BYU v Utah v Wake Forest Forum

[bergg007]

Dude, go to Wake.

We can Mormon it up together!!! If you are committed to the Utah market go to utah, I say this as a huge BYU fan, but I live really close to Utah's law school and my Landlord is a U Law grad and it is way easier and frienlier than the Y. The Y is more Portable and you learn more but it is cutthroat because overqualified mormon gunners go there and jack up the curve, plus I'm sure you've heard stories of people ripping pages out of the law books in the library for an edge. The Y is a way better school, but you'll be happier from the U. I was just at wake, infact I'm in the ATL airport flying home as i write this, and I loved it. I'm leaning heavily towards wake right now. So, yeah, Wake is awesome and the U is easy.

[bigkahuna2020]

Notice I said "has significant trouble." If you have great connections you can be last in your class at Cooley and get a job. The fact is, however, that MOST of the kids who are median at a T1 or T2 are in for a world of hurt. I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong in this matter, but I'm in a much better position than most of these kids and I'm still shitting my pants.

Noone I know has had significant trouble, but it might just be my perception of what this means. The job market is tough, and you have to grind to get leads. If you are shitting your pants at UPenn about getting a decent job, get out there and network man. Talk to legal staffing agencies in the region (they usually have the connections to good small firms that are hard to find). Basically, be a man and do your legwork.

[jdemmitt]

Dude, go to Wake.

We can Mormon it up together!!! If you are committed to the Utah market go to utah, I say this as a huge BYU fan, but I live really close to Utah's law school and my Landlord is a U Law grad and it is way easier and frienlier than the Y. The Y is more Portable and you learn more but it is cutthroat because overqualified mormon gunners go there and jack up the curve, plus I'm sure you've heard stories of people ripping pages out of the law books in the library for an edge. The Y is a way better school, but you'll be happier from the U. I was just at wake, infact I'm in the ATL airport flying home as i write this, and I loved it. I'm leaning heavily towards wake right now. So, yeah, Wake is awesome and the U is easy.

I like that attitude. Also, you are going to miss the byu game, no!
I really liked wake, but the loans makes me nervous. If my wife can land a decent job, then I will feel better.

[Veyron]

Notice I said "has significant trouble." If you have great connections you can be last in your class at Cooley and get a job. The fact is, however, that MOST of the kids who are median at a T1 or T2 are in for a world of hurt. I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong in this matter, but I'm in a much better position than most of these kids and I'm still shitting my pants.

Noone I know has had significant trouble, but it might just be my perception of what this means. The job market is tough, and you have to grind to get leads. If you are shitting your pants at UPenn about getting a decent job, get out there and network man. Talk to legal staffing agencies in the region (they usually have the connections to good small firms that are hard to find). Basically, be a man and do your legwork.

Dude, fuck legal agencies. I've been having lunch and coffee with the NLJ 250 partners/former partners/of council in my network. I have midlaw and managing partners at big and midlaw firms waiting on my resume. When I said that I'm in a better position than most of the people you mentioned, I mean in all possible ways.

I am STILL shitting my pants. The entry level market is extremely tight. Many firms, especially outside of NYC, are only taking 1 or 2 summers. Many are extremely grade conscious (and my grades aren't bad, but firms are spoiled right now).

To service law school debt and live comfortably you need about 80k a year min (+ benefits). The simple fact is that that is a lot of money to be paying someone with no experience in the field who will have to be trained extensively and expensively. If you aren't the cream of the crop, you need not apply.

My target market is very similar to charolotte as far as size and selectivity are concerned. I do understand that things may be different in truly rural markets, however.

[bigkahuna2020]

Dude, fuck legal agencies. I've been having lunch and coffee with the NLJ 250 partners/former partners/of council in my network. I have midlaw and managing partners at big and midlaw firms waiting on my resume. When I said that I'm in a better position than most of the people you mentioned, I mean in all possible ways.

I am STILL shitting my pants. The entry level market is extremely tight. Many firms, especially outside of NYC, are only taking 1 or 2 summers. Many are extremely grade conscious (and my grades aren't bad, but firms are spoiled right now).

To service law school debt and live comfortably you need about 80k a year min (+ benefits). The simple fact is that that is a lot of money to be paying someone with no experience in the field who will have to be trained extensively and expensively. If you aren't the cream of the crop, you need not apply.

My target market is very similar to charolotte as far as size and selectivity are concerned. I do understand that things may be different in truly rural markets, however.

Maybe you need to take less stool softener then. Life is tough. And the OP doesn't need as much money to service his debt as I am assuming you do.

[esq]

Dude, go to Wake.

We can Mormon it up together!!! If you are committed to the Utah market go to utah, I say this as a huge BYU fan, but I live really close to Utah's law school and my Landlord is a U Law grad and it is way easier and frienlier than the Y. The Y is more Portable and you learn more but it is cutthroat because overqualified mormon gunners go there and jack up the curve, plus I'm sure you've heard stories of people ripping pages out of the law books in the library for an edge. The Y is a way better school, but you'll be happier from the U. I was just at wake, infact I'm in the ATL airport flying home as i write this, and I loved it. I'm leaning heavily towards wake right now. So, yeah, Wake is awesome and the U is easy.

Did I just get Jimmered? Just don't go become a fan of Wake basketball while you're out there. Teams from North Carolina piss me off.

[Veyron]

Dude, fuck legal agencies. I've been having lunch and coffee with the NLJ 250 partners/former partners/of council in my network. I have midlaw and managing partners at big and midlaw firms waiting on my resume. When I said that I'm in a better position than most of the people you mentioned, I mean in all possible ways.

I am STILL shitting my pants. The entry level market is extremely tight. Many firms, especially outside of NYC, are only taking 1 or 2 summers. Many are extremely grade conscious (and my grades aren't bad, but firms are spoiled right now).

To service law school debt and live comfortably you need about 80k a year min (+ benefits). The simple fact is that that is a lot of money to be paying someone with no experience in the field who will have to be trained extensively and expensively. If you aren't the cream of the crop, you need not apply.

My target market is very similar to charolotte as far as size and selectivity are concerned. I do understand that things may be different in truly rural markets, however.

Maybe you need to take less stool softener then. Life is tough. And the OP doesn't need as much money to service his debt as I am assuming you do.

No, it looks like our debt loads will be comparable. As far as worrying less, I'm not super good at math but it doesn't take a 3rd grader to know that there is a huge imbalance between entry-level legal jobs that pay a decent wage and law school graduates.

[jdemmitt]

At worst, I should walk away with 100k. If my wife gets a decent job or my parents kick in then it will be significantly less. All is tbd of course. Thanks for all the advice.

[Aberzombie1892]

To service law school debt and live comfortably you need about 80k a year min (+ benefits). The simple fact is that that is a lot of money to be paying someone with no experience in the field who will have to be trained extensively and expensively. If you aren't the cream of the crop, you need not apply.

My target market is very similar to charolotte as far as size and selectivity are concerned. I do understand that things may be different in truly rural markets, however.

You need $80,000 to service law school debt? It's not possible to lay out a blanket number for so many reasons I'm not going to list them.

Basically, if you weren't looking at jobs at $60,000 a year pre-law school, going to a decent law school while keeping your debt under $100,000 is a good decision.

A big part of choosing and going to law school is being responsible. Going six figures into debt for a school that isn't HYSCCN is generally not responsible. Not for big law. Not for public interest. This is primarily because most pre-law students don't know what they want to do (regardless of what they think). While LRAPS in the T14 can be great, you are not certain that you will enter a particular field post graduation. Thus, taking $200,000 of debt for public interest is a bad idea because you may not actually end up wanting public interest. Thus, even for public interest, minimizing debt is the priority.

[Veyron]

To service law school debt and live comfortably you need about 80k a year min (+ benefits). The simple fact is that that is a lot of money to be paying someone with no experience in the field who will have to be trained extensively and expensively. If you aren't the cream of the crop, you need not apply.

My target market is very similar to charolotte as far as size and selectivity are concerned. I do understand that things may be different in truly rural markets, however.

You need $80,000 to service law school debt? It's not possible to lay out a blanket number for so many reasons I'm not going to list them.

Basically, if you weren't looking at jobs at $60,000 a year pre-law school, going to a decent law school while keeping your debt under $100,000 is a good decision.

A big part of choosing and going to law school is being responsible. Going six figures into debt for a school that isn't HYSCCN is generally not responsible. Not for big law. Not for public interest. This is primarily because most pre-law students don't know what they want to do (regardless of what they think). While LRAPS in the T14 can be great, you are not certain that you will enter a particular field post graduation. Thus, taking $200,000 of debt for public interest is a bad idea because you may not actually end up wanting public interest. Thus, even for public interest, minimizing debt is the priority.

Servicing 140k in debt at federal interest rates runs about 20k a year (thought wake was slightly more expensive). Soooo...

You make 80k, you pay 20k on your loans but, since loans are not tax deductible you are taxed at 80k. Therefore, you clear about 40k after tax and loan payments. Given the lack of job security in the legal field, I'd say that's the minimum to live a decent lifestyle + save for career transitions.

[NCtoDC]

To service law school debt and live comfortably you need about 80k a year min (+ benefits). The simple fact is that that is a lot of money to be paying someone with no experience in the field who will have to be trained extensively and expensively. If you aren't the cream of the crop, you need not apply.

My target market is very similar to charolotte as far as size and selectivity are concerned. I do understand that things may be different in truly rural markets, however.

You need $80,000 to service law school debt? It's not possible to lay out a blanket number for so many reasons I'm not going to list them.

Basically, if you weren't looking at jobs at $60,000 a year pre-law school, going to a decent law school while keeping your debt under $100,000 is a good decision.

A big part of choosing and going to law school is being responsible. Going six figures into debt for a school that isn't HYSCCN is generally not responsible. Not for big law. Not for public interest. This is primarily because most pre-law students don't know what they want to do (regardless of what they think). While LRAPS in the T14 can be great, you are not certain that you will enter a particular field post graduation. Thus, taking $200,000 of debt for public interest is a bad idea because you may not actually end up wanting public interest. Thus, even for public interest, minimizing debt is the priority.

Servicing 140k in debt at federal interest rates runs about 20k a year (thought wake was slightly more expensive). Soooo...

You make 80k, you pay 20k on your loans but, since loans are not tax deductible you are taxed at 80k. Therefore, you clear about 40k after tax and loan payments. Given the lack of job security in the legal field, I'd say that's the minimum to live a decent lifestyle + save for career transitions.

Interest is tax deductible though

[bigkahuna2020]

No, it looks like our debt loads will be comparable. As far as worrying less, I'm not super good at math but it doesn't take a 3rd grader to know that there is a huge imbalance between entry-level legal jobs that pay a decent wage and law school graduates.

Wait, do you seriously think that even at a small firm you will be making the same 50-60k halfway into your ten year debt service? If you are THAT afraid of your ability to attract business and move up the salary ranks---don't become a lawyer

[Veyron]

No, it looks like our debt loads will be comparable. As far as worrying less, I'm not super good at math but it doesn't take a 3rd grader to know that there is a huge imbalance between entry-level legal jobs that pay a decent wage and law school graduates.

Wait, do you seriously think that even at a small firm you will be making the same 50-60k halfway into your ten year debt service? If you are THAT afraid of your ability to attract business and move up the salary ranks---don't become a lawyer

Most attorneys only stay at their first firm for 2-4 years before being pushed out. Often those attorneys go to the gvmt or a smaller firm that pays on a lower scale or can't find a legal job and exit the profession its not as if your salary is a story of constant increase. Now, maybe this isn't the case at small firms but small firms don't do much entry level hiring

Interest is tax deductible though

Only up to 2,500 a year. Sorry to shit on your parade.

[bigkahuna2020]

Most attorneys only stay at their first firm for 2-4 years before being pushed out. Often those attorneys go to the gvmt or a smaller firm that pays on a lower scale or can't find a legal job and exit the profession its not as if your salary is a story of constant increase. Now, maybe this isn't the case at small firms but small firms don't do much entry level hiring

Um...yes they do. Maybe not out of OCI, but certainly they are major employers of lawyers after they pass the bar. I personally know that every law firm with under 40 lawyers I know of hires out of law school, after passing the bar. Most offices also interview at one or two local T1's/T2's

And when you are at a small firm, you grow your contacts continuously and take a cut of this business

If you can't do that, you are cut out for biglaw or bust, or shouldn't go to law school

[Veyron]

Most attorneys only stay at their first firm for 2-4 years before being pushed out. Often those attorneys go to the gvmt or a smaller firm that pays on a lower scale or can't find a legal job and exit the profession its not as if your salary is a story of constant increase. Now, maybe this isn't the case at small firms but small firms don't do much entry level hiring

Um...yes they do. Maybe not out of OCI, but certainly they are major employers of lawyers after they pass the bar. I personally know that every law firm with under 40 lawyers I know of hires out of law school, after passing the bar. Most offices also interview at one or two local T1's/T2's

And when you are at a small firm, you grow your contacts continuously and take a cut of this business

If you can't do that, you are cut out for biglaw or bust, or shouldn't go to law school

Do firms with under 40 lawyers hire out of law school - absolutely. Are they a large source of jobs ITE, not so much. Also, most small firms aren't paying 80k to entry levels anyway. Now, you want to figure out what your net is after 20k in debt and taxes on a 40-60k salary, go right ahead.

Furthermore, by hook and crook I've managed to get my hands on the OCI list of my market's T1s. Guess what, all of 2, yes two, small firms interview there.

[NCtoDC]

You seem to be a very unhappy person...2500 may not seem like a lot but an extra 200 dollars a month is a good bit of money if you ask me. Everyone has different perspectives in regards to money and how much is enough to be comfortable.

[Veyron]

You seem to be a very unhappy person...2500 may not seem like a lot but an extra 200 dollars a month is a good bit of money if you ask me. Everyone has different perspectives in regards to money and how much is enough to be comfortable.

You DO understand how tax deductions work, right? Its not like the government PAYS you 2500, its just 2500 of income that you don't have to pay TAXES on. You need to grow up and learn how finances work before making this major life decision.

[bigkahuna2020]

Do firms with under 40 lawyers hire out of law school - absolutely. Are they a large source of jobs ITE, not so much. Also, most small firms aren't paying 80k to entry levels anyway. Now, you want to figure out what your net is after 20k in debt and taxes on a 40-60k salary, go right ahead.

I can only speak for the NY and PA/NJ markets---but they are certainly a large part of law school hiring ESPECIALLY at non-T14s.

[Veyron]

Do firms with under 40 lawyers hire out of law school - absolutely. Are they a large source of jobs ITE, not so much. Also, most small firms aren't paying 80k to entry levels anyway. Now, you want to figure out what your net is after 20k in debt and taxes on a 40-60k salary, go right ahead.

I can only speak for the NY and PA/NJ markets---but they are certainly a large part of law school hiring ESPECIALLY at non-T14s.

I admit not super well versed in those markets. However, at least in mine, they tend to hire more experienced attorneys and an entry level once in a blue moon. Again, they also pay far less than 80k to start.

[NCtoDC]

You seem to be a very unhappy person...2500 may not seem like a lot but an extra 200 dollars a month is a good bit of money if you ask me. Everyone has different perspectives in regards to money and how much is enough to be comfortable.

You DO understand how tax deductions work, right? Its not like the government PAYS you 2500, its just 2500 of income that you don't have to pay TAXES on. You are getting tax deductions and tax write-offs confused. You need to grow up and learn how finances work before making this major life decision.

Well, that isn't as glamorous then is it? Nonetheless you are still an unhappy person. You don't have to be a douchebag to make your point all the time.

[bigkahuna2020]

Do firms with under 40 lawyers hire out of law school - absolutely. Are they a large source of jobs ITE, not so much. Also, most small firms aren't paying 80k to entry levels anyway. Now, you want to figure out what your net is after 20k in debt and taxes on a 40-60k salary, go right ahead.

I can only speak for the NY and PA/NJ markets---but they are certainly a large part of law school hiring ESPECIALLY at non-T14s.

I admit not super well versed in those markets. However, at least in mine, they tend to hire more experienced attorneys and an entry level once in a blue moon. Again, they also pay far less than 80k to start.

Many---and I mean many, specialized firms hire after bar passage...labor law firm I know does that exclusively, as does a personal injury/pharma liability firm I know (largely from a single school) and hire to train and work...these firms tend to be partner heavy, start at 55-65k but escalate quickly if you can work quickly or attract clients (obviously PI for the former and labor for the latter)...this is pretty common in especially the northern NJ, NYC and LI market

[Veyron]

You seem to be a very unhappy person...2500 may not seem like a lot but an extra 200 dollars a month is a good bit of money if you ask me. Everyone has different perspectives in regards to money and how much is enough to be comfortable.

You DO understand how tax deductions work, right? Its not like the government PAYS you 2500, its just 2500 of income that you don't have to pay TAXES on. You are getting tax deductions and tax write-offs confused. You need to grow up and learn how finances work before making this major life decision.

Well, that isn't as glamorous then is it? Nonetheless you are still an unhappy person. You don't have to be a douchebag to make your point all the time.

Meh, most people on this site are trained from birth to believe that they are special, special little snowflakes who can get anything they want by positive thinking. Only assholeishness has any hope of getting a point contrary to that training across.

Many---and I mean many, specialized firms hire after bar passage...labor law firm I know does that exclusively, as does a personal injury/pharma liability firm I know (largely from a single school) and hire to train and work...these firms tend to be partner heavy, start at 55-65k but escalate quickly if you can work quickly or attract clients (obviously PI for the former and labor for the latter)...this is pretty common in especially the northern NJ, NYC and LI market

I have heard this from a few people IRL as well as well about NJ. Suffice it to say that (if true) the Jersey legal community is a law unto itself.

[bigkahuna2020]

Not just Jersey, NYC and LI is like this also. Jersey is a pretty protected legal market though (especially in private practice, people at times will take Seton Hall's top 10% over say---someone equivalent from GW or such)

Most of this applies almost exclusively to small law firms. For example, the labor firm I referred to is an almost 100 year old firm in NYC, and probably could be considered boutique

[NCtoDC]

You seem to be a very unhappy person...2500 may not seem like a lot but an extra 200 dollars a month is a good bit of money if you ask me. Everyone has different perspectives in regards to money and how much is enough to be comfortable.

You DO understand how tax deductions work, right? Its not like the government PAYS you 2500, its just 2500 of income that you don't have to pay TAXES on. You are getting tax deductions and tax write-offs confused. You need to grow up and learn how finances work before making this major life decision.

Well, that isn't as glamorous then is it? Nonetheless you are still an unhappy person. You don't have to be a douchebag to make your point all the time.

Meh, most people on this site are trained from birth to believe that they are special, special little snowflakes who can get anything they want by positive thinking. Only assholeishness has any hope of getting a point contrary to that training across.

Yeah, as the daughter of a fruit farmer I don't fall into that category (thankfully), lol.

[Veyron]

Not just Jersey, NYC and LI is like this also. Jersey is a pretty protected legal market though (especially in private practice, people at times will take Seton Hall's top 10% over say---someone equivalent from GW or such)

Most of this applies almost exclusively to small law firms. For example, the labor firm I referred to is an almost 100 year old firm in NYC, and probably could be considered boutique

A firm that pays 1/3 market isn't a boutique. There is a difference between smallaw and botiques. There is a firm that size I know with several SCOTUS clerks at it that pays market and where partnership is virtually guaranteed for all hires. THAT is a botique.

Yeah, as the daughter of a fruit farmer I don't fall into that category (thankfully), lol.

Well then I apologize if nicer conduct would have sufficed to illuminate the pitfalls of your situation.