Under what circumstances should one attend law school? Forum

[AreJay711]

Law school from a pure investment side is pretty good depending where you would be otherwise. The thing is you'd have to not hate being a lawyer for it actually to be worth it.

[niederbomb]

1. Has a grounded sense of what being an average lawyer is like.

2. Wants to be a lawyer and understands that there is a high likelihood they will be an average lawyer.

3. Is going to the right school for the right price.*

*My ballpark estimate of the right price is something like T200 (0 debt), T50 (80k debt), T18 (120k debt), T12 (150k debt), T6 (200k debt), T3 (500k debt). These debt levels are under the assumption that scholarships have stipulations that are less than median or no stipulations at all.

Pretty solid for the most part. But, personally, I would never waste 3 years attending a school ranked below Minnesota, regardless of the money.

Anything besides HYSCC at sticker is probably a bad choice.

Since when would one have to take out $500K in debt to attend HYS?

[pilchc]

Since when would one have to take out $500K in debt to attend HYS?

I don't think anyone does. If we assume that no one does, then we can logically conclude that bk187 feels that anyone who meets the first three requirements should attend HYS if given the opportunity.

[mettasutta]

Pretty solid for the most part. But, personally, I would never waste 3 years attending a school ranked below Minnesota, regardless of the money.

Seems like a rather arbitrary cut-off point, considering that many schools that just so happen to be ranked lower than Minnesota have as good or superior placement stats (i.e. BC, BU, Fordham, ND, etc.) They may not be the greatest choices at sticker price, but if you get substantial merit aid and want to practice in the regions they feed into, they are solid options.

[bk1]

1. Has a grounded sense of what being an average lawyer is like.

2. Wants to be a lawyer and understands that there is a high likelihood they will be an average lawyer.

3. Is going to the right school for the right price.*

*My ballpark estimate of the right price is something like T200 (0 debt), T50 (80k debt), T18 (120k debt), T12 (150k debt), T6 (200k debt), T3 (500k debt). These debt levels are under the assumption that scholarships have stipulations that are less than median or no stipulations at all.

Pretty solid for the most part. But, personally, I would never waste 3 years attending a school ranked below Minnesota, regardless of the money.

Anything besides HYSCC at sticker is probably a bad choice.

Since when would one have to take out $500K in debt to attend HYS?

The 500k thing was a joke.

If someone satisfied requirements 1 and 2 but couldn't get any of the above mentioned price ranges other than a TTTT at 0-30k debt then I would be okay with advocating them going to that school (assuming they had little to no stipulations on their scholly). I think I differ in this regard to many on TLS.

[northwood]

1. Has a grounded sense of what being an average lawyer is like.

2. Wants to be a lawyer and understands that there is a high likelihood they will be an average lawyer.

3. Is going to the right school for the right price.*

*My ballpark estimate of the right price is something like T200 (0 debt), T50 (80k debt), T18 (120k debt), T12 (150k debt), T6 (200k debt), T3 (500k debt). These debt levels are under the assumption that scholarships have stipulations that are less than median or no stipulations at all.

Pretty solid for the most part. But, personally, I would never waste 3 years attending a school ranked below Minnesota, regardless of the money.

I agree with BK here.
Go to law school knowing full well that you may end up graduating at median- and will be happy living in that city for the next 20 years
Anything besides HYSCC at sticker is probably a bad choice.

Since when would one have to take out $500K in debt to attend HYS?

The 500k thing was a joke.

If someone satisfied requirements 1 and 2 but couldn't get any of the above mentioned price ranges other than a TTTT at 0-30k debt then I would be okay with advocating them going to that school (assuming they had little to no stipulations on their scholly). I think I differ in this regard to many on TLS.

[niederbomb]

Pretty solid for the most part. But, personally, I would never waste 3 years attending a school ranked below Minnesota, regardless of the money.

Seems like a rather arbitrary cut-off point, considering that many schools that just so happen to be ranked lower than Minnesota have as good or superior placement stats (i.e. BC, BU, Fordham, ND, etc.) They may not be the greatest choices at sticker price, but if you get substantial merit aid and want to practice in the regions they feed into, they are solid options.

Fordham? No way. Mid tier 1 competing in the same market that Harvard and Columbia dominate? I'd much rather attend a similarly ranked regional school, like the University of Georgia.

BU might be ok for some people with a full ride; I wasn't purporting to make an objective statement. I PERSONALLY would not wish to waste 3 years attending a school that is not either T10 or a T20 that dominates its market, as Minnesota does and BU/BC/Fordham do not. Part of it comes down to a prestige issue, and what if I want to do something besides law later?

If you're top of your class at Fordham, you might get hired in an office where you're working with a bunch of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Penn grads. If you're top of your class at Minnesota, you might get into a top (although mid-sized compared to NYC) firm in the Twin Cities where everyone at the office comes from your school or below. In which situation would you rather find yourself?

[bk1]

Fordham? No way. Mid tier 1 competing in the same market that Harvard and Columbia dominate? I'd much rather attend a similarly ranked regional school, like the University of Georgia.

BU might be ok for some people with a full ride; I wasn't purporting to make an objective statement. I PERSONALLY would not wish to waste 3 years attending a school that is not either T10 or a T20 that dominates its market, as Minnesota does and BU/BC/Fordham do not. Part of it comes down to a prestige issue, and what if I want to do something besides law later?

If you're top of your class at Fordham, you might get hired in an office where you're working with a bunch of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Penn grads. If you're top of your class at Minnesota, you might get into a top (although mid-sized compared to NYC) firm in the Twin Cities where everyone at the office comes from your school or below. In which situation would you rather find yourself?

BU/BC do dominate their market. They are also in a much larger market than Minnesota which is something that needs to be factored in when comparing something like Fordham versus Minnesota at equal cost.

[geoduck]

Fordham? No way. Mid tier 1 competing in the same market that Harvard and Columbia dominate? I'd much rather attend a similarly ranked regional school, like the University of Georgia.
BU might be ok for some people with a full ride; I wasn't purporting to make an objective statement. I PERSONALLY would not wish to waste 3 years attending a school that is not either T10 or a T20 that dominates its market, as Minnesota does and BU/BC/Fordham do not. Part of it comes down to a prestige issue, and what if I want to do something besides law later?
If you're top of your class at Fordham, you might get hired in an office where you're working with a bunch of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Penn grads. If you're top of your class at Minnesota, you might get into a top (although mid-sized compared to NYC) firm in the Twin Cities where everyone at the office comes from your school or below. In which situation would you rather find yourself?

Dude. This is TLS. They have this raging hard-on for BU/BC/Fordham and a massive Atlantic bias. Of course they'll insist that the top 30 is something to be proud of.

[bk1]

Dude. This is TLS. They have this raging hard-on for BU/BC/Fordham and a massive Atlantic bias. Of course they'll insist that the top 30 is something to be proud of.

At equal cost, BU/BC/Fordham are a much better deal than any non-T18 school, and by a significant margin.

While TLS is definitely NYC biased it isn't the bias recommending those schools, it is the cold hard facts of better employment stats.

[geoduck]

Dude. This is TLS. They have this raging hard-on for BU/BC/Fordham and a massive Atlantic bias. Of course they'll insist that the top 30 is something to be proud of.

At equal cost, BU/BC/Fordham are a much better deal than any non-T18 school, and by a significant margin.

While TLS is definitely NYC biased it isn't the bias recommending those schools, it is the cold hard facts of better employment stats.

Fordham has an average median starting salary of $91k according to Forbes magazine. UMN has a starting of $85k, BC is at $77,2k and BC is at $75,6k. All four have low unemployment rates and high firm placement according to law school transparency, recruiter prestige rankings and big law recruitment ranking. Would you rather have $91k in NY than $85k in Minneapolis? Hint: Real estate/rent costs literally 3+ times as much in New York.

Edit: Plus Massachusetts and New York already have leading schools and don't need BC/BU/Fordham. They're called Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

[niederbomb]

Dude. This is TLS. They have this raging hard-on for BU/BC/Fordham and a massive Atlantic bias. Of course they'll insist that the top 30 is something to be proud of.

At equal cost, BU/BC/Fordham are a much better deal than any non-T18 school, and by a significant margin.

While TLS is definitely NYC biased it isn't the bias recommending those schools, it is the cold hard facts of better employment stats.

You mean better NLJ 250 placement due to those 3 schools' location. If we're just talking employment stats, Minn wins. And for those who don't get Big Law (the vast majority at all four of these schools), are they better off working small law in NYC or small law in a regional market where small/mid law is the norm, COL is much lower and relative prestige is greater?

Now here is the only argument that matters: Who is more likely to get laid? A Minn grad working at the top firm in St. Paul or a Fordham grad working at an objectively more prestigious firm in NYC (assuming equal looks and game)?

[niederbomb]

Dude. This is TLS. They have this raging hard-on for BU/BC/Fordham and a massive Atlantic bias. Of course they'll insist that the top 30 is something to be proud of.

At equal cost, BU/BC/Fordham are a much better deal than any non-T18 school, and by a significant margin.

While TLS is definitely NYC biased it isn't the bias recommending those schools, it is the cold hard facts of better employment stats.

Fordham has an average median starting salary of $91k according to Forbes magazine. UMN has a starting of $85k, BC is at $77,2k and BC is at $75,6k. All four have low unemployment rates and high firm placement according to law school transparency, recruiter prestige rankings and big law recruitment ranking. Would you rather have $91k in NY than $85k in Minneapolis? Hint: Real estate/rent costs literally 3+ times as much in New York.

Edit: Plus Massachusetts and New York already have leading schools and don't need BC/BU/Fordham. They're called Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

+1, and Stanford, Yale, Penn, UVA, Michigan, Duke, and Cornell.

[geoduck]

Dude. This is TLS. They have this raging hard-on for BU/BC/Fordham and a massive Atlantic bias. Of course they'll insist that the top 30 is something to be proud of.

At equal cost, BU/BC/Fordham are a much better deal than any non-T18 school, and by a significant margin.

While TLS is definitely NYC biased it isn't the bias recommending those schools, it is the cold hard facts of better employment stats.

You mean better NLJ 250 placement due to those 3 schools' location. If we're just talking employment stats, Minn wins. And for those who don't get Big Law (the vast majority at all four of these schools), are they better off working small law in NYC or small law in a regional market where small/mid law is the norm, COL is much lower and relative prestige is greater?

Now here is the only argument that matters: Who is more likely to get laid? A Minn grad working at the top firm in St. Paul or a Fordham grad working at an objectively more prestigious firm in NYC (assuming equal looks and game)?

St. Paul lawyer. $85k buys a lot of penthouse in the Twin Cities and a lot of Scandinavian poontang. $91k in New York buys a parking space in Brooklyn.

[bk1]

Fordham has an average median starting salary of $91k according to Forbes magazine. UMN has a starting of $85k, BC is at $77,2k and BC is at $75,6k. All four have low unemployment rates and high firm placement according to law school transparency, recruiter prestige rankings and big law recruitment ranking. Would you rather have $91k in NY than $85k in Minneapolis? Hint: Real estate/rent costs literally 3+ times as much in New York.

Edit: Plus Massachusetts and New York already have leading schools and don't need BC/BU/Fordham. They're called Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

Are you smoking crack? There is so much wrong with your analysis.

1. The Forbes thing was from self-reported data on payscale.com. There are so many faults with it. USF as the 20th best school? If that doesn't have you screaming LOLOLOLOLOL then I don't know what will.

2. You really think most Harvard grads are staying in Boston over going elsewhere? Facepalm. I bet you think finding work in CT is hard because Yale happens to be there...

[bk1]

+1, and Stanford, Yale, Penn, UVA, Michigan, Duke, and Cornell.

Yes Fordham is behind a lot of other schools, we get it. NYC is also far larger than the MN legal market and it is stupid to not factor that in.

[bk1]

St. Paul lawyer. $85k buys a lot of penthouse in the Twin Cities and a lot of Scandinavian poontang. $91k in New York buys a parking space in Brooklyn.

lulz at those numbers. Bimodal salary distribution, maybe you've heard of it?

[ndirish2010]

St. Paul lawyer. $85k buys a lot of penthouse in the Twin Cities and a lot of Scandinavian poontang. $91k in New York buys a parking space in Brooklyn.

lulz at those numbers. Bimodal salary distribution, maybe you've heard of it?

There are actually a lot of firms in secondary markets that pay 90-115K. Regurgitation of 'bimodal salary distribution' is nice though.

[geoduck]

Fordham has an average median starting salary of $91k according to Forbes magazine. UMN has a starting of $85k, BC is at $77,2k and BC is at $75,6k. All four have low unemployment rates and high firm placement according to law school transparency, recruiter prestige rankings and big law recruitment ranking. Would you rather have $91k in NY than $85k in Minneapolis? Hint: Real estate/rent costs literally 3+ times as much in New York.

Edit: Plus Massachusetts and New York already have leading schools and don't need BC/BU/Fordham. They're called Harvard, Columbia, and NYU.

Are you smoking crack? There is so much wrong with your analysis.

1. The Forbes thing was from self-reported data on payscale.com. There are so many faults with it. USF as the 20th best school? If that doesn't have you screaming LOLOLOLOLOL then I don't know what will.

2. You really think most Harvard grads are staying in Boston over going elsewhere? Facepalm. I bet you think finding work in CT is hard because Yale happens to be there...

It isn't ranked, as you can see. It's direct dollars. That's a pretty piss poor rate in San Francisco, as is $91k in NYC. Now Columbia's $157k, that'll actually pay for NYC living. And according to law school transparency, ~12% of Harvard grads stay in New England. True, 55% of BC grads and 48% of BU grads stay there. Bet they aren't getting better jobs than the Harvard grads sticking around.

[geoduck]

St. Paul lawyer. $85k buys a lot of penthouse in the Twin Cities and a lot of Scandinavian poontang. $91k in New York buys a parking space in Brooklyn.

lulz at those numbers. Bimodal salary distribution, maybe you've heard of it?

I guess you're right.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/us/12parking.html

The Fordham grad would have to take a mortgage to get that parking space.

[bk1]

It isn't ranked, as you can see. It's direct dollars. That's a pretty piss poor rate in San Francisco, as is $91k in NYC. Now Columbia's $157k, that'll actually pay for NYC living. And according to law school transparency, ~12% of Harvard grads stay in New England. True, 55% of BC grads and 48% of BU grads stay there. Bet they aren't getting better jobs than the Harvard grads sticking around.

My point is that the 91k median salary for USF grads within 5 years is blatantly false. I know USF grads with 10+ years experience who are lucky to be making that kind of money. I mean c'mon, in 2009 over 50% of USF's class were working as part time contract attorneys 9 months out of graduation. And yet they somehow have a median of $91k? Yeah that whole Forbes/Payscale thing is complete bullshit.

Don't take this to mean that I think the USNWR numbers are the truth, I'm just pointing out that using the Forbes/Payscale data as if it were reality is a foolish notion.

Yes, Harvard grads may get the best jobs in MA, but BU/BC grads are getting a majority of the good jobs in MA and that is what counts.

[bk1]

There are actually a lot of firms in secondary markets that pay 90-115K. Regurgitation of 'bimodal salary distribution' is nice though.

I actually agree with you and there are a decent amount and yes it does close a large part of the gap between a school like Minnesota and those like BU/BC. That being said, the gap between the firms paying 90k to those paying 40k in a secondary market still exists. So while there may be kids in St. Paul biglaw making 90-120k, the midlaw range for the area (something like 70k) is still going to be scarce compared to the bottom range of 40k or so.

[geoduck]

It isn't ranked, as you can see. It's direct dollars. That's a pretty piss poor rate in San Francisco, as is $91k in NYC. Now Columbia's $157k, that'll actually pay for NYC living. And according to law school transparency, ~12% of Harvard grads stay in New England. True, 55% of BC grads and 48% of BU grads stay there. Bet they aren't getting better jobs than the Harvard grads sticking around.

My point is that the 91k median salary for USF grads within 5 years is blatantly false. I know USF grads with 10+ years experience who are lucky to be making that kind of money. I mean c'mon, in 2009 over 50% of USF's class were working as part time contract attorneys 9 months out of graduation. And yet they somehow have a median of $91k? Yeah that whole Forbes/Payscale thing is complete bullshit.

Don't take this to mean that I think the USNWR numbers are the truth, I'm just pointing out that using the Forbes/Payscale data as if it were reality is a foolish notion.

Yes, Harvard grads may get the best jobs in MA, but BU/BC grads are getting a majority of the good jobs in MA and that is what counts.

Maybe, but how can you say than BC or BU own the market when you are listing two names? UMN owns its market. The next best school in state is what... University of Saint Thomas? That's a joke. And only 52% of UMN students choose to stay in the region, so they aren't stuck there by any means.

True that the Forbes thing isn't perfect, but it's no worse than what the schools put out there. The fact that UMN grads maintain similar and/or better salaries than the aforementioned schools when the Minneapolis market place has such a significantly lower cost of living to New England/NY says a lot of good about UMN. It's a certainly reasonable to put the cutoff at Top 20.

[bk1]

Maybe, but how can you say than BC or BU own the market when you are listing two names? UMN owns its market. The next best school in state is what... University of Saint Thomas? That's a joke. And only 52% of UMN students choose to stay in the region, so they aren't stuck there by any means.

True that the Forbes thing isn't perfect, but it's no worse than what the schools put out there. The fact that UMN grads maintain similar and/or better salaries than the aforementioned schools when the Minneapolis market place has such a significantly lower cost of living to New England/NY says a lot of good about UMN. It's a certainly reasonable to put the cutoff at Top 20.

As I said before, owning a market is all well and good but you can't discount the size of the market. If the Boston market were (hypothetically) 4 times the size of the Minnesota market, then sharing Boston between 2 schools (BU/BC) would be better than being top dog in Minnesota because you would still have twice the amount of jobs for each of BU/BC than you do for just Minnesota.

You're right, the Forbes thing is about as helpful as what the schools have put out. So yay, they're both shit. Why are we referencing either of them? Thankfully we have LST and the NLJ to actually give us some salary data that has meaning (e.g. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681).

[geoduck]

Maybe, but how can you say than BC or BU own the market when you are listing two names? UMN owns its market. The next best school in state is what... University of Saint Thomas? That's a joke. And only 52% of UMN students choose to stay in the region, so they aren't stuck there by any means.

True that the Forbes thing isn't perfect, but it's no worse than what the schools put out there. The fact that UMN grads maintain similar and/or better salaries than the aforementioned schools when the Minneapolis market place has such a significantly lower cost of living to New England/NY says a lot of good about UMN. It's a certainly reasonable to put the cutoff at Top 20.

As I said before, owning a market is all well and good but you can't discount the size of the market. If the Boston market were (hypothetically) 4 times the size of the Minnesota market, then sharing Boston between 2 schools (BU/BC) would be better than being top dog in Minnesota because you would still have twice the amount of jobs for each of BU/BC than you do for just Minnesota.

You're right, the Forbes thing is about as helpful as what the schools have put out. So yay, they're both shit. Why are we referencing either of them? Thankfully we have LST and the NLJ to actually give us some salary data that has meaning (e.g. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681).

What I find interesting about that data is how many PT jobs BU grads are taking. Definitely not the most important thing on the page, but it piques my interest. Again though, cost of living can't be discounted.

Assuming these links work...

http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=8 ... 2=52507000
http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=8 ... 2=53651000

I used the imaginary base rate of $85k for Minneapolis. You'd have to make $132,5k in Boston or $136,7k in NYC for the same standard of living. Reverse it and take $160k in Boston. You would only have to make $102k in Minneapolis. And there are people who pull in more than that starting there.