For the 50% who do not get big law from T14 and TI schools? Forum

[monarchylover]

Ok, you are saying you expect more with that education. Maybe. But 80k still puts you way above the median income in this country.

But it's a hard 80 K. Grinding your way thru traffic to shit(court) every morning, bickering over garbage cases, then back to the office for hours of cut n' paste.

this is what I want and not when I am 50 years old so what can I do to get it?

[Bronx Bum]

I don't agree that the midlaw firms I listed would max out at 70-80k. I am sorry to here about your experience with the wawa or w.e

Anyways 70-80k is not that bad in the region I think I would like to live.

200k in loans is not that bad when you choose the IBR payment plan which is forgiven in non PI careers after 25 years...

Look I am just saying at the very least 1/4 of the peps at schools outside T6 do not get NLJ or some other good pi or clerkship. So is it not a good backup plan if thou holy biglaw does not work out to shoot for these jobs from a T14 or TI?

[areyouinsane]

Oh man, I forgot to tell you guys some funny stories about Leahey & Johnson. A buddy of mine quit there and joined us losers/washouts on the doc review circuit back in 2007 when you could still get $40 an hour in NYC. He told me all kinds of horror stories about the place, including "motion madness." You see, if there's a legal holiday like MLK and the shitcourts are closed, you have to be in the office at 8 am sharp and cut/paste 10 motions together minimum that day. They don't care if the "discovery" (which is nothing but one page HIPPA authorizations for the P's medical records) have been provided, they make real BS motions like saying the notary stamps are blurry and shit like that.

You also have to work two Saturdays a month from 9-5 and - get this- wear a suit! You see, the old turd who owns this boiler room thinks he's some kind of legendary insurance defender superhero:

--LinkRemoved--

He walks around all day like a Gestapo officer and bitches that "back in the old days none of you kids could've cut it" and stuff like that.

Also gotta LOL at his little website bio, which states:

“For many attorneys,” continues the profile in the Law Journal, “there is no
higher compliment than to call another attorney 'a Pete Johnson.’”

ROTFL! I can just see the partner doods from Wachtell boarding the LearJet after a big SCOTUS win and backslapping each other, saying "Boy, you really Pete Johnson'ed that old coot Scalia!"

Oh and by the way, the "firm" pays 45 K a year. All they have are the crappiest Allstate fender benders and other such refuse.

Gotta also LOL that no associates are listed on the website, since the average one only stays about a month or two!

[monarchylover]

I don't agree that the midlaw firms I listed would max out at 70-80k. I am sorry to here about your experience with the wawa or w.e

Anyways 70-80k is not that bad in the region I think I would like to live.

200k in loans is not that bad when you choose the IBR payment plan which is forgiven in non PI careers after 25 years...

Look I am just saying at the very least 1/4 of the peps at schools outside T6 do not get NLJ or some other good pi or clerkship. So is it not a good backup plan if thou holy biglaw does not work out to shoot for these jobs from a T14 or TI?

you no liky me spelling fock yous

[dr123]

Oh man, I forgot to tell you guys some funny stories about Leahey & Johnson. A buddy of mine quit there and joined us losers/washouts on the doc review circuit back in 2007 when you could still get $40 an hour in NYC. He told me all kinds of horror stories about the place, including "motion madness." You see, if there's a legal holiday like MLK and the shitcourts are closed, you have to be in the office at 8 am sharp and cut/paste 10 motions together minimum that day. They don't care if the "discovery" (which is nothing but one page HIPPA authorizations for the P's medical records) have been provided, they make real BS motions like saying the notary stamps are blurry and shit like that.

You also have to work two Saturdays a month from 9-5 and - get this- wear a suit! You see, the old turd who owns this boiler room thinks he's some kind of legendary insurance defender superhero:

--LinkRemoved--

He walks around all day like a Gestapo officer and bitches that "back in the old days none of you kids could've cut it" and stuff like that.

Also gotta LOL at his little website bio, which states:

“For many attorneys,” continues the profile in the Law Journal, “there is no
higher compliment than to call another attorney 'a Pete Johnson.’”

ROTFL! I can just see the partner doods from Wachtell boarding the LearJet after a big SCOTUS win and backslapping each other, saying "Boy, you really Pete Johnson'ed that old coot Scalia!"

Oh and by the way, the "firm" pays 45 K a year. All they have are the crappiest Allstate fender benders and other such refuse.

fuckin lol

[094320]

..

[monarchylover]

Oh man, I forgot to tell you guys some funny stories about Leahey & Johnson. A buddy of mine quit there and joined us losers/washouts on the doc review circuit back in 2007 when you could still get $40 an hour in NYC. He told me all kinds of horror stories about the place, including "motion madness." You see, if there's a legal holiday like MLK and the shitcourts are closed, you have to be in the office at 8 am sharp and cut/paste 10 motions together minimum that day. They don't care if the "discovery" (which is nothing but one page HIPPA authorizations for the P's medical records) have been provided, they make real BS motions like saying the notary stamps are blurry and shit like that.

You also have to work two Saturdays a month from 9-5 and - get this- wear a suit! You see, the old turd who owns this boiler room thinks he's some kind of legendary insurance defender superhero:

--LinkRemoved--

He walks around all day like a Gestapo officer and bitches that "back in the old days none of you kids could've cut it" and stuff like that.

Also gotta LOL at his little website bio, which states:

“For many attorneys,” continues the profile in the Law Journal, “there is no
higher compliment than to call another attorney 'a Pete Johnson.’”

ROTFL! I can just see the partner doods from Wachtell boarding the LearJet after a big SCOTUS win and backslapping each other, saying "Boy, you really Pete Johnson'ed that old coot Scalia!"

Oh and by the way, the "firm" pays 45 K a year. All they have are the crappiest Allstate fender benders and other such refuse.

Gotta also LOL that no associates are listed on the website, since the average one only stays about a month or two!

hot watchtell partners + scalia love making but that firm has like 3 people at it hooker I was talking about firms with a 100-249 people...

[BackToTheOldHouse]

hot watchtell partners + scalia love making but that firm has like 3 people at it hooker I was talking about firms with a 100-249 people...

This makes perfect sense.

[monarchylover]

I don't agree that the midlaw firms I listed would max out at 70-80k. I am sorry to here about your experience with the wawa or w.e

Anyways 70-80k is not that bad in the region I think I would like to live.

200k in loans is not that bad when you choose the IBR payment plan which is forgiven in non PI careers after 25 years...

Look I am just saying at the very least 1/4 of the peps at schools outside T6 do not get NLJ or some other good pi or clerkship. So is it not a good backup plan if thou holy biglaw does not work out to shoot for these jobs from a T14 or TI?

Yes, because being in student loan debt for 25 years is such a great idea. You also have to hope that the government never cuts IBR.

Well I would hope that I would pay it off before 25 years as I suspect partners at these non NLJ250 firms make at least 6 figs... I may be wrong maybe those 12 firms in tampa that show up on the NALP are the only firms in town that pay partners 6figgys....
But what is your plan if your precious biglaw plans fail?

[keg411]

The only way to do decently in ID is to get an in-house job. Insurance company management is still shitty, but it's as 9-5 (no weekends) and decent salary + benefits as you are going to get in "shitlaw" (because there is no billable hour in-house). You won't get paid "BigLaw"-level, but you do make enough to live pretty well (without debt, of course).

But people who get those jobs stay pretty much forever, since it's a much better QOL then you're going to get anywhere else in that realm of the legal field (and yes, those people are still there right now and no, the insurance companies are not hiring you).

[094320]

..

[johnnyutah]

I understand the T6 puts a small portion and T14 an even smaller portion into into AIII clerkships and top public sector spots.. For those 30-60% what do they do?

As a former t-14 student with $150k of debt, my answer is: state trial court clerkship, hopefully followed by job as Public Defender.

[3ThrowAway99]

The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.

This is incredibly frightening and sad. ):

I would take what this poster says with a grain of salt. Not to say that the legal market isn't horrifying and total crap right now, but IIRC this poster is quite the tale-teller and has been banned before for nonsense and end-of-world posts. My apologies to areyouinsane if I have you confused with someone else.

And also FYI, BrooklynBum is a certified troll.

And who the fuck are you? Some TTT bound 0L?

Wrong on both accounts trollface.

[NYC Law]

From my brief (~6 mo) glimpse in the world of shitlaw as an assistant, what areyouinsane says is generally true, with some hyperbole. It's pretty awful, and if it comes to that after graduation I'm going to leave the country and try my luck somewhere else for a non-law career. No way in hell.

[3ThrowAway99]

From my brief (~6 mo) glimpse in the world of shitlaw as an assistant, what areyouinsane says is generally true, with some hyperbole. It's pretty awful, and if it comes to that after graduation I'm going to leave the country and try my luck somewhere else for a non-law career. No way in hell.

Yeah, I'd say I even feel that way about some associate positions. I'd rather do something slightly meaningful in a position where I make half or less biglaw salary if it means I'm not working for/with a bunch of dicks in a sweatshop for the next 30 years.

[JCougar]

It's a lot more than 50% these days if you're including all the T1 schools. The lower half of the T1 (25-50) are placing only between 10-15% of graduates in biglaw/clerkships these days. And even the schools in the 18-25 range are doing no better than 25%, with the exception of a few that are home markets with lots of biglaw firms. And it gets really dicey below the top 33% at all schools from 18 up to the T5-6. Median even at a lower T14 these days is an uneasy position to be in unless you have something else of significane on your resume.

The bright side is that there's a lot of public schools within the T1 where you can go for in-state tuition that have decent connections to in-state small-law and government jobs, such as Wisconsin, UGA, UF, FSU, Alabama, UNC, Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, Davis, Hastings, CU, Washington, OSU, etc. But even at these schools, finishing below median will make it a struggle to even find small-law in-state legal work. But at least you're not screwed with boatloads of debt when you do find it.

I would really beware of the private schools in the T18-50 range that are stingy with scholarship money and especially those in very high COL areas (COL in NYC or DC can add up to 30K of debt alone compared to more reasonably priced areas). These places are graduating hoards of students with still pretty decent entering credentials -- sending them off with $200K worth of debt and with close to 80% of them having, at least initially, no hope of paying off their loans without some sort of government assistance or school funding for PI work if they paid sticker for their school.

For a good 85-90% of all law students, the financial situation is pretty bleak. I really have no idea what people significantly below median with little to no work experience will do, even at T1 schools. There just isn't enough legal jobs out there. I imagine many of them just get married to someone else who can be the breadwinner. Or they have their parents or grandparents help them pay off the loans. I have no idea if I'm going to have a job myself after school is done, and my parents have no money. I may be able to squeak into biglaw based on my work experience, but it's going to take a lot of legwork, and even then, it's doubtful. And I go to a T20 school and have okay but not great grades. There's just not a lot of job openings...even in small law. Or if there is, I have no idea where they are other than isolated stuff here and there. My best bet might be to just go into consulting in the field I was doing before law school.

But you can say that for a lot of majors these days. Now really isn't a great time to go back to school for any profession except for maybe some sub-fields of engineering or nursing. The only difference is that law students go into even greater debt than everyone else, because universities use our tuition money to fund other university programs that have even worse career prospects.

[monarchylover]

Well I would hope that I would pay it off before 25 years as I suspect partners at these non NLJ250 firms make at least 6 figs... I may be wrong maybe those 12 firms in tampa that show up on the NALP are the only firms in town that pay partners 6figgys....
But what is your plan if your precious biglaw plans fail?

I'm not taking out 200K in debt in the first place, so I'll be fine. I also think my odds are decent enough for the gamble. Planning to make partner is incredibly risky. If you're okay with the financial risk, and think the possible consequences are livable, all the power to you.

I am not planning to make partner and I am shooting for big law but with 1/4 or more of students not getting big law/clerkships/good PI, I am looking at contingency plans. I would also assume(guess) making partner at midlaw/smaller region biglaw would be easier than NYC/DC/LA/Boston/Chicago Big Law. I don't really want to take out 200k either. So would it be smarter for me to attend a lower ranked TI or a good regional T2 school at little to no cost than attend a T14 school at sticker since I would be taking out 200k in debt? That way if I did not make big law I would not even have to worry about IBR or becoming a strip club owner? I have a 3.4-3.49 gpa so HYS are out and CCN are out unless I score crazy high which is unlikely...

[094320]

..

[Noval]

I don't agree that the midlaw firms I listed would max out at 70-80k. I am sorry to here about your experience with the wawa or w.e

Anyways 70-80k is not that bad in the region I think I would like to live.

200k in loans is not that bad when you choose the IBR payment plan which is forgiven in non PI careers after 25 years...
Look I am just saying at the very least 1/4 of the peps at schools outside T6 do not get NLJ or some other good pi or clerkship. So is it not a good backup plan if thou holy biglaw does not work out to shoot for these jobs from a T14 or TI?

Oh my...

[monarchylover]

I don't agree that the midlaw firms I listed would max out at 70-80k. I am sorry to here about your experience with the wawa or w.e

Anyways 70-80k is not that bad in the region I think I would like to live.

200k in loans is not that bad when you choose the IBR payment plan which is forgiven in non PI careers after 25 years...
Look I am just saying at the very least 1/4 of the peps at schools outside T6 do not get NLJ or some other good pi or clerkship. So is it not a good backup plan if thou holy biglaw does not work out to shoot for these jobs from a T14 or TI?

Oh my...

so what you are saying is the 200k you invest in law school is not worth the same 200k you would pay to buy a $400k house instead of a $200k house granted the 30yr fixed has 5 years more calculated, yet the IBR is a much smaller monthly payment than your mortgage payment especially if you have a low salary...
You really believe the lifetime return on a TI or T14 law school is worse than the lifetime return of 200k in real estate?

[Tiago Splitter]

Do keep in mind that the forgiven amount is taxable.

[Stringer Bell]

Bottom line is that almost everyone in the legal industry hates their job. The one and ONLY thing that allows the Biglaw types to tolerate it is the money. When you take away the $$$, there is literally nothing to recommend this industry.

I enjoy your posts, but anecdotally this seems like an overstatement.

[98234872348]

http://www.constangy.com/
http://www.zuckerman.com/tampa/
http://www.stearnsweaver.com/
http://www.wickersmith.com/
http://www.litchfieldcavo.com/1_firm.html
http://www.conroysimberg.com/
http://www.gray-robinson.com/
why not IBR and work your way up?

Most of these firms have hiring processes that are identical to top firms.

Wicker Smith, Gray Robinson, Constangy, and (I believe) Stearns Weaver all hire 2Ls as summer associates and typically hire those SAs.

[thecilent]

good to know... I've worked in sales so everything you just said about ID really does not sound that bad. I don't mind being the laughing stock... I really just want to product liability/wrongful death on the plaintiff side but I have found that most of the time great plaintiff trial lawyers start in ID defense firms. Like I want to be an "ambulance chaser."

The saddest part of all are the older ID shitlawyers in their late 40s or so, still grinding it out and bickering over these fender-bender files, bouncing from one shitlaw ID boiler room to the next. We used to call them "poors." You hear them bitching in court about how much their kid's college is gonna cost, how expensive dry-cleaning their JC Penney suits costs, shit like that. A lot of these schlubs have serious alcohol problems too. Most of them make in the 70-80 K range, which is pretty piss poor for the NYC/North NJ area, esp. if you have a family.

But that's pretty much top whack for mindless monkey work like insurance defense. Even after decades of fender bender ID 'experience," you'll never even make half what a 25 year old Biglaw kid gets.These schmucks are lower-middle or working class, nothing more. They live in crummy aluminum-sided tract housing in shitty parts of NJ or some outer borough and drive jalopy cars with "Mets" bumper stickers and shit.

There was one funny old drunk I'll call "Bill" who used to come to court smelling like the wrath of John Barleycorn every day. He was short, bald, fat, and about 50 years old. He worked for a notorious shitlaw mill called Leahey & Johnson.

One day he was begging some adjuster via cellphone to settle a nonsense soft-tissue auto case my shitlaw firm had slapped on them. I kept dinging his "offers" and sending him back out to the hallway to beg the adjuster for some kind of decent settlement.

But the bad thing about Leahey & Johnson is that they represent Allstate, and those pricks simply don't cough up $$$ period. Every single case is a "no pay" for them, even if your guy gets hit by a drunk driver with no license and ends up paralyzed & in an iron lung. Not that it really matters since most of the policies are puny little 25 K state minimum coverage anyway (NJ now requires only 15 K, so auto injury cases in NJ are real turds handled only by the most desperate bottom feeders from TTT's like R-N and Seton Hall).

I think he finally came back with $500 bucks, which I turned down. So we went to see the judge to get sent to our jury room to pick and Phil tries telling the judge he has pink eye. He was leaning over the bench and trying to pull his eyelids back b/c the judge didn't believe him. Then the judge gets pissed when Phil knocks over this weird paperweight the judge had, and he starts telling Phil "to call Lawyer Assistance" and sober up, etc. Everyone started cracking up and here's Phil saying he really has pink eye, and can't we do the trial another day, etc. So the judge finally adjourns the stupid thing and Phil rolls out of court and back to his barstool.

Funny thing was that the client with that case got sent to Rikers not long afterwords for stabbing his girlfriend, and when my boss did settle the case I had to go to the joint and get him to sign the releases. We deposited the check in his commissary account when it came.

Man I love your posts, esp this one, but you really fucked up that whole name thing

[thecilent]

“For many attorneys,” continues the profile in the Law Journal, “there is no
higher compliment than to call another attorney 'a Pete Johnson.’”

ROTFL! I can just see the partner doods from Wachtell boarding the LearJet after a big SCOTUS win and backslapping each other, saying "Boy, you really Pete Johnson'ed that old coot Scalia!"

lmao