Berkeley over Columbia, both at sticker? Forum

[DreamsInDigital]

I would've chosen Berkeley over Columbia, but I'm that rare person who doesn't like New York.

+1

I agree with everyone that says it comes down to where your friend wants to end up and what he/she liked about Berkeley. From anecdotal evidence, I think the environments at the schools are very different. Personally, I can not imagine myself living in New York but even without a strong bias the cities offer way different experiences.

I don't think either one would be a bad decision and your friend should go wherever they think they would feel better, because I would guess that has at least a slight correlation with first year success.

[IzziesGal]

Those of us who wanted big law, got it.

We shouldn't delude 0Ls. The market is still brutal, and apparently even 1/3 of Harvard struck out last year. (Not to mention, people who bid on California, including LA, had an especially difficult time unless they had really good grades or were IP-focused.)

It's not deluding 0Ls when it's true. Again, I stress that there's admittedly a smaller number of Boalties interested in big law since so many want public interest, so it's definitely not the same as an entire class of Harvard, for example, gunning for a few big law spots. But I can honestly say that every single person I know who wanted a big law job, got one. People took the economy seriously and applied up and down the entire Vault list, were geographically flexible, etc. People from CA who wanted the Bay Area applied all over the country and landed offers that they took in NY. No one was naive enough to only apply to the top 15 firms or the top firms in the Bay Area and think the jobs were theirs. People approached OCIP with caution, and I think it paid off. Biglaw does exist outside of the top 20 firms. 1-100 all start at 160k.

I've heard of a few transfers striking out, but I don't know them personally. The one transfer I know had 3 V20 offers to choose from.

[IzziesGal]

I think this is really just west coast vs. east coast. Both are amazing schools, and job prospects will be great on either side. If he's happy at Boalt and loves Cali, why the hell not?

And it's not even an East Coast v. West Coast thing. There are a TON of us heading to NY and DC this summer from Boalt. And there are Columbia grads working out here in law firms, etc. I don't think the difference between the two schools is big enough, honestly. The only real difference I see is that perhaps most of Columbia students go into big law (this is just my speculation) whereas at Boalt, it's split between PI/PS and big law. Those of us who wanted big law, got it. But again, it's a smaller percentage of each class that really wants big law, since a lot of Boalties are PI/PS focused.

This is absolutely not true and I am truly embarrassed that fellow students are giving false information to potential admits. I could have gone to either school, and honestly I would still have picked Boalt easily. To say that those who wanted Biglaw got it is so false its absurd. Lots of us, including myself are doing PI/PS and will be relying on LRAP not because its what we wanted, but because we are not snobby to turn down any work that does not leave a blank resume. I was well above median at OCI, Now in top 25% easily and I have no paid job and wanted Biglaw. I know plenty of others who went into OCI with Law Review or Top 25% grades and got absolutely nothing.

What I can say, is everyone including myself ended up getting some kind of work, albeit unpaid which I would consider awesome and prestigious. I want everyone to come to Boalt and do think it really holds its own with other law schools, this has been two of the best years of my life. Still, it really irks me when my classmates post patently false and deceptive information to incoming admits. Boalt is an awesome place, but I'm sick of 0Ls getting a deluded picture that whatever opportunity they want will be attainable to all students. We can all be enthusiastic about our school, but can we please stop lying to admits about our job prospects?

Thank You

I'm really sorry for your experience. I am by no means making light of it.

But I am not giving false information, either. I am giving my perspective, and you're free to give yours. So please don't accuse me of trying to be deceptive or whatever else you've said.

I am not being disingenuous when I say that I don't know anyone who wanted big law and didn't get it. I'm not making it up to conflate numbers or try to deceive 1Ls. The people in my mod, some I know from my supermod, and those on my journals - who I've associated with and bumped into during the last two years - all have jobs. And it's not a small number of people. I wish I could make a tally of everyone and where they're going, but unfortunately I can't. If you're aggressive in your search, start early, are flexible geographically, and target the whole Vault list - including firms who don't come to OCIP - you should be fine (and I am by no means saying you didn't do these things, so please don't take this personally). People who were "questionable" transcript wise started doing mailings over the summer before OCIP to firms that didn't come to campus and landed interviews before OCIP even began. You have to be proactive about this whole thing - it's your job search, your future - not the career office's.

*I count pre-OCIP interviews as part of OCIP, because this is advice that the career office gave to us *multiple* times throughout the year. Start early, be aggressive, line up interviews before OCIP begins.

[3ThrowAway99]

The TCR is Columbia with all other things being equal, plain and simple. If a person is sure they want to live and work in CA then I think Berkeley could make sense, but even then I suspect Columbia places similarly to Berkeley throughout most of CA. Berkeley is a great law school, but Columbia is a better law school, and has been a better school for a very long time. While I think there may be personal reasons that could reasonably lead someone to choose Berkeley over Columbia with both at sticker (pure personal preference reasons in addition to or aside from the regional preference question), the default position of the scale leans in favor of Columbia. These are not equal peer schools, even though they are both great law schools.


* The current estimated cost of attendance at both schools is 74k per year (assuming OOS for Berkeley).

** The above posting assumes that 'both at sticker' refers to Columbia at sticker v. Berkeley at OOS sticker. If Berkeley is in-state tuition then the analysis may be considerably different.

[cornellbeez]

Those of us who wanted big law, got it.

We shouldn't delude 0Ls. The market is still brutal, and apparently even 1/3 of Harvard struck out last year. (Not to mention, people who bid on California, including LA, had an especially difficult time unless they had really good grades or were IP-focused.)

It's not deluding 0Ls when it's true. Again, I stress that there's admittedly a smaller number of Boalties interested in big law since so many want public interest, so it's definitely not the same as an entire class of Harvard, for example, gunning for a few big law spots. But I can honestly say that every single person I know who wanted a big law job, got one. People took the economy seriously and applied up and down the entire Vault list, were geographically flexible, etc. People from CA who wanted the Bay Area applied all over the country and landed offers that they took in NY. No one was naive enough to only apply to the top 15 firms or the top firms in the Bay Area and think the jobs were theirs. People approached OCIP with caution, and I think it paid off. Biglaw does exist outside of the top 20 firms. 1-100 all start at 160k.

I've heard of a few transfers striking out, but I don't know them personally. The one transfer I know had 3 V20 offers to choose from.

Boalt historically places 11% into PI. That's not much higher than some other T-14 schools with better biglaw placement. I have no reason to think that the Class of 2012 is any different from previous classes.

Again, if most of your friends or people you associate with (again self-selecting group) have biglaw, that's great, but I bet there are a lot of people who don't have biglaw who never talk about it. Most of my friends have biglaw, but I'm not going to extrapolate from this that most of the class has biglaw. Unless you poll all 320 2Ls at Boalt (this number includes transfers), you can't say that "nobody" did this or "nobody" did that. I'm willing to put my money on Boalt2L's impressions, rather than yours, considering the most recent NLJ statistics, and the further decline of biglaw since then. If only 50% had "NLJ250" firms after going through OCIP a couple years ago, which counts firms that don't constitute biglaw anyway, and biglaw has shrunk since they had OCIP, I am willing to bet that, at the very least, less than half have biglaw.

As for applying up and down the Vault list, I question the effectiveness of this strategy if you don't have a unique background, as many people don't, including me. I did that, too, before OCI. It didn't help me at all though because I wasn't top 10% nor did I have a military or IP background. While I landed callbacks at ~1/2 of my OCI interviews, I didn't get a single callback from a biglaw firm after mailing in an application beforehand. Many of the firms simply ignored my application, and then sent me a rejection letter 4 months later.

I understand that you are providing your experiences, but your sample simply isn't a representative sample of the 2L population. And as I understand it, you have a unique background with impressive work experience, too, which many of us simply don't have.

[IzziesGal]

Those of us who wanted big law, got it.

We shouldn't delude 0Ls. The market is still brutal, and apparently even 1/3 of Harvard struck out last year. (Not to mention, people who bid on California, including LA, had an especially difficult time unless they had really good grades or were IP-focused.)

It's not deluding 0Ls when it's true. Again, I stress that there's admittedly a smaller number of Boalties interested in big law since so many want public interest, so it's definitely not the same as an entire class of Harvard, for example, gunning for a few big law spots. But I can honestly say that every single person I know who wanted a big law job, got one. People took the economy seriously and applied up and down the entire Vault list, were geographically flexible, etc. People from CA who wanted the Bay Area applied all over the country and landed offers that they took in NY. No one was naive enough to only apply to the top 15 firms or the top firms in the Bay Area and think the jobs were theirs. People approached OCIP with caution, and I think it paid off. Biglaw does exist outside of the top 20 firms. 1-100 all start at 160k.

I've heard of a few transfers striking out, but I don't know them personally. The one transfer I know had 3 V20 offers to choose from.

Boalt historically places 11% into PI. That's not much higher than some other T-14 schools with better biglaw placement. I have no reason to think that the Class of 2012 is any different from previous classes.

Again, if most of your friends or people you associate with (again self-selecting group) have biglaw, that's great, but I bet there are a lot of people who don't have biglaw who never talk about it. Most of my friends have biglaw, but I'm not going to extrapolate from this that most of the class has biglaw. Unless you poll all 320 2Ls at Boalt (this number includes transfers), you can't say that "nobody" did this or "nobody" did that. I'm willing to put my money on Boalt2L's impressions, rather than yours, considering the most recent NLJ statistics, and the further decline of biglaw since then. If only 50% had "NLJ250" firms after going through OCIP a couple years ago, which counts firms that don't constitute biglaw anyway, and biglaw has shrunk since they had OCIP, I am willing to bet that, at the very least, less than half have biglaw.

As for applying up and down the Vault list, I question the effectiveness of this strategy if you don't have a unique background, as many people don't, including me. I did that, too, before OCI. It didn't help me at all though because I wasn't top 10% nor did I have a military or IP background. While I landed callbacks at ~1/2 of my OCI interviews, I didn't get a single callback from a biglaw firm after mailing in an application beforehand. Many of the firms simply ignored my application, and then sent me a rejection letter 4 months later.

I understand that you are providing your experiences, but your sample simply isn't a representative sample of the 2L population. And as I understand it, you have a unique background with impressive work experience, too, which many of us simply don't have.

No worries. I hope I've done a good job of emphasizing that this is just my perspective and my experience based on the people I've met/known. I am giving one side of the coin, and others are certainly free to do the same. I don't want to get into a pissing contest with Boalt2L because I understand his point of view is legit for himself and others similarly situated- I just don't take kindly to people insinuating that I'm giving false information to 0Ls.

[Aberzombie1892]

Posting on behalf of a friend. My instinct is that, even though he liked Berkeley better and saw himself being happier there, he's really sacrificing job placement/a safety net by making this decision, particularly given that he doesn't know what kind of law or where he wants to practice. He had a weird cycle and came out with literally these two (great!) acceptances. Tough call. Thoughts? Career suicide or a wise, self-aware decision?

Okay.

Does he/she have ties to CA?

Both schools will get you back to where you have ties to plus NYC, so CA would be the turning factor.

If your friend has no ties to CA, attending Columbia won't help him/her get CA. If he/she wants CA, he/she should attend Berkeley.

If your friend has ties to CA, then he/she should attend Columbia every day of the week (and twice on Sundays). This is because no doors would be closed by attending Columbia, and historically employers will go marginally deeper into Columbia's class.