UVA Law- worth it at sticker? Forum

[kingjones59]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

I guess

[rayiner]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

OP's alternative here isn't "or bust." It's retaking the LSAT and seeing if he can get within his practice range, which he has a really great shot of doing. T14 isn't so dangerous that you shouldn't go at all, but it is dangerous enough where you want to try and maximize your HYS options first.

To be clear: if OP had a 3.1 UGPA, I would say "go for it." But OP has a 3.95, and I'd give him even odds of getting an LSAT good enough for HYS next year. I think HYS is better enough that it's worth putting off law school for a year for a 50% shot at closing the gap.

[shoeshine]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

Yeah I would say T6 at sticker or T14 with money or bust.

[Curious1]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

Yeah I would say T6 at sticker or T14 with money or bust.

Jesus save us.

[rayiner]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

Yeah I would say T6 at sticker or T14 with money or bust.

Jesus save us.

Are you a current 2L or 3L?

[Curious1]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

Yeah I would say T6 at sticker or T14 with money or bust.

Jesus save us.

Are you a current 2L or 3L?

Nope. 0L currently in college. Just submitted my last app this week. Think it'll get better in 3 years?

[BruceWayne]

Wait what? So the consensus is now T6 or bust instead of T14 or bust??

Yeah I would say T6 at sticker or T14 with money or bust.

This is just something people have started pulling out of their assess lately. One thing that has become pretty apparent to me, and really if you look at the placement info too, is that except for NYC the top 14 are about the same as one another outside of their region if you aren't talking about HYS. Really, I depending on where you are trying to work, going to one of the non HYS top 6 schools can actually worsen your chances of employment compared to one of the "lower" top 14 schools. Try getting a job in the South from NYU as opposed to Duke. Or Columbia in Cincinatti as opposed to Michigan. That "but I went to a top 6" TLS thing won't fly/impress anyone.


I'm basing my opinion off of his/her statement that he/she could probably get a full-time position with the play where they interned. That seems like a fine option to me. But yes, in lieu of that I readily concede that getting a job is still very difficult in other fields, though I will say that far more than 1/3 of the students from econ/business at my UG have "good" jobs in business or consulting, where good is defined as 40-60k a year with manageable hours.

That's the great thing about attending a Princeton, Duke, Michigan, Texas or other strong undergrad. If you just attended an average university, this certainly isn't the case.

[desertlaw]

I also went to UVa at sticker and thankfully it's paying off so far after OGI. But I was a reverse splitter like OP, but probably had no chance of getting my LSAT up as much as I tried. What did help me, though, during OGI, was having a year of WE between college and law school. I think you could use that year to work, save money, POSSIBLY retake if you think you can kill it, and then either take sticker at UVa or take money from them depending on your LSAT. Either way, I think you boost your OGI chances with a good year of WE.

ALSO - a backup option could be going to UVa and paying sticker for a year, seeing if your grades are good enough after 1L. If they are median or below, maybe you drop out and then go back to econ work.

We had a guy basically do that, just after fall of 1L. He's now following his dream, making great rap music.

[5ky]

That's the great thing about attending a Princeton, Duke, Michigan, Texas or other strong undergrad. If you just attended an average university, this certainly isn't the case.

It's a point conceded. The other point was, with an 3.95 GPA in Econ, and an entry-level job seemingly acquired, I highly recommend that OP takes that angle, particularly with a 165. You might enjoy the job and never have to deal with law school. If you still want to go, it gives you to opportunity to retake and get to 170, where you can go to T14 with $$ and some real world experience.

[Tiago Splitter]

That's the great thing about attending a Princeton, Duke, Michigan, Texas or other strong undergrad. If you just attended an average university, this certainly isn't the case.

Definite +1 to this.

[BruceWayne]

At let me just say something that others have alluded to in this thread, and I don't think we talk about this kind of thing enough. It SUCKS, and is emotionally draining to (1) not have employment after going into huge debt and undergoing the stress that is 1L and (2) seeing your friends and fellow students in the same position. And I'm really being serious right now. It just does something to you mentally, and even physically. I once heard someone say that being unemployed for longer than 6 months is emotionally similar to experiencing a death in the family. I believe that; now imagine that same feeling compounded by the fact that you are loaded in 200K+ in debt. It really takes a toll on you. And even if you do land a job, seeing other people who you are friends with struggle is depressing. Good luck to all in this sad economy.

[Curious1]

At let me just say something that others have alluded to in this thread, and I don't think we talk about this kind of thing enough. It SUCKS, and is emotionally draining to (1) not have employment after going into huge debt and undergoing the stress that is 1L and (2) seeing your friends and fellow students in the same position. And I'm really being serious right now. It just does something to you mentally, and even physically. I once heard someone say that being unemployed for longer than 6 months is emotionally similar to experiencing a death in the family. I believe that; now imagine that same feeling compounded by the fact that you are loaded in 200K+ in debt. It really takes a toll on you.

So your advice is don't go to law school?

[dixiecupdrinking]

This isn't about "Twhatever or bust." It's about the OP's options.

OP, I know you just want an up or down vote on whether UVA is "worth it at sticker." There is no way to make a valid judgment about this, though, without looking at your alternatives. My vote is no – for you. If you can get your LSAT up into the low 170s, you're likely to get a big scholarship from UVA. You are essentially saying you can't imagine putting in another three-four months of hard work for $75,000 – actually way more than that because if you take out loans to cover this amount instead, you will be paying it back with compounded interest. I don't know what you think law school is going to be like, but let me tell you. It is more than three or four months of hard work. I think you are being blinded by the pleasant feeling of having the next step in your life plotted out for you immediately at a prestigious law school. If you truly can get a decent job in the meantime, take the time off. Obviously, you'll do what you want in the end, but I cannot recommend strongly enough that you follow this advice.

Edit: This is what I mean by $75,000. http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... ,8&type=jd

[BruceWayne]

At let me just say something that others have alluded to in this thread, and I don't think we talk about this kind of thing enough. It SUCKS, and is emotionally draining to (1) not have employment after going into huge debt and undergoing the stress that is 1L and (2) seeing your friends and fellow students in the same position. And I'm really being serious right now. It just does something to you mentally, and even physically. I once heard someone say that being unemployed for longer than 6 months is emotionally similar to experiencing a death in the family. I believe that; now imagine that same feeling compounded by the fact that you are loaded in 200K+ in debt. It really takes a toll on you.

So your advice is don't go to law school?

I'm not saying that. I don't think that there is a one size fits all answer to that question. For me it was worth the risk because: (1) I couldn't see myself doing any other career (well any other realistic career--I'd love to be a professional athlete or an actor ) (2) I got into a top 10 school in the region of the country where I wanted to work and (3) I had no chance of securing a full time job paying more than 28-30K. But other people are going to have different factors. If you aren't sure what you want to do, and you have a 50K job lined up, there is no way in hell you should go to any law school. HYS or whatever.

[rayiner]

Yeah I would say T6 at sticker or T14 with money or bust.

Jesus save us.

Are you a current 2L or 3L?

Nope. 0L currently in college. Just submitted my last app this week. Think it'll get better in 3 years?

You do OCI after your first year. If you start in 2012, you'll do OCI in 2013. If we start double-dipping next year, we may still be in a recession when you do OCI.

There is no reason not to put off law school for a year or two to see what happens with this unprecedented recession. I can't say enough about how fucked up everything is right now. I've got lots of friends with V25 jobs and lots of friends with nothing and lots of folks in the latter group had better grades than people in the former group. People who want PI, and had the grades to get V25 firm jobs, are coming up with nothing because state governments are broke and the federal government is under enormous budget pressure.

[Curious1]

You do OCI after your first year. If you start in 2012, you'll do OCI in 2013. If we start double-dipping next year, we may still be in a recession when you do OCI.

There is no reason not to put off law school for a year or two to see what happens with this unprecedented recession. I can't say enough about how fucked up everything is right now. I've got lots of friends with V25 jobs and lots of friends with nothing and lots of folks in the latter group had better grades than people in the former group. People who want PI, and had the grades to get V25 firm jobs, are coming up with nothing because state governments are broke and the federal government is under enormous budget pressure.

The recession is hurting everything though. Bulge brackets aren't even recruiting at my school this year (HYP), and we have something like 500 people applying for 6 analyst jobs at BCG. So...not sure I have a lot of great options even if I do put off law school.

Also I have no interest in PI whatsoever. If I strike out at biglaw I will probably commit suicide.

[rayiner]

You do OCI after your first year. If you start in 2012, you'll do OCI in 2013. If we start double-dipping next year, we may still be in a recession when you do OCI.

There is no reason not to put off law school for a year or two to see what happens with this unprecedented recession. I can't say enough about how fucked up everything is right now. I've got lots of friends with V25 jobs and lots of friends with nothing and lots of folks in the latter group had better grades than people in the former group. People who want PI, and had the grades to get V25 firm jobs, are coming up with nothing because state governments are broke and the federal government is under enormous budget pressure.

The recession is hurting everything though. Bulge brackets aren't even recruiting at my school this year (HYP), and we have something like 500 people applying for 6 analyst jobs at BCG. So...not sure I have a lot of great options even if I do put off law school.

Also I have no interest in PI whatsoever. If I strike out at biglaw I will probably commit suicide.

Sure, the recession is hurting everyone, but the dynamics are different. You can't take a couple of years off and apply for a job at a BB or at MBB when the economy is better. Their recruiting doesn't work like that. You can, however come back to the law school thing in a year or two and time your attendance to coincide with a good economy. Remember, you'll be doing your first OCI interviews less than a year after your first day of classes. It's much easier to take advantage of timing with law than with other jobs.

Also, I know you're joking about big law or suicide, but think about it seriously. It's a 50/50 probability. I know going to HYP then missing out on GS/JPM/MS is embarrassing, but don't let your shame make you jump to a premature decision.

[Curious1]

Right that does make sense.

I was only half joking about biglaw or suicide. I really can't contemplate have 0 income and 200K debt. Especially since you only get one shot at it.

I'm trying to hedge my bets by applying around, but it is really dismal here. Right now I'm thinking that if I don't get at least Columbia or a lot of money at a slightly worse school I probably won't go. This forum has really made me pessimistic.

[thelawyler]

If there are this many people telling you take your current job offer and reapply, I honestly wouldn't just brush it off as "oh, it's just TLS being stupid." Likely, you are letting your own bias get in the way.

Like the poster said above me, even if you just up your LSAT a little bit, you will be looking at a lot of money at the T14. You say you were testing in the 170s? To not attempt to reach it is, in my eyes, foolish. Not only will you get work experience, but honestly a year or two off is not a big deal. You have 40 years more to work in your professional life, and so anything to maximize that the latter 30 years of it will be doing what you want to do is more than worth it.

Hell, even if you retake in Feb or Dec, I would recommend doing that if you think you can kill it. I retook the LSAT in June and managed to up my offer at the school I was deposited at by 60 grand with a 4 point increase. This was after I got in off the WL. It was the best 25 hours spent in my life to restudy and take it again. I literally made like $2000+/hour by deciding to retake it. Trust me, I felt like a loser and did not really want to retake it, so much so that I almost canceled going in three days before the exam. But I took it and it was the best decision I have ever made. I think if you retake it and score high again, you'll feel the same way.

Granted, if you feel you might do worse and thus sabotage your chances at UVA, why not ED, get in, and then take the Feb test. If you do well, you take your job and reapply or try to negotiate more money. If you do worse, you already have an offer in the bag. Up to you.

[rayiner]

Right that does make sense.

I was only half joking about biglaw or suicide. I really can't contemplate have 0 income and 200K debt. Especially since you only get one shot at it.

I'm trying to hedge my bets by applying around, but it is really dismal here. Right now I'm thinking that if I don't get at least Columbia or a lot of money at a slightly worse school I probably won't go. This forum has really made me pessimistic.

Don't think of it as a "go" versus "don't go" decision. Think if it as a "now" versus "later" decision. Law school apps are actually down this year, and will probably continue to go down. It's not "buy now or be priced out forever!" like Manhattan real estate.

As I said, it worked out for me. And if it does work out for you I think it can be a very solid career. But I think with fears of double dip, the employment situation is getting worse not better, and now is not the time to jump into it.

[Curious1]

Don't think of it as a "go" versus "don't go" decision. Think if it as a "now" versus "later" decision. Law school apps are actually down this year, and will probably continue to go down. It's not "buy now or be priced out forever!" like Manhattan real estate.

As I said, it worked out for me. And if it does work out for you I think it can be a very solid career. But I think with fears of double dip, the employment situation is getting worse not better, and now is not the time to jump into it.

In that case I think there's no harm in applying now, and deferring if I have a job offer on the table.

Man this is depressing.

[booasa]

Don't think of it as a "go" versus "don't go" decision. Think if it as a "now" versus "later" decision. Law school apps are actually down this year, and will probably continue to go down. It's not "buy now or be priced out forever!" like Manhattan real estate.

As I said, it worked out for me. And if it does work out for you I think it can be a very solid career. But I think with fears of double dip, the employment situation is getting worse not better, and now is not the time to jump into it.

In that case I think there's no harm in applying now, and deferring if I have a job offer on the table.

Man this is depressing.

Ah the glass is more than 1/2 full. With those numbers you can certainly get $$$ at Chicago and maybe CLS/NYU. I know a 3.88/172 who got a Ruby at Chicago so full tuition and a $30,000 stipend.He will graduate with effectively no debt and if he gets decent grades lots of opportunities. Lots of people will trade places with you in a nano second

[shoeshine]

Don't think of it as a "go" versus "don't go" decision. Think if it as a "now" versus "later" decision. Law school apps are actually down this year, and will probably continue to go down. It's not "buy now or be priced out forever!" like Manhattan real estate.

As I said, it worked out for me. And if it does work out for you I think it can be a very solid career. But I think with fears of double dip, the employment situation is getting worse not better, and now is not the time to jump into it.

In that case I think there's no harm in applying now, and deferring if I have a job offer on the table.

Man this is depressing.

At least you are hearing it now. Talking about employment with the 2Ls and 3Ls at my T14 that don't have offers is pretty depressing. I mentioned it in another thread but I literally saw a 2L break down and cry while talking about his experience with call backs to a professor. In public! That is also why you should never talk about employment with a 2L or a 3L unless they bring it up.

[Curious1]

Ah the glass is more than 1/2 full. With those numbers you can certainly get $$$ at Chicago and maybe CLS/NYU. I know a 3.88/172 who got a Ruby at Chicago so full tuition and a $30,000 stipend.He will graduate with effectively no debt and if he gets decent grades lots of opportunities. Lots of people will trade places with you in a nano second

I know, and I don't mean to be moping here when my situation is better than most, but it's generally depressing when you think about the fact that you only get one shot at biglaw--if you strike out, be it you had a cold during CB or your dog dies or whatever, that's it.

No one seems to be able to answer the question: "what do biglaw strikeouts do?" without being extreme. I'm fairly sure it's not biglaw or unemployment, but I don't think opportunities are that rosy either. Can someone who's been out of LS answer this question objectively? Do 2L's ever get another shot? Is there such a thing as 3L OCI's?

[booasa]

Ah the glass is more than 1/2 full. With those numbers you can certainly get $$$ at Chicago and maybe CLS/NYU. I know a 3.88/172 who got a Ruby at Chicago so full tuition and a $30,000 stipend.He will graduate with effectively no debt and if he gets decent grades lots of opportunities. Lots of people will trade places with you in a nano second

I know, and I don't mean to be moping here when my situation is better than most, but it's generally depressing when you think about the fact that you only get one shot at biglaw--if you strike out, be it you had a cold during CB or your dog dies or whatever, that's it.

No one seems to be able to answer the question: "what do biglaw strikeouts do?" without being extreme. I'm fairly sure it's not biglaw or unemployment, but I don't think opportunities are that rosy either. Can someone who's been out of LS answer this question objectively? Do 2L's ever get another shot? Is there such a thing as 3L OCI's?

I am out of LS and am very acquainted with one SW market. If in fact you dog dies on all of the multiple times you have an interview and you graduate in the top 1/2 or 3/4 of your class from a T6 you are very likely to get a decent job at least in a medium sized firm in a secondary market. There is life beyond the Hudson you know! In my particular market a medium sized firm will pay $70,000 to $90,000 for someone like I just described. Since the COL here is about 1/2 of NYC that is much better than a living wage . I cann't speak to true BigLaw in NYC,LA,DC but I know lots of lawyers who have and continue to get jobs in those markets as well even if it isn't with a Vault 100 firm. Finally even if you strike out at 2l OCI I personally know several 2010 and 2011 grads who have gotten decent jobs after graduation. It is a difficult market but while it is a clicheit is true that there is always someone somewhere who needs an associate.