounded in the reality of my financial particulars.

2. You really think NYU-Furman gives a better chance than Boalt? Really? Based on what? (though the point is moot with NYU Furman because that takes care of both the T10 and financial situations)...

3. I realize that TLS is lacking for evidence-based advice but it is actually helpful on some level as a sounding board and reality check at times. Thank you for your insights!

The Furman comment was a random musing. And a big part of it is the academic backgrounds of the people are usually very strong with many having previous degrees and have been previously published. I think another big part though is the strong faculty support and guidance the people get. Establishing strong connections to faculty can be an important part of the legal academia path and I imagine doing this as a Furman scholar is probably much easier than it is at most other T10 schools.

All that said, I don't think ranking individual schools once you get past YHSC makes much sense b/c after that the numbers are going to be so low that gauging differences will be a bit random when it comes to a per year basis. Basically for legal academia my guess is that it goes something like:
Y>>>>>>HSC>>>>>T10/T14>>>>>>A few other schools>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone else

[Kimberly]

This is VERY helpful. My response:

1. I have looked for these MD/JD professors... trust me! I know of only ONE MD/JD professor and the advice coming from this resource: "there is no way in God-damn hell you are going to USD". The caveat is that this particular person did not have the debt I did going into the JD portion of their path and so I don't feel that the advice is necessarily grounded in the reality of my financial particulars.

2. You really think NYU-Furman gives a better chance than Boalt? Really? Based on what? (though the point is moot with NYU Furman because that takes care of both the T10 and financial situations)...

3. I realize that TLS is lacking for evidence-based advice but it is actually helpful on some level as a sounding board and reality check at times. Thank you for your insights!

The Furman comment was a random musing. And a big part of it is the academic backgrounds of the people are usually very strong with many having previous degrees and have been previously published. I think another big part though is the strong faculty support and guidance the people get. Establishing strong connections to faculty can be an important part of the legal academia path and I imagine doing this as a Furman scholar is probably much easier than it is at most other T10 schools.

All that said, I don't think ranking individual schools once you get past YHSC makes much sense b/c after that the numbers are going to be so low that gauging differences will be a bit random when it comes to a per year basis. Basically for legal academia my guess is that it goes something like:
Y>>>>>>HSC>>>>>T10/T14>>>>>>A few other schools>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Everyone else

Well, this does all confirm the otherwise even more narrow field of comments I had pre-TLS... I will wait to see what I hear from HYSC and then reconsider my options... For now Boalt>>>>USD. Debt be damned.... though, I hear I can take per-diem work in L2, L3 year to offset the cost... It might not be *that* bad

[bk1]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

[Kimberly]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

That said, your point about retaking the LSAT is VALID. And, it is a point I am considering. I would HATE to do that. But, I didn't take a course. I didn't have much time to study and I basically took it cold. If I actually put the time in, I could likely do well. And, if that is equivalent to getting money at HYSC then it might have to be a true consideration.

EDIT: the question is- will doing better on the LSAT mean just getting ACCEPTED to HYSC or will it mean MONEY at HYSC? They don't give merit money, right?

[094320]

..

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

That said, your point about retaking the LSAT is VALID. And, it is a point I am considering. I would HATE to do that. But, I didn't take a course. I didn't have much time to study and I basically took it cold. If I actually put the time in, I could likely do well. And, if that is equivalent to getting money at HYSC then it might have to be a true consideration.

If you got in the high 160's with little to no prep, you absolutely need to retake. You should be able to work you way up to the mid 170's or higher, which could significantly change your options for the better. The idea of waiting another year sucks, but when it can literally translate into tens of thousands of dollars (if not hundreds of thousands) then it needs to be seriously considered. There are plenty of "older" people in law school. Unless there is more to the picture, it really shouldn't be a now or never situation.

Also, here are some people that you might want to try and email:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/f ... lty&ID=221
http://sphhp.buffalo.edu/chhb/faculty/alderman_jess.php
http://www.law.illinois.edu/faculty/profile/DavidHyman
http://law.vanderbilt.edu/faculty/facul ... lty_id=160

While it's a rare combo, I'm sure there's plenty of others out there. I spent a few minutes of googling find these people, I'm sure plenty more can be found with more time searching.

[Kimberly]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

That said, your point about retaking the LSAT is VALID. And, it is a point I am considering. I would HATE to do that. But, I didn't take a course. I didn't have much time to study and I basically took it cold. If I actually put the time in, I could likely do well. And, if that is equivalent to getting money at HYSC then it might have to be a true consideration.

EDIT: the question is- will doing better on the LSAT mean just getting ACCEPTED to HYSC or will it mean MONEY at HYSC? They don't give merit money, right?

Chicago gives merit money. Sometimes bucketloads. But my 3.7X/177+ combo didn't get me very much there. YHS does need-based financial aid. Your GPA might tank you at Stanford (they're very GPA heavy). Yale is a unpredictable. Your GPA will still hurt at Harvard, though again the MD would help overcome. Chicago I think you might still get into, but if you retook and got around 175 or so I think you'd get in.

Also your odds of actually achieving your goals goes up dramatically at one of the 4. Though still limited.

So, if I got into Chicago THIS cycle, you are saying it would NOT be worth aiming for supra175 to try to get money (given the precedent of your stats/offers, that is)?

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

That said, your point about retaking the LSAT is VALID. And, it is a point I am considering. I would HATE to do that. But, I didn't take a course. I didn't have much time to study and I basically took it cold. If I actually put the time in, I could likely do well. And, if that is equivalent to getting money at HYSC then it might have to be a true consideration.

EDIT: the question is- will doing better on the LSAT mean just getting ACCEPTED to HYSC or will it mean MONEY at HYSC? They don't give merit money, right?

Chicago gives merit money. Sometimes bucketloads. But my 3.7X/177+ combo didn't get me very much there. YHS does need-based financial aid. Your GPA might tank you at Stanford (they're very GPA heavy). Yale is a unpredictable. Your GPA will still hurt at Harvard, though again the MD would help overcome. Chicago I think you might still get into, but if you retook and got around 175 or so I think you'd get in.

Also your odds of actually achieving your goals goes up dramatically at one of the 4. Though still limited.

So, if I got into Chicago THIS cycle, you are saying it would NOT be worth aiming for supra175 to try to get money (given the precedent of your stats/offers, that is)?

Scholarship money can be pretty unpredictable. I would go to LSN and spend some time seeing how people with your numbers did, money-wise. (I wish hourumd.com was updated, because it provided a really helpful search through LSN profiles for this kind of breakdown. You can still try hourumd.com, but be aware it is old info and much less reliable.)

[Kimberly]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

That said, your point about retaking the LSAT is VALID. And, it is a point I am considering. I would HATE to do that. But, I didn't take a course. I didn't have much time to study and I basically took it cold. If I actually put the time in, I could likely do well. And, if that is equivalent to getting money at HYSC then it might have to be a true consideration.

If you got in the high 160's with little to no prep, you absolutely need to retake. You should be able to work you way up to the mid 170's or higher, which could significantly change your options for the better. The idea of waiting another year sucks, but when it can literally translate into tens of thousands of dollars (if not hundreds of thousands) then it needs to be seriously considered. There are plenty of "older" people in law school. Unless there is more to the picture, it really shouldn't be a now or never situation.

Also, here are some people that you might want to try and email:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/f ... lty&ID=221
http://sphhp.buffalo.edu/chhb/faculty/alderman_jess.php
http://www.law.illinois.edu/faculty/profile/DavidHyman
http://law.vanderbilt.edu/faculty/facul ... lty_id=160

While it's a rare combo, I'm sure there's plenty of others out there. I spent a few minutes of googling find these people, I'm sure plenty more can be found with more time searching.

Hmmm... good work by you... nice intel. I will email a couple of them... though, by the looks of it, all have their JD from HYSC and will likely echo the sentiments here. But, you nailed it with the appropriate mentors for me. I have the BS and MD from top schools and I was hoping I could just kinda take the free lunch route on the JD portion but apparently that was a bad idea. Money is just a very compelling force... as we all know.

EDIT: This is kinda funny... this 2 hour experience on TLS may prove to be a defining moment that has compelled me to make one choice over another in a very important life decision... so ironic... or ridiculous... though, I did choose my undergrad by a coin flip, which is even more cavalier. I am just not the sort to get caught up in the BS of pedigree and hierarchy-- though I am learning to admit that it does, indeed, matter.

[094320]

..

[Elston Gunn]

FWIW, check out this post before deciding on C for academia: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... a#p4188514

A lot of people think Leiter (who teaches at C) biased his survey in favor of his own school.

That said, your GPA makes HYS tough, so it may be your best option regardless. Good luck!

[Kimberly]

FWIW, check out this post before deciding on C for academia: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... a#p4188514

A lot of people think Leiter (who teaches at C) biased his survey in favor of his own school.

That said, your GPA makes HYS tough, so it may be your best option regardless. Good luck!

Thank you. That is a great post about legal academia. It is just so amazingly different from medical academics... that was downright easy to obtain compared to legal academia... isn't that ironic?

[rbgrocio]

full ride, no question.

[bk1]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

I just cannot fathom being under student loan debt well into one's 50's or 60's. Owing a half million dollars for school pre-interest just seems mindblowing.

[Kimberly]

Why not pay off your debt now, maybe retake the LSAT to lower the cost of law school, and then go to law school once you're no longer $250k in the hole?

Even at a low interest rate... that interest rate is being apply to two hundred fifty thousand dollars.

You realize it will take 30 years to pay off that debt regardless, right? When we are talking about the difference between going now and going in 1-2 more years (all else being equal, of course), we are talking about the difference of MAXIMUM $200/mo for the 25 years following law school if I decide to pay off more now up front.

I just cannot fathom being under student loan debt well into one's 50's or 60's. Owing a half million dollars for school pre-interest just seems mindblowing.

I know. It took me a while to accept this reality. But, most medical students graduate with similar debt. This is why we have the primary care crisis we have... Most medical students choose higher paying specialty fields because the money is so much better than primary care and we all have this incredible debt to pay. The cost of a medical education strongly shapes aspects of our medical system. It is pretty crazy. But, in the end, I am no so worried about it. I have simple needs to keep me happy.