U Penn vs. Michigan Forum

[HeavenWood]

FYI, Joe Pa coaches for Penn State... which is not UPenn. Funny that people confuse a huge state university and an Ivy League school so often.

Nah man, there is only one state school in Pennsylvania. That's why it's referred to interchangeably as "Penn" and "Penn State." You're thinking of Brown University, which is nearby in Rhode Island.

There is the University of Pennsylvania (mascot is the Quakers) and Penn State University (mascot is Nittany Lions.) Different schools.
And the other posters point about Penn having lay prestige stands up well when Penn gets confused with Penn State.

So many whooshes, so little time.

[Veyron]

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

The idiocy of this statement need not be commented on, just preserved for posterity.

Sometimes I wonder about you.

[HeavenWood]

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

The idiocy of this statement need not be commented on, just preserved for posterity.

Sometimes I wonder about you.

He's one special kahuna.

[dissonance1848]

Depends what OP wants. If OP wants midwest, then its UM. If they want NE, then its Penn. Also, OP should see that Penn's biglaw + article III clerking is much higher than UMs (partially due to class size, 270 vs 360).

Should see the numbers for 2007-2010 NLJ250 placement thread.

[mst]

Difference is negligible. Pick which one you like more, and that shouldn't be hard considering the stark difference in lifestyle/atmosphere/living situation between Ann Arbor and Philadelphia. Or go where it's cheaper. Personally I didn't want to be in Philly or Ann Arbor because I would have jumped off a bridge in either case, but that's just my call.

[bigkahuna2020]

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

The idiocy of this statement need not be commented on, just preserved for posterity.

Sometimes I wonder about you.

The child who thinks that medians have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING other than getting into law school is---simply stupid...

I don't think either school will have an advantage, but I also know for a fact that even really well informed law firm hiring partners do now care or know ANYTHING about law school medians, unless they have a relative applying to law schools.

Knowing that to be true, your logic leads me to believe that Michigan has an advantage west of the Mississippi

[Veyron]

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

The idiocy of this statement need not be commented on, just preserved for posterity.

Sometimes I wonder about you.

The child who thinks that medians have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING other than getting into law school is---simply stupid...

I don't think either school will have an advantage, but I also know for a fact that even really well informed law firm hiring partners do now care or know ANYTHING about law school medians, unless they have a relative applying to law schools.

Knowing that to be true, your logic leads me to believe that Michigan has an advantage west of the Mississippi

I wasn't talking about undergrad medians you dimwit. Go away you know-nothing 0L.

[bigkahuna2020]

I wasn't talking about undergrad medians you dimwit. Go away you know-nothing 0L.

Wait, you are talking about salary medians? That makes even LESS sense.

[Veyron]

I wasn't talking about undergrad medians you dimwit. Go away you know-nothing 0L.

Wait, you are talking about salary medians? That makes even LESS sense.

Seriously? Sometimes I think that you are one large elaborate flame. And if so. . . bravo, one of the most believable flames in ages.

[bigkahuna2020]

I wasn't talking about undergrad medians you dimwit. Go away you know-nothing 0L.

Wait, you are talking about salary medians? That makes even LESS sense.

Seriously? Sometimes I think that you are one large elaborate flame. And if so. . . bravo, one of the most believable flames in ages.

Ah, grade medians. That actually makes some sense (but not alot IMO as many law schools disclose medians in their grade reports/medians) so carry on

[Veyron]

I wasn't talking about undergrad medians you dimwit. Go away you know-nothing 0L.

Wait, you are talking about salary medians? That makes even LESS sense.

Seriously? Sometimes I think that you are one large elaborate flame. And if so. . . bravo, one of the most believable flames in ages.

Ah, grade medians. That actually makes some sense (but not alot IMO as many law schools disclose medians in their grade reports/medians) so carry on

Yes, MANY SCHOOLS do disclose their grade medians. Penn doesn't. Michigan discloses only its mean. Is enlightenment coming to you?

[bigkahuna2020]

Doucheface, carry on tends to mean---carry on

[paulinaporizkova]

*goes to get popcorn*

[run26.2]

*goes to get popcorn*

*Is eating peanuts and lolzing*

[FlightoftheEarls]

Lol no. Michigan places more on the west coast because a larger % of the kids there want to work in more places. If you want the NE you take Penn in a heartbeat and so, magically, we place a lot of kids in the North East, leaving less for the west. Also, lots of kids here without a strong preference end up falling in the the orbit of east coast firms by default.

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

Let me reiterate:

I am extremely skeptical that less than 10% of Penn's class had any interest in going back to the west coast.

Your argument works just fine if you think that out of all the kids that attend Penn, fewer than 1 out of every 10 is interested in going back to anywhere on the west coast. Seeing as how California seems to be the second largest contributing state to Penn's class (http://www.law.upenn.edu/prospective/jd ... stics.html), I simply don't buy your argument that Penn self-selects into the easiest market but could like, you know, totally just as easily place better in the harder markets, if only people wanted to go there. The self-selection argument simply doesn't work that way, at least not credibly. Also, the bolded above basically concedes your argument - I don't believe that people actually have zero preference as to where they'd want to work (they may be open to several markets, but they have some form of preference), but Penn students end up primarily in NYC because that's where the school has placement power.

[Veyron]

Lol no. Michigan places more on the west coast because a larger % of the kids there want to work in more places. If you want the NE you take Penn in a heartbeat and so, magically, we place a lot of kids in the North East, leaving less for the west. Also, lots of kids here without a strong preference end up falling in the the orbit of east coast firms by default.

I seriously doubt either school enjoys a placement advantage west of the Mississippi except in smaller markets where firms are unaware that Penn's median is slightly higher.

Let me reiterate:

I am extremely skeptical that less than 10% of Penn's class had any interest in going back to the west coast.

Your argument works just fine if you think that out of all the kids that attend Penn, fewer than 1 out of every 10 is interested in going back to anywhere on the west coast. Seeing as how California seems to be the second largest contributing state to Penn's class (http://www.law.upenn.edu/prospective/jd ... stics.html), I simply don't buy your argument that Penn self-selects into the easiest market but could like, you know, totally just as easily place better in the harder markets, if only people wanted to go there. The self-selection argument simply doesn't work that way, at least not credibly. Also, the bolded above basically concedes your argument - I don't believe that people actually have zero preference as to where they'd want to work (they may be open to several markets, but they have some form of preference), but Penn students end up primarily in NYC because that's where the school has placement power.

You completely mischaracteried my argument. CA is certainly a difficult market to break into from any school. My point is that if you only have a slight preference for it, you are likely to risk fewer bids on it. Lots of west coasters end up bidding NYC because tons of those firms aggressively recruit here and it is much easier to get hired by one of those firms than firms elsewhere. With Michigan I get the feeling that the pool of employers is more balanced and the school is not as dominant in NYC so individuals find it easier to sustain an LA interest and are willing to take some risks to get back.

I've also never heard of an LA firm having different cut-offs for Penn and Michigan, like, ever.

[FlightoftheEarls]

You completely mischaracteried my argument. CA is certainly a difficult market to break into from any school. My point is that if you only have a slight preference for it, you are likely to risk fewer bids on it. Lots of west coasters end up bidding NYC because tons of those firms aggressively recruit here and it is much easier to get hired by one of those firms than firms elsewhere. With Michigan I get the feeling that the pool of employers is more balanced and the school is not as dominant in NYC so individuals find it easier to sustain an LA interest and are willing to take some risks to get back.

I've also never heard of an LA firm having different cut-offs for Penn and Michigan, like, ever.

Wait, so you're suggesting that Michigan isn't as good in NYC, and therefore people are forced to aim for even tougher markets in California? I can pretty much guarantee you that anyone who gets a job with a firm in CA could have pretty easily landed one in NYC, so this also seems untenable.

[Veyron]

You completely mischaracteried my argument. CA is certainly a difficult market to break into from any school. My point is that if you only have a slight preference for it, you are likely to risk fewer bids on it. Lots of west coasters end up bidding NYC because tons of those firms aggressively recruit here and it is much easier to get hired by one of those firms than firms elsewhere. With Michigan I get the feeling that the pool of employers is more balanced and the school is not as dominant in NYC so individuals find it easier to sustain an LA interest and are willing to take some risks to get back.

I've also never heard of an LA firm having different cut-offs for Penn and Michigan, like, ever.

Wait, so you're suggesting that Michigan isn't as good in NYC, and therefore people are forced to aim for even tougher markets in California? I can pretty much guarantee you that anyone who gets a job with a firm in CA could have pretty easily landed one in NYC, so this also seems untenable.

I'm saying that where there is less of an opportunity cost for aiming for CA, people will elect to do that more frequently.

[Campagnolo]

The answer seems to be: finish well at either school and you'll be fine. Is that fair to say? Even around median the prospects seem to be pretty similar. Below that...?

I'm trying to make the same decision as OP. If Penn will match my Michigan scholly, I'll be there in a heartbeat, but I think I would be foolish to turn down money in the T14.

That sound about right? Veyron? FlightoftheEarls?

[JDizzle2015]

Going through the same debate. Just woke up from a dream where I partied like crazy in Philadelphia... a subconscious decision might have been made.

This thread could have ended at the second reply:

1. Which ever gave me the most money
2. If at equal money, then the one I liked most after visiting

[03121202698008]

If both schools are stikers, which one should be chosen? Which campus is better, which city is good for living for three years, which school is better for corporate law, most importanly, which school is better from a career development point of view?

Campus is a matter of opinion...Do you like old gothic style in a college town with low cost of living or a still very nice set of buildings in an urban setting?
City is a matter of opinion...College town or big city? How important is it to you to keep down your COL?
For corporate law penn numbers tend to be higher but not by a huge margin and it is unknown what part of that is self selection.
I think both schools will give you equal career prospects.

Also I think Mich is 8400 cheaper with both at sticker. They are peer schools and I would chose completely based on personal preference at equal money. Your happiness for the 3 years you go there is going to be more important the miniscule difference between the schools.

Personally, I was surprised by the quality of Penn's facilities...in a bad way. Not sure how it is post-construction.

[Tiago Splitter]

Not that it really matters, but this thread is a year old.

[t14fanboy]

Not that it really matters, but this thread is a year old.

LMAO +1

[Campagnolo]

Not that it really matters, but this thread is a year old.

If posting new topic, response is to use the search function. Use the search function and people point out the date of the thread. Sheesh. I see some of the posters from this thread pop up from time to time and figured it was with a shot to call them out.

[Nobody]

I'm making this decision, too. Leaning towards Penn as long as they match my Michigan scholarship. It will never cease to amaze me how quickly people here point out a recycled or resurrected topics here, when it's pretty much an inherent part of the focus of the board that new people will be coming in every year with similar questions.