Michigan ($$) vs. Davis ($$, instate), vs. Hastings (sticker Forum

[Bumi]

Since we can't quantify how much self-selection does exist, all we can work with is the empirical data we've been given. That is, unless you have the empirical self-selection data, in which case I'd love to see it?

We can't simply ASSUME (which is what you're all doing) that so few folks from U Mich decide to go to CA. You know what assumptions do.

You absolutely can assume that the percentage of Davis grads trying to get jobs in California is much higher than the percentage of Michigan grads trying to get jobs in California. This isn't science, it's a business decision. And if you refuse to include factors you can't quantify in business decisions, you will make bad ones.

That is neither here nor there.

Again you bring assumption into the mix.

Where's the proof folks?

Hey. I'm talking to you. Sometimes you have to make assumptions in business decisions. That is a statement that is both here and also there. Are you really asking for proof that more Davis grads try for California than Michigan grads?

[Aggiegrad2011]

Aggie,
Do you really believe what you are saying- a Michigan grad would hold no advantage over a Davis grad in CA?

I believe that it's an angle worth pursuing for OP and that sheer rank-whoring a'la TLS style isn't necessarily the best choice for everyone.

[bk1]

Gee, golly, there aren't 48 other states b/n Mich and Cal? Wowsers.

No shit Sherlock.

Can you really defend your argumentation when it results in the conclusion that a CA resident should attend a TTT California school rather than Harvard to land a job in CA?

[Aggiegrad2011]

Hey. I'm talking to you. Sometimes you have to make assumptions in business decisions. That is a statement that is both here and also there. Are you really asking for proof that more Davis grads try for California than Michigan grads?

Hi there. Nice to talk to you too.

I am asking for proof that demonstrates Mich. grads have exactly the same (EXACTLY IDENTICAL) opportunities, if not better, to obtain gainful employment in California and simply elect not to b/c they don't like Jerry Brown or some such nonsense.

Sadly, none of the TLS rank-whores can deliver such proof, so we're left with wild assumptions or credited BAR data.

[Aggiegrad2011]

Gee, golly, there aren't 48 other states b/n Mich and Cal? Wowsers.

No shit Sherlock.

Can you really defend your argumentation when it results in the conclusion that a CA resident should attend a TTT California school rather than Harvard to land a job in CA?

Don't strawman this.

Address this problem:

Can you show me that UMich grads have exactly, PRECISELY IDENTICAL IF NOT BETTER, chances of obtaining employment in CA but choose not to? No, you cannot, and are therefore making assumptions, which you should've learned not to do long ago.

I brought empirical evidence to this discussion and all I've seen from you folks is blind TLS rhetoric.

[Curry]

Hey. I'm talking to you. Sometimes you have to make assumptions in business decisions. That is a statement that is both here and also there. Are you really asking for proof that more Davis grads try for California than Michigan grads?

Hi there. Nice to talk to you too.

I am asking for proof that demonstrates Mich. grads have exactly the same (EXACTLY IDENTICAL) opportunities, if not better, to obtain gainful employment in California and simply elect not to b/c they don't like Jerry Brown or some such nonsense.

Sadly, none of the TLS rank-whores can deliver such proof, so we're left with wild assumptions or credited BAR data.

Do this. Go to any big law firm in California. Go to their associate page. Count the number of associates who attended Mich. Count the number that attended Davis. Now look at Davis' OCI numbers (for c/2010). Then look at Mich OCI numbers. Compare and contrast. Come back and tell us what you find.

Don't strawman this.

Address this problem:

Can you show me that UMich grads have exactly, PRECISELY IDENTICAL IF NOT BETTER, chances of obtaining employment in CA but choose not to? No, you cannot, and are therefore making assumptions, which you should've learned not to do long ago.

I brought empirical evidence to this discussion and all I've seen from you folks is blind TLS rhetoric.

YOU DID NOT BRING IN VALID EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO THIS DISCUSSION.

[Lieut Kaffee]

Gee, golly, there aren't 48 other states b/n Mich and Cal? Wowsers.

No shit Sherlock.

Can you really defend your argumentation when it results in the conclusion that a CA resident should attend a TTT California school rather than Harvard to land a job in CA?

Don't strawman this.

Address this problem:

Can you show me that UMich grads have exactly, PRECISELY IDENTICAL IF NOT BETTER, chances of obtaining employment in CA but choose not to? No, you cannot, and are therefore making assumptions, which you should've learned not to do long ago.

I brought empirical evidence to this discussion and all I've seen from you folks is blind TLS rhetoric.

What you call a "strawman" argument establishes that your "empirical evidence" has no meaning.

[Aggiegrad2011]

Gee, golly, there aren't 48 other states b/n Mich and Cal? Wowsers.

No shit Sherlock.

Can you really defend your argumentation when it results in the conclusion that a CA resident should attend a TTT California school rather than Harvard to land a job in CA?

Don't strawman this.

Address this problem:

Can you show me that UMich grads have exactly, PRECISELY IDENTICAL IF NOT BETTER, chances of obtaining employment in CA but choose not to? No, you cannot, and are therefore making assumptions, which you should've learned not to do long ago.

I brought empirical evidence to this discussion and all I've seen from you folks is blind TLS rhetoric.

What you call a "strawman" argument establishes that your "empirical evidence" has no meaning.

It certainly has meaning. It proves that, with sheer data collected from the California BAR itself, that more grads from UC Davis secure jobs in every large market in California than do U Mich grads and besides a lot of flag-waving and TLS rhetoric, no one's really proven otherwise...

[bk1]

Don't strawman this.

Address this problem:

Can you show me that UMich grads have exactly, PRECISELY IDENTICAL IF NOT BETTER, chances of obtaining employment in CA but choose not to? No, you cannot, and are therefore making assumptions, which you should've learned not to do long ago.

I brought empirical evidence to this discussion and all I've seen from you folks is blind TLS rhetoric.

I don't think that's actually a strawman.

You say "here is this data, it says Davis is better at gaining CA employment than UMich." I say "the data also says Golden Gate is better at gaining CA employment than Harvard." Because of that it seems foolish to use this data in such a way because it leads to what we are sure are erroneous conclusions.

You act like this decision can be made empirically on the basis of existing data. The fact is it really cannot and the best thing you are going to get is subjective accounts from law students who have gone through OCI and aimed at the CA market and hiring partners who say whether they would prefer a Michigan student or a Davis student at equal class rank. These things, the best data we could possibly get, don't seem like they'd be sufficient for you.

[JakeL]

This is somewhat ironic. I went to Sidley Austin's SF list of associates. First guy-Michigan grad...

[Flustercluck]

I think Aggie has T14 envy....

[bk1]

It certainly has meaning. It proves that, with sheer data collected from the California BAR itself, that more grads from McGeorge secure jobs in every large market in Northern California than do Harvard grads

See, the data says this as well. Am I just TLS-blind and think that Harvard is the shit when it really isn't and that I should really go to McGeorge if I want to work in Sacramento or SF?

[4102011]

It certainly has meaning. It proves that, with sheer data collected from the California BAR itself, that more grads from McGeorge secure jobs in every large market in Northern California than do Harvard grads

See, the data says this as well. Am I just TLS-blind and think that Harvard is the shit when it really isn't and that I should really go to McGeorge if I want to work in Sacramento or SF?

That's not what he's saying! He's saying only do that if you want to work in California. Obviously.

[Curry]

It certainly has meaning. It proves that, with sheer data collected from the California BAR itself, that more grads from UC Davis secure jobs in every large market in California than do U Mich grads and besides a lot of flag-waving and TLS rhetoric, no one's really proven otherwise...

And it completely ignores the possibility that more UC Davis grads want jobs in California than Michigan grads. It also ignores the possibility that the percentage of UC Davis grads who want jobs in California and get them may be smaller than the number of Michigan grabs who want jobs in California and get them. It also leads to the horrendous conclusion the UC Davis is better for california than Yale/Harvard. Do you really not understand why your data is horrible?

*prepared to be ignored*

[Aggiegrad2011]

I don't think that's actually a strawman.

You say "here is this data, it says Davis is better at gaining CA employment than UMich." I say "the data also says Golden Gate is better at gaining CA employment than Harvard." Because of that it seems foolish to use this data in such a way because it leads to what we are sure are erroneous conclusions.

You act like this decision can be made empirically on the basis of existing data. The fact is it really cannot and the best thing you are going to get is subjective accounts from law students who have gone through OCI and aimed at the CA market and hiring partners who say whether they would prefer a Michigan student or a Davis student at equal class rank. These things, the best data we could possibly get, don't seem like they'd be sufficient for you.

I am suggesting that a discussion is warranted about the possible likelihood of OP not being able to easily return to CA, where OP wants to practice.

Sadly, the usual suspects here want to tell OP to leave his long-term relationship behind and likely not be able to return to CA for employment (based on California bar data) whereas, graduating from UCD, OP would very much be able to find employment in California and not have to be separated (OR make long-term relationshipee uproot and go to Ann Arbor).

Mostly b/c you folks make it about business, solely, when this is as much of an emotional decision as any. If (and I say IF) OP would be straight up miserable in Ann Arbor and would be even MORE miserable after graduation and not being able to return to CA, that'd be a damn shame.

[Curry]

I don't think that's actually a strawman.

You say "here is this data, it says Davis is better at gaining CA employment than UMich." I say "the data also says Golden Gate is better at gaining CA employment than Harvard." Because of that it seems foolish to use this data in such a way because it leads to what we are sure are erroneous conclusions.

You act like this decision can be made empirically on the basis of existing data. The fact is it really cannot and the best thing you are going to get is subjective accounts from law students who have gone through OCI and aimed at the CA market and hiring partners who say whether they would prefer a Michigan student or a Davis student at equal class rank. These things, the best data we could possibly get, don't seem like they'd be sufficient for you.

I am suggesting that a discussion is warranted about the possible likelihood of OP not being able to easily return to CA, where OP wants to practice.

Sadly, the usual suspects here want to tell OP to leave his long-term relationship behind and likely not be able to return to CA for employment (based on California bar data) whereas, graduating from UCD, OP would very much be able to find employment in California and not have to be separated (OR make long-term relationshipee uproot and go to Ann Arbor).

Mostly b/c you folks make it about business, solely, when this is as much of an emotional decision as any. If (and I say IF) OP would be straight up miserable in Ann Arbor and would be even MORE miserable after graduation and not being able to return to CA, that'd be a damn shame.

Your argument is moot. Sorry.

[JakeL]

OK For SF
Sidley Austin Associates
2-Michigan
3-Hastings
0-Davis

Now on to the remaining 49 of the 50 biggest firms in CA...

[Aggiegrad2011]

Your argument is moot. Sorry.

Oh, look, more TLS rhetoric with the strike-through.

Boy, you've been reading Rad Law's playbook and drinking his Kool-Aid for a long time haven't you?

And now you're all *assuming* OP wants to do Big Law.

yeah OK, you all win, go to Mich OP.

Sorry for ever thinking that rank isn't > *.

[TyrodTaylor]

emotional decisions are what get 152's on LSATS

[Curry]

Your argument is moot. Sorry.

Oh, look, more TLS rhetoric with the strike-through.

Boy, you've been reading Rad Law's playbook and drinking his Kool-Aid for a long time haven't you?

Your argument is moot. Sorry.

[bk1]

I am suggesting that a discussion is warranted about the possible likelihood of OP not being able to easily return to CA, where OP wants to practice.

Sadly, the usual suspects here want to tell OP to leave his long-term relationship behind and likely not be able to return to CA for employment (based on California bar data) whereas, graduating from UCD, OP would very much be able to find employment in California and not have to be separated (OR make long-term relationshipee uproot and go to Ann Arbor).

Mostly b/c you folks make it about business, solely, when this is as much of an emotional decision as any. If (and I say IF) OP would be straight up miserable in Ann Arbor and would be even MORE miserable after graduation and not being able to return to CA, that'd be a damn shame.

Half of your argument is not what I was arguing against. The intangible parts are very important to the discussion but they are not ones that any of us other than OP can quantify (how serious is the relationship? would it survive being a LDR? is worse job prospects worth not doing a LDR? etc).

If OP really wants CA I don't think he's going to have trouble finding at least CA shitlaw from Michigan. The point is the Michigan will likely raise the ceiling more than Davis would.

[Curry]

Moreover:

And it completely ignores the possibility that more UC Davis grads want jobs in California than Michigan grads. It also ignores the possibility that the percentage of UC Davis grads who want jobs in California and get them may be smaller than the number of Michigan grabs who want jobs in California and get them. It also leads to the horrendous conclusion the UC Davis is better for california than Yale/Harvard. Do you really not understand why your data is horrible?

*prepared to be ignored*

[akili]

To the OP:

It really depends on how much the long-term relationship means to you and whether you think it could survive long-distance through a very stressful first year.

If I had Michigan with $$ on the table, I would take it in a heartbeat.

Edit; read your profile. Whoops!

[Lieut Kaffee]

I don't know what happened to OP, but OP's SO should move to Michigan.

[bk1]

I don't know what happened to OP, but OP's SO should move to Michigan.