Michigan State University: On The Rise Forum

[PhiAlphaFLBeta]

Despite MSU's somewhat meteoric rise in the rankings (was firmly planted in T3 in 2010), Wayne State still seems to be the primary Law school for Michigan firms.

[jne381]

Despite MSU's somewhat meteoric rise in the rankings (was firmly planted in T3 in 2010), Wayne State still seems to be the primary Law school for Michigan firms.

Incorrect.

[paulinaporizkova]

hi jne.

[jne381]

hi jne.

Hey, girl! Sup?

[paulinaporizkova]

hi jne.

Hey, girl! Sup?

oh just living the dream. glad to hear about Mich State

[jne381]

hi jne.

Hey, girl! Sup?

oh just living the dream. glad to hear about Mich State

Nice. I saw your love note to Michigan on your FB wall.

Do you have Spring Break yet?

[paulinaporizkova]

hi jne.

Hey, girl! Sup?

oh just living the dream. glad to hear about Mich State

Nice. I saw your love note to Michigan on your FB wall.

Do you have Spring Break yet?

tee hee, I thought of you. yeah, that's over and gone sadly. now to press on. fuck 1L in the butt. what are you up to?

[jne381]

tee hee, I thought of you. yeah, that's over and gone sadly. now to press on. fuck 1L in the butt. what are you up to?

Who, me? I am getting ready to graduate and start studying for the bar. Such fun. Such fun.

Oh, I remember 1L. How is LWR treating you? The most work for the fewest credits. Does that sound right?

[paulinaporizkova]

tee hee, I thought of you. yeah, that's over and gone sadly. now to press on. fuck 1L in the butt. what are you up to?

Who, me? I am getting ready to graduate and start studying for the bar. Such fun. Such fun.

Oh, I remember 1L. How is LWR treating you? The most work for the fewest credits. Does that sound right?

OH, our appellate brief is due tomorrow. it's like you read my mind

[jne381]

I am good like that.

[PhiAlphaFLBeta]

Despite MSU's somewhat meteoric rise in the rankings (was firmly planted in T3 in 2010), Wayne State still seems to be the primary Law school for Michigan firms.

Incorrect.

Why? USNews ranking one school 82 and another 110 doesn't really affect the hiring process for Michigan law firms. Most UM grads leave the state and Wayne State has been the pipeline school for Michigan firms for years. Michigan State just recently began taking higher quality students. It will take a lot more than an improving USNews ranking for MSU to overtake Wayne State in the eyes of Michigan law firms (hiring partners worth their salary won't make personnel decisions based on USNews rankings). I'm not saying it won't happen or that it's not in the process of happening, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

[thexfactor]

Despite MSU's somewhat meteoric rise in the rankings (was firmly planted in T3 in 2010), Wayne State still seems to be the primary Law school for Michigan firms.

Incorrect.

Why? USNews ranking one school 82 and another 110 doesn't really affect the hiring process for Michigan law firms. Most UM grads leave the state and Wayne State has been the pipeline school for Michigan firms for years. Michigan State just recently began taking higher quality students. It will take a lot more than an improving USNews ranking for MSU to overtake Wayne State in the eyes of Michigan law firms (hiring partners worth their salary won't make personnel decisions based on USNews rankings). I'm not saying it won't happen or that it's not in the process of happening, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

That is correct. BUT, there aren't a lot of firms in Michigan that pay market. I looked up Miller Canfield's SA from last year and I think 3/8 are from Umich law 1 from NYU, 1 from UVA. The year previous they took all T14 students.
Once you get outside the top 4-5 law firms, SA programs are mostly 1-2 students.

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

I was just posting about MSU in another thread.

One interesting thing about MSU the fact that you can dual-degree practically anything you want with a JD. MSU is a very good school with a very new law school, but it does seem like they are trying hard. So, the thing is, no biglaw, obviously(!), but you can finagle a pretty decent job out of the experience if you match your dual-degree options wisely. I talked to a MA in industrial relations who works for Johnson & Johnson at "just below six-figures."

But, MSU has some serious resources they can throw behind the law school. They are also trying to go public with it, which is like a three stage process in the state. Things will be better for MSU in the not to distant future. Just not sure going there for sticker, or half even, is worth it, especially in the Michigan economy. Funny thing is, if MSU law school wasn't in Michigan, say it was in a less depressed state, they might a good option right now, or very soon.

[jeeptiger09]

Despite MSU's somewhat meteoric rise in the rankings (was firmly planted in T3 in 2010), Wayne State still seems to be the primary Law school for Michigan firms.

Incorrect.

Why? USNews ranking one school 82 and another 110 doesn't really affect the hiring process for Michigan law firms. Most UM grads leave the state and Wayne State has been the pipeline school for Michigan firms for years. Michigan State just recently began taking higher quality students. It will take a lot more than an improving USNews ranking for MSU to overtake Wayne State in the eyes of Michigan law firms (hiring partners worth their salary won't make personnel decisions based on USNews rankings). I'm not saying it won't happen or that it's not in the process of happening, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

I agree with this generally.

That is correct. BUT, there aren't a lot of firms in Michigan that pay market. I looked up Miller Canfield's SA from last year and I think 3/8 are from Umich law 1 from NYU, 1 from UVA. The year previous they took all T14 students.
Once you get outside the top 4-5 law firms, SA programs are mostly 1-2 students.

I definitely agree with this. Michigan Biglaw is pretty much slim-to-none unless you're T-14. With that being said, most of the exceptions to this rule are people at the top of the class at Wayne.

Just not sure going there for sticker, or half even, is worth it, especially in the Michigan economy.

Yep.

--LinkRemoved--

These numbers are pretty scary. 43.1% of Class of 2010 had bar passage required (actual attorney) jobs? Yikes.

[romothesavior]

These threads pop up every year about some school that is "on the rise" or "on the decline." Two years ago, MSU was only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Now, MSU is still only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Five years from now... well you get the point.

This "rise" is great for the administrators who get to pat each other on the back for a "job well done," but it should have virtually no effect on the prospective students considering the school. It is the same school with roughly the same job prospects in the same markets it had before.

[PhiAlphaFLBeta]

Despite MSU's somewhat meteoric rise in the rankings (was firmly planted in T3 in 2010), Wayne State still seems to be the primary Law school for Michigan firms.

Incorrect.

Why? USNews ranking one school 82 and another 110 doesn't really affect the hiring process for Michigan law firms. Most UM grads leave the state and Wayne State has been the pipeline school for Michigan firms for years. Michigan State just recently began taking higher quality students. It will take a lot more than an improving USNews ranking for MSU to overtake Wayne State in the eyes of Michigan law firms (hiring partners worth their salary won't make personnel decisions based on USNews rankings). I'm not saying it won't happen or that it's not in the process of happening, but it certainly hasn't happened yet.

I agree with this generally.

That is correct. BUT, there aren't a lot of firms in Michigan that pay market. I looked up Miller Canfield's SA from last year and I think 3/8 are from Umich law 1 from NYU, 1 from UVA. The year previous they took all T14 students.
Once you get outside the top 4-5 law firms, SA programs are mostly 1-2 students.

I definitely agree with this. Michigan Biglaw is pretty much slim-to-none unless you're T-14. With that being said, most of the exceptions to this rule are people at the top of the class at Wayne.

Just not sure going there for sticker, or half even, is worth it, especially in the Michigan economy.

Yep.

--LinkRemoved--

These numbers are pretty scary. 43.1% of Class of 2010 had bar passage required (actual attorney) jobs? Yikes.

63% for wayne state 2010 class (75% of employed graduates) http://law.wayne.edu/career-services/2010stats.php

[jne381]

I was just posting about MSU in another thread.

One interesting thing about MSU the fact that you can dual-degree practically anything you want with a JD. MSU is a very good school with a very new law school, but it does seem like they are trying hard. So, the thing is, no biglaw, obviously(!), but you can finagle a pretty decent job out of the experience if you match your dual-degree options wisely. I talked to a MA in industrial relations who works for Johnson & Johnson at "just below six-figures."

But, MSU has some serious resources they can throw behind the law school. They are also trying to go public with it, which is like a three stage process in the state. Things will be better for MSU in the not to distant future. Just not sure going there for sticker, or half even, is worth it, especially in the Michigan economy. Funny thing is, if MSU law school wasn't in Michigan, say it was in a less depressed state, they might a good option right now, or very soon.

I don't know why you think the law college is planning to go public. I have not heard that from the administration at all, and I do not think they want to be public. Being private allows them more flexibility in what they want to do with the school. From the opinions I have heard, remaining private but affiliated with MSU provides the school the best of all worlds in their eyes. You could say that if it went public, it could lower tuition rates (although Michigan is not that low for tuition for in-state students), but something like 57% of the students at MSU already receive scholarships.

These threads pop up every year about some school that is "on the rise" or "on the decline." Two years ago, MSU was only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Now, MSU is still only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Five years from now... well you get the point.

This "rise" is great for the administrators who get to pat each other on the back for a "job well done," but it should have virtually no effect on the prospective students considering the school. It is the same school with roughly the same job prospects in the same markets it had before.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that high quality students in general will lead to better quality employees, and more people will come to recruit. You also make it seem like the school has been stagnant over the last several years. being affiliated with MSU has been helpful in raising the awareness of the school, but it has been improving in other ways as well. The number of clinics have expanded exponentially, more faculty (and more prestigious) have been hired, and the employment office works its ass off. So, even though the student numbers have been increasing, it is not the only thing that has changed at the school.

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

I was just posting about MSU in another thread.

One interesting thing about MSU the fact that you can dual-degree practically anything you want with a JD. MSU is a very good school with a very new law school, but it does seem like they are trying hard. So, the thing is, no biglaw, obviously(!), but you can finagle a pretty decent job out of the experience if you match your dual-degree options wisely. I talked to a MA in industrial relations who works for Johnson & Johnson at "just below six-figures."

But, MSU has some serious resources they can throw behind the law school. They are also trying to go public with it, which is like a three stage process in the state. Things will be better for MSU in the not to distant future. Just not sure going there for sticker, or half even, is worth it, especially in the Michigan economy. Funny thing is, if MSU law school wasn't in Michigan, say it was in a less depressed state, they might a good option right now, or very soon.

I don't know why you think the law college is planning to go public. I have not heard that from the administration at all, and I do not think they want to be public. Being private allows them more flexibility in what they want to do with the school. From the opinions I have heard, remaining private but affiliated with MSU provides the school the best of all worlds in their eyes. You could say that if it went public, it could lower tuition rates (although Michigan is not that low for tuition for in-state students), but something like 57% of the students at MSU already receive scholarships.

Look! You did figure it out. As far as scholarship $$$, MSU cannot/will not sustain the amount of money being given away. As you know, they have just increased scholly money. Why? To help all the poor people? Sure... and to get better qualified students to commit. Once they ascend to their ceiling rank they're gonna want state money. And as far as having "more flexibility," wtf? Michigan is public and does whatever the F it wishes to, sans admit based on race.

I like MSU as a university. I do support MSU. I would go to MSU if, A) I was admitted, B) I was given hefty cash, C) the employment prospects look good for the dual degree I am interested in, and D) it makes sense to enroll relative to my other options, one of which is, and often overlooked by many: don't go to law school this year.

On another note, I am genuinely happy for you, that you love the school and that you have reason to be optimistic.

[BarbellDreams]

These threads pop up every year about some school that is "on the rise" or "on the decline." Two years ago, MSU was only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Now, MSU is still only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Five years from now... well you get the point.

This "rise" is great for the administrators who get to pat each other on the back for a "job well done," but it should have virtually no effect on the prospective students considering the school. It is the same school with roughly the same job prospects in the same markets it had before.

This is the only post in this thread that makes any logical sense. As always, thanks romo.

[PhiAlphaFLBeta]

It just seems strange to me that MSU is ranked so much higher than Wayne (proof of arbitrary nature of rankings?).

*MSU's 9 month employment figure is higher than Wayne state's (MSU: 93% with 97% reporting, Wayne: 83% 100% reporting)

*bar passage is similar (~90%),

*Wayne state has a much higher % of grads employed in positions that require bar passage 63% vs 43%

*the median salary is listed as 60k for both schools.

Other than name recognition, what does MSU have that Wayne doesn't? Seems like a waste of money to choose MSU over Wayne.

Only advantages I can see for MSU are name recognition and the big10 college town atmosphere.

[TommyK]

It just seems strange to me that MSU is ranked so much higher than Wayne (proof of arbitrary nature of rankings?).

Arbitrary is probably not the right word. USNWR probably just doesn't weight the same things in their rankings that you would if you came up with one. When you get in this grouping of TTT and borderline TTT schools (wayne and MSU, respectively), small differences will make large impacts on rankings. So while there might be 20 spots separating them, a small change in median of gpa/lsat or overall prestige (or as you put it "name recognition") makes a large difference in the ranking but probably not the comparative quality. MSU is scored as 45/100; Wayne is scored as 38/100.

[buckilaw]

These threads pop up every year about some school that is "on the rise" or "on the decline." Two years ago, MSU was only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Now, MSU is still only a good option for people from the region who want to practice in Michigan who could get scholarships. Five years from now... well you get the point.

This "rise" is great for the administrators who get to pat each other on the back for a "job well done," but it should have virtually no effect on the prospective students considering the school. It is the same school with roughly the same job prospects in the same markets it had before.

So true. A school's movement in the US new ranks will not affect employers' perception of that school. Deciding to go to a school because it's "on the rise" is just terrible.

[cabbydui]

If MSU were to go public would it be "public" in the sense that Wayne State is or "public (ie 97% private) in the way UofM is?

[JamesChapman23]

I cannot stand these threads were people assume that going from 80 to 70 is all the sudden going to have employers calling. It is almost fanciful.

For an extreme example, look at Indiana that went from like 40 to 23. No improvement in employment, terrible big law numbers- despite having LSAT scores rise to like 158-167. Nobody cares. If Indiana cannot do it with pills of money, why do you think MSU can magically do it?

[jne381]

I cannot stand these threads were people assume that going from 80 to 70 is all the sudden going to have employers calling. It is almost fanciful.

For an extreme example, look at Indiana that went from like 40 to 23. No improvement in employment, terrible big law numbers- despite having LSAT scores rise to like 158-167. Nobody cares. If Indiana cannot do it with pills of money, why do you think MSU can magically do it?

Of course one year isn't going to make a difference, but a sustained effort over several years that include higher qualified students, better education, and more faculty will.