NU vs. UPenn - Made my decision, thanks. Forum

[Upton Sinclair]

NLJ 250 Stats

Year; NU; Penn -- Margin of placement
2007; 73.5%; 69% -- NU +4.5%
2008;62.9%;67.7% -- Penn +4.8%
2009;55.9%;50.8% -- NU +5.1%
2010;44.4%;53.3% -- Penn +8.9%

Over the past 4 years Penn and Northwestern have alternated spots in NLJ 250 placement.

I think the real reason that people think Penn has much better biglaw placement is that the very top NYC firms tend to recruit more heavily from Penn than from NU. Wachtell interviews and hires at Penn, but doesn't come to NU OCI.

If those are jobs that you don't care about and you would rather work in Chicago, come to NU.

Awesome post, thanks. Do you think the steady decline at NU over the past few years is something to worry about? Or the 11% drop from 09-10?

[bdubs]

NLJ 250 Stats

Year; NU; Penn -- Margin of placement
2007; 73.5%; 69% -- NU +4.5%
2008;62.9%;67.7% -- Penn +4.8%
2009;55.9%;50.8% -- NU +5.1%
2010;44.4%;53.3% -- Penn +8.9%

Over the past 4 years Penn and Northwestern have alternated spots in NLJ 250 placement.

I think the real reason that people think Penn has much better biglaw placement is that the very top NYC firms tend to recruit more heavily from Penn than from NU. Wachtell interviews and hires at Penn, but doesn't come to NU OCI.

If those are jobs that you don't care about and you would rather work in Chicago, come to NU.

Awesome post, thanks. Do you think the steady decline at NU over the past few years is something to worry about? Or the 11% drop from 09-10?

Haha, well I will be CO 2014 at NU so perhaps you should take my opinions with a grain of salt.

From what I have heard the decline year over year is due to the economy, and is not specific to NU. The big drop last year was due to two things, 1) NU significantly outperformed its peer schools in 2009 placement, keeping up that kind of relative performance wasn't realistic 2) The NYC market began improving earlier and expanded hiring at a faster rate than other markets. Chicago and CA continued to suffer (and DC to some extent), disadvantaging students at schools that traditionally place in those markets.

A current student can feel free to correct me if they think my impressions are wrong.

ETA: I chose NU over Penn and NYU, so I have done this research to inform my own choice. I also have a desire to be in a non NYC market and really like Chicago.

[paulinaporizkova]

NLJ 250 Stats

Year; NU; Penn -- Margin of placement
2007; 73.5%; 69% -- NU +4.5%
2008;62.9%;67.7% -- Penn +4.8%
2009;55.9%;50.8% -- NU +5.1%
2010;44.4%;53.3% -- Penn +8.9%

Over the past 4 years Penn and Northwestern have alternated spots in NLJ 250 placement.

I think the real reason that people think Penn has much better biglaw placement is that the very top NYC firms tend to recruit more heavily from Penn than from NU. Wachtell interviews and hires at Penn, but doesn't come to NU OCI.

If those are jobs that you don't care about and you would rather work in Chicago, come to NU.

Awesome post, thanks. Do you think the steady decline at NU over the past few years is something to worry about? Or the 11% drop from 09-10?

i think this is like people deciding that cornell is one of the best t14s to be at based on their most recent wacky employment stats. sure it's a great school, but if you're going to extrapolate this into an overarching trend, you're doing it wrong (in other words, i don't think the drop matters)

[Upton Sinclair]

NLJ 250 Stats

Year; NU; Penn -- Margin of placement
2007; 73.5%; 69% -- NU +4.5%
2008;62.9%;67.7% -- Penn +4.8%
2009;55.9%;50.8% -- NU +5.1%
2010;44.4%;53.3% -- Penn +8.9%

Over the past 4 years Penn and Northwestern have alternated spots in NLJ 250 placement.

I think the real reason that people think Penn has much better biglaw placement is that the very top NYC firms tend to recruit more heavily from Penn than from NU. Wachtell interviews and hires at Penn, but doesn't come to NU OCI.

If those are jobs that you don't care about and you would rather work in Chicago, come to NU.

Awesome post, thanks. Do you think the steady decline at NU over the past few years is something to worry about? Or the 11% drop from 09-10?

i think this is like people deciding that cornell is one of the best t14s to be at based on their most recent wacky employment stats. sure it's a great school, but if you're going to extrapolate this into an overarching trend, you're doing it wrong (in other words, i don't think the drop matters)

Thanks, Paulina. Welcome back from your hiatus, btw.

[paulinaporizkova]

Thanks, Paulina. Welcome back from your hiatus, btw.

thanks! me gusta your new avatar

[Upton Sinclair]

Thanks, Paulina. Welcome back from your hiatus, btw.

thanks! me gusta your new avatar

I demand respect. This 'tar delivers.

[TLSNYC]

NLJ 250 Stats

Year; NU; Penn -- Margin of placement
2007; 73.5%; 69% -- NU +4.5%
2008;62.9%;67.7% -- Penn +4.8%
2009;55.9%;50.8% -- NU +5.1%
2010;44.4%;53.3% -- Penn +8.9%

Over the past 4 years Penn and Northwestern have alternated spots in NLJ 250 placement.

I think the real reason that people think Penn has much better biglaw placement is that the very top NYC firms tend to recruit more heavily from Penn than from NU. Wachtell interviews and hires at Penn, but doesn't come to NU OCI.

If those are jobs that you don't care about and you would rather work in Chicago, come to NU.

Awesome post, thanks. Do you think the steady decline at NU over the past few years is something to worry about? Or the 11% drop from 09-10?

Haha, well I will be CO 2014 at NU so perhaps you should take my opinions with a grain of salt.

From what I have heard the decline year over year is due to the economy, and is not specific to NU. The big drop last year was due to two things, 1) NU significantly outperformed its peer schools in 2009 placement, keeping up that kind of relative performance wasn't realistic 2) The NYC market began improving earlier and expanded hiring at a faster rate than other markets. Chicago and CA continued to suffer (and DC to some extent), disadvantaging students at schools that traditionally place in those markets.

A current student can feel free to correct me if they think my impressions are wrong.

ETA: I chose NU over Penn and NYU, so I have done this research to inform my own choice. I also have a desire to be in a non NYC market and really like Chicago.

The difference between the two might change in favor Penn if you compare NLJ250+ Art III. Or it might not. I've never really heard of NW being all that strong for clerkships.

[jeremysen]

NLJ 250 Stats

Year; NU; Penn -- Margin of placement
2007; 73.5%; 69% -- NU +4.5%
2008;62.9%;67.7% -- Penn +4.8%
2009;55.9%;50.8% -- NU +5.1%
2010;44.4%;53.3% -- Penn +8.9%

Over the past 4 years Penn and Northwestern have alternated spots in NLJ 250 placement.

I think the real reason that people think Penn has much better biglaw placement is that the very top NYC firms tend to recruit more heavily from Penn than from NU. Wachtell interviews and hires at Penn, but doesn't come to NU OCI.

If those are jobs that you don't care about and you would rather work in Chicago, come to NU.

Awesome post, thanks. Do you think the steady decline at NU over the past few years is something to worry about? Or the 11% drop from 09-10?

Haha, well I will be CO 2014 at NU so perhaps you should take my opinions with a grain of salt.

From what I have heard the decline year over year is due to the economy, and is not specific to NU. The big drop last year was due to two things, 1) NU significantly outperformed its peer schools in 2009 placement, keeping up that kind of relative performance wasn't realistic 2) The NYC market began improving earlier and expanded hiring at a faster rate than other markets. Chicago and CA continued to suffer (and DC to some extent), disadvantaging students at schools that traditionally place in those markets.

A current student can feel free to correct me if they think my impressions are wrong.

ETA: I chose NU over Penn and NYU, so I have done this research to inform my own choice. I also have a desire to be in a non NYC market and really like Chicago.

Employment difference negligible vs. your preference for Chicago IMO. NU's also apparently really good for tax law.


Another poster mentioned clerkships: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

NU's # are only 2% behind Penn, though I'm not entirely sure that I trust those rankings...and you did mention that your goal was biglaw.

[FantasticMrFox]

so deep

[Upton Sinclair]

Employment difference negligible vs. your preference for Chicago IMO. NU's also apparently really good for tax law.


Another poster mentioned clerkships: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

NU's # are only 2% behind Penn, though I'm not entirely sure that I trust those rankings...and you did mention that your goal was biglaw.

Yeah, I would be thrilled if I landed a clerkship. But since the chances of that happening are so slim, I really didn't factor it into the decision. I appreciate the link, dude.

[paulinaporizkova]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

[czelede]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

TLS has more love for Mich than Penn.

[bdubs]

The difference between the two might change in favor Penn if you compare NLJ250+ Art III. Or it might not. I've never really heard of NW being all that strong for clerkships.

Penn consistently has more grads in article III clerkships, but the differences are small enough that it doesn't really change the picture much.

FYI - Northwestern placed 6.8% to Penn's 10.9% in 2007, every year since has had a smaller gap in clerkship placements.

[dpk711]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

TLS has more love for Mich than Penn.

Right? Which is pretty stupid IMHO, I mean omg isn't Penn an IVY??!!!

[Upton Sinclair]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

Probably the Chicago vs. NYC thing. Though FWIW, I posted this thread like 3 months ago. Poll results were like 59-41 in favor of Penn.

[Upton Sinclair]

Wondering if anyone has first or second hand anecdotal instances of getting a non-NYC major market with no ties from UPenn. Thanks again for all the responses.

[paulinaporizkova]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

Probably the Chicago vs. NYC thing. Though FWIW, I posted this thread like 3 months ago. Poll results were like 59-41 in favor of Penn.

lol, just shows our remarkable poll consistency around here

[bhan87]

Some regional stats:

Penn's geographic breakdown:

International 1.59%
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 3.57%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 61.11%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 4.37%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 0.79%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 15.87%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.00%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 3.97%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.59%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 7.14%

Northwestern's geographic breakdown:

Northeast: 29%
West 25%
South 21%
Midwest 23%
International 2%

Caveat: Self-selection probably plays some factor, but I don't think this breakdown is insignificant. But another way to read this data would be that Penn grads would be a rarer (and potentially more valuable) commodity in the Chicago market

[Upton Sinclair]

Some regional stats:

Penn's geographic breakdown:

International 1.59%
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 3.57%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 61.11%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 4.37%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 0.79%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 15.87%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.00%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 3.97%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.59%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 7.14%

Northwestern's geographic breakdown:

Northeast: 29%
West 25%
South 21%
Midwest 23%
International 2%

Caveat: Self-selection probably plays some factor, but I don't think this breakdown is insignificant. But another way to read this data would be that Penn grads would be a rarer (and potentially more valuable) commodity in the Chicago market

Yeah, I can definitely see this being the case. I just worry that I wouldn't have much of a chance with no ties to the area, other than the fact that I'm from the Midwest (which probably doesn't count for anything). And from what I have heard from current students and recent grads, other than awful grades, poor bidding is the biggest factor in getting shut out at OCI.

[Bumi]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?

[Upton Sinclair]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

Probably the Chicago vs. NYC thing. Though FWIW, I posted this thread like 3 months ago. Poll results were like 59-41 in favor of Penn.

lol, just shows our remarkable poll consistency around here

In other news, as a fellow OG DPer, what the hell happened to our thread? I hold you 95% responsible.

[paulinaporizkova]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?

whoa whoa whoa there. just a general observation, no need to get snippy

[paulinaporizkova]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

Probably the Chicago vs. NYC thing. Though FWIW, I posted this thread like 3 months ago. Poll results were like 59-41 in favor of Penn.

lol, just shows our remarkable poll consistency around here

In other news, as a fellow OG DPer, what the hell happened to our thread? I hold you 95% responsible.

i have no fucking idea. i blame fatduck's self ban. anyway, i pretty much switched it up to GT/Banter/BP when i want to be obscene, and it's all good.

[bdubs]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?

Chicago, Yale, Harvard, Stanford
...
Northwestern, Michigan
...
Columbia, NYU, Penn, Virginia, Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown
...
Texas

[paulinaporizkova]

i'm actually pleasantly surprised NU is winning. i feel like if it were michigan vs NU michigan would be killing it. why is that anyway....

How would you rank the T14 for someone who wants Chicago?

Chicago, Yale, Harvard, Stanford
...
Northwestern, Michigan
...
Columbia, NYU, Penn, Virginia, Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown
...
Texas

this looks about right. i'd probably put georgetown down with texas though