Vandy $ vs. WUSTL $$ Forum

[alexonfyre]

And how many is that? 20 students? Not very significant. NY is the second highest market for most of the top placing biglaw schools, as there are a lot of jobs available in NY. Second highest for BC, BU, GW, etc.

Vandy places pretty well in NYC.

Vandy: 16% NY, PA, NJ = 23 students
WUSTL: 14% NY, PA, NJ = 32 students

Both place well in NYC, Vandy is slightly better, but for that amount of money? Nah-uh

[Grizz]

And how many is that? 20 students? Not very significant. NY is the second highest market for most of the top placing biglaw schools, as there are a lot of jobs available in NY. Second highest for BC, BU, GW, etc.

Vandy places pretty well in NYC.

Vandy: 16% NY, PA, NJ = 23 students
WUSTL: 14% NY, PA, NJ = 32 students

Both place well in NYC, Vandy is slightly better, but for that amount of money? Nah-uh

With IP? Yes.

[alexonfyre]

And how many is that? 20 students? Not very significant. NY is the second highest market for most of the top placing biglaw schools, as there are a lot of jobs available in NY. Second highest for BC, BU, GW, etc.

Vandy places pretty well in NYC.

Vandy: 16% NY, PA, NJ = 23 students
WUSTL: 14% NY, PA, NJ = 32 students

Both place well in NYC, Vandy is slightly better, but for that amount of money? Nah-uh

With IP? Yes.

I know that Vandy's Engineering program is marginally better than WUSTL's, but I haven't seen anything that indicates that their IP program is significantly stronger.

[Grizz]

I know that Vandy's Engineering program is marginally better than WUSTL's, but I haven't seen anything that indicates that their IP program is significantly stronger.

It's about school rep. and prestige, not the program.

[alexonfyre]

I know that Vandy's Engineering program is marginally better than WUSTL's, but I haven't seen anything that indicates that their IP program is significantly stronger.

It's about school rep. and prestige, not the program.

Still, where is the evidence that Vandy's rep or prestige is greater than WashU? Wouldn't that be reflected in employment numbers, which are similar? They are even ranked as a tie by the "Law Firms rank Law Schools" and the rep score for Vandy is only .2 higher than WUSTL (4.1 vs 3.9)
While Vandy is the superior school, I don't think it is an extra 45k worth of debt superior.

[Grizz]

I know that Vandy's Engineering program is marginally better than WUSTL's, but I haven't seen anything that indicates that their IP program is significantly stronger.

It's about school rep. and prestige, not the program.

Still, where is the evidence that Vandy's rep or prestige is greater than WashU? Wouldn't that be reflected in employment numbers, which are similar? They are even ranked as a tie by the "Law Firms rank Law Schools" and the rep score for Vandy is only .2 higher than WUSTL (4.1 vs 3.9)
While Vandy is the superior school, I don't think it is an extra 45k worth of debt superior.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the latest NLJ250. Numbers came from people bidding and getting offers pre-OCI. Historically there has been a much more noticeable prestige difference, and with IP, it's worth an extra $45k.

[alexonfyre]

I know that Vandy's Engineering program is marginally better than WUSTL's, but I haven't seen anything that indicates that their IP program is significantly stronger.

It's about school rep. and prestige, not the program.

Still, where is the evidence that Vandy's rep or prestige is greater than WashU? Wouldn't that be reflected in employment numbers, which are similar? They are even ranked as a tie by the "Law Firms rank Law Schools" and the rep score for Vandy is only .2 higher than WUSTL (4.1 vs 3.9)
While Vandy is the superior school, I don't think it is an extra 45k worth of debt superior.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the latest NLJ250. Numbers came from people bidding and getting offers pre-OCI. Historically there has been a much more noticeable prestige difference, and with IP, it's worth an extra $45k.

I'm not disputing this point, yet, I am asking for the underlying evidence, as in my experience lawyers and people in general seem to talk about WashU and Vandy with equal esteem.

[Grizz]

I'm not disputing this point, yet, I am asking for the underlying evidence, as in my experience lawyers and people in general seem to talk about WashU and Vandy with equal esteem.

I don't know about other areas of the country as much. I can only cite to the greater statistics.

All I know is come down South, where I want to work. Though the South is pretty parochial, Vandy (along with Duke and UVA) are supreme. People really couldn't give a flying fuck about Wash U. I don't know where OP has ties, but there isn't really an equivalent situation for Wash U.

Yet even outside the South, Vandy does a pretty good job of placing people around the country, mainly in areas where people have ties.

[DMBFan]

All I know is come down South, where I want to work. Though the South is pretty parochial, Vandy (along with Duke and UVA) are supreme. People really couldn't give a flying fuck about Wash U..

Not denying WUST is a great school (and I am hoping to be accepted there!) but I did not know it was a top ranked school until I started researching law schools. That being said, what most people think is irrelevant. It's what hiring partners think, yes?

[Grizz]

All I know is come down South, where I want to work. Though the South is pretty parochial, Vandy (along with Duke and UVA) are supreme. People really couldn't give a flying fuck about Wash U..

Not denying WUST is a great school (and I am hoping to be accepted there!) but I did not know it was a top ranked school until I started researching law schools. That being said, what most people think is irrelevant. It's what hiring partners think, yes?

I agree. Should have clarified. People hear means people who make decisions. Maybe "couldn't give a flying fuck" isn't the best way to put, but in GA or FL, which I know fairly well, even if you have connections, at interviews, you will have some 'splaining to do if you went to Wash U.

[stylishlaw]

Thanks for the responses guys. I guess I'm in kind of a tough spot if I want NYC biglaw.

I heard from a buddy of mine at WUSTL that to really lock down BigLaw in this economy you need to be in the top 15-20% (not factoring location). Does that seem right? It seems a bit low given that's almost at the cutoff for what you would need to transfer into a T14. I hope those percentages improve for the class of 2014.

I will be visiting both schools in the upcoming weeks and I'm sure I would be happy at either school, but job placement is really my number one concern.


I don't know if this changes anything, but I went to Duke for undergrad. I think I would be a relatively strong candidate for BigLaw in the south, but I really would like to end up in the northeast. Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in the south and the nice weather... but my family and friends are in the northeast and I find the pace of life in the south unappealing.

[JusticeHarlan]

I heard from a buddy of mine at WUSTL that to really lock down BigLaw in this economy you need to be in the top 15-20% (not factoring location). Does that seem right? It seems a bit low given that's almost at the cutoff for what you would need to transfer into a T14. I hope those percentages improve for the class of 2014.

Well, those numbers sound pretty dead on for the most recent class, those who graduated in 2010. 18.96% of the class at WashU got a job with one of the 250 largest law firms in the country, an imperfect but useful approximation of 'big law.'

As to what numbers will be like for class of 2014, its anyone's guess, really. I think the general trend is that things are starting to recover, albeit slowly and moderately (ATL is painting in interesting picture of NYC biglaw with its coverage of the spring bonuses). Just know that you usually 'get' biglaw by working at your firm in the summer after you 2L year, and because you interview for that job (OCI) in the late summer/fall at the start of your 2L year, one of the critical factors will be how the legal economy will be looking in late summer/fall 2012. So it's only about a year and a half for things to hopefully improve by then.

[romothesavior]

I heard from a buddy of mine at WUSTL that to really lock down BigLaw in this economy you need to be in the top 15-20% (not factoring location). Does that seem right? It seems a bit low given that's almost at the cutoff for what you would need to transfer into a T14. I hope those percentages improve for the class of 2014.

Yes those sound about right. Being in the top 25% will get you some interviews. And keep in mind that while only 19% of the c/o 2010 got NLJ firms, another 5-8% did a clerkship which will likely lead to an NLJ firm down the road, so around a quarter of the class gets an NLJ or NLJ-esque firm. Pre-ITE, WUSTL was over 25% NLJ placement. Also, there are at least three non-NLJ firms that pay 100k+ in St. Louis, and I imagine Kansas City is similar. If you want a mid/big firm, the top 1/4 or top 1/3 of the class or so will probably end up alright in a good economy.

However, to get NYC biglaw from WUSTL, you'll probably need top 10%, maaaaybe top 15% will get you a few interviews. We do place a good percentage of our class into NYC, but it is competitive for the top firms. Landing NYC is definitely possible, and I don't think we get enough credit for our NYC placement. However, if you're uncomfortable working in the Midwest, I'd be wary of going to WUSTL.

I agree with radlaw that Vandy's employment statistics are better than ours, and it is probably worth the extra 45k. However, 150k of debt from a non-elite school is just a lot of money. My personal cutoff point for maximum debt for a non-T14 was 100k, which is close to what I'll be at when I graduate from WUSTL (I actually took a 75k scholly to come here). Vandy is worth a little more debt for, but man... 150k is just a lot.

[whymeohgodno]

And how many is that? 20 students? Not very significant. NY is the second highest market for most of the top placing biglaw schools, as there are a lot of jobs available in NY. Second highest for BC, BU, GW, etc.

It's pretty damn good for a school where most people don't actually want NYC. It's fairly common knowledge around here that NYC has been a pretty strong market for us.

This is dumb. NYC is the largest legal market in the US. It's obvious that a school would place the most into NYC other than it's primary market HERP DERP

[whymeohgodno]

I heard from a buddy of mine at WUSTL that to really lock down BigLaw in this economy you need to be in the top 15-20% (not factoring location). Does that seem right? It seems a bit low given that's almost at the cutoff for what you would need to transfer into a T14. I hope those percentages improve for the class of 2014.

Yes those sound about right. Being in the top 25% will get you some interviews. And keep in mind that while only 19% of the c/o 2010 got NLJ firms, another 5-8% did a clerkship which will likely lead to an NLJ firm down the road, so around a quarter of the class gets an NLJ or NLJ-esque firm. Pre-ITE, WUSTL was over 25% NLJ placement. Also, there are at least three non-NLJ firms that pay 100k+ in St. Louis, and I imagine Kansas City is similar. If you want a mid/big firm, the top 1/4 or top 1/3 of the class or so will probably end up alright in a good economy.

However, to get NYC biglaw from WUSTL, you'll probably need top 10%, maaaaybe top 15% will get you a few interviews. We do place a good percentage of our class into NYC, but it is competitive for the top firms. Landing NYC is definitely possible, and I don't think we get enough credit for our NYC placement. However, if you're uncomfortable working in the Midwest, I'd be wary of going to WUSTL.

I agree with radlaw that Vandy's employment statistics are better than ours, and it is probably worth the extra 45k. However, 150k of debt from a non-elite school is just a lot of money. My personal cutoff point for maximum debt for a non-T14 was 100k, which is close to what I'll be at when I graduate from WUSTL (I actually took a 75k scholly to come here). Vandy is worth a little more debt for, but man... 150k is just a lot.

Didn't you get into a T14?

[romothesavior]

Didn't you get into a T14?

Two of them, yes. Why?

[whymeohgodno]

Didn't you get into a T14?

Two of them, yes. Why?

You said that you had a cutoff line for paying sticker. Just wondering which T14 schools didn't make the cut.

[romothesavior]

Didn't you get into a T14?

Two of them, yes. Why?

You said that you had a cutoff line for paying sticker. Just wondering which T14 schools didn't make the cut.

Wasn't worth it to me to pay 200k+ for C or G when I had no desire to be in NYC or DC. I'm aiming for a mid-sized market in the Midwest, primarily STL.

[joeljohnson]

OP, what are your numbers?

[Grizz]

And how many is that? 20 students? Not very significant. NY is the second highest market for most of the top placing biglaw schools, as there are a lot of jobs available in NY. Second highest for BC, BU, GW, etc.

It's pretty damn good for a school where most people don't actually want NYC. It's fairly common knowledge around here that NYC has been a pretty strong market for us.

This is dumb. NYC is the largest legal market in the US. It's obvious that a school would place the most into NYC other than it's primary market HERP DERP

Not necessarily. You are an idiot.

[stylishlaw]

OP, what are your numbers?

Numbers are 3.4/169. Difficult undergrad major + decided I wanted to go to law school really late. Performed like 7 points lower than my PT averages, late LSAT, late cycle. Frankly, I consider it a miracle I even got into Vanderbilt. I'm still waiting to hear back from schools in the T14, but would be surprised if I got into any of them.

[TheFactor]

OP, what are your numbers?

Numbers are 3.4/169. Difficult undergrad major + decided I wanted to go to law school really late. Performed like 7 points lower than my PT averages, late LSAT, late cycle. Frankly, I consider it a miracle I even got into Vanderbilt. I'm still waiting to hear back from schools in the T14, but would be surprised if I got into any of them.

retake not an option?

[stylishlaw]

OP, what are your numbers?

Numbers are 3.4/169. Difficult undergrad major + decided I wanted to go to law school really late. Performed like 7 points lower than my PT averages, late LSAT, late cycle. Frankly, I consider it a miracle I even got into Vanderbilt. I'm still waiting to hear back from schools in the T14, but would be surprised if I got into any of them.

retake not an option?

Would it even be worth it? I feel that my GPA really limits me from the schools higher on the food chain. And everything I have read has suggested that splitter cycles are difficult to predict. How high would I need to score to safely get into schools in the CCN tier?

A June retake isn't out of the question though. A successful retake would help with any waitlists, but isn't that a bit too late to bargain with schools for money?

[TheFactor]

OP, what are your numbers?

Numbers are 3.4/169. Difficult undergrad major + decided I wanted to go to law school really late. Performed like 7 points lower than my PT averages, late LSAT, late cycle. Frankly, I consider it a miracle I even got into Vanderbilt. I'm still waiting to hear back from schools in the T14, but would be surprised if I got into any of them.

retake not an option?

Would it even be worth it? I feel that my GPA really limits me from the schools higher on the food chain. And everything I have read has suggested that splitter cycles are difficult to predict. How high would I need to score to safely get into schools in the CCN tier?

A June retake isn't out of the question though. A successful retake would help with any waitlists, but isn't that a bit too late to bargain with schools for money?

I doubt that a retake would help too much this cycle, but if you can hit 175+ I'd say you'd be a lock with $$ everywhere minus YHSCCN next year. You'd even have a pretty good shot at Chicago if you ED. Like you said, splitters are difficult to predict, but I would feel pretty confident with a 3.4/175 if I applied early next cycle.

[whymeohgodno]

And how many is that? 20 students? Not very significant. NY is the second highest market for most of the top placing biglaw schools, as there are a lot of jobs available in NY. Second highest for BC, BU, GW, etc.

It's pretty damn good for a school where most people don't actually want NYC. It's fairly common knowledge around here that NYC has been a pretty strong market for us.

This is dumb. NYC is the largest legal market in the US. It's obvious that a school would place the most into NYC other than it's primary market HERP DERP

Not necessarily. You are an idiot.

How does the statement: "My school X places primarily in Y but it's best secondary market is NYC" turn into "My school X is good for NYC"

You are an idiot.