CCNB - Public Interest & Quality of Life Forum

[chris0805]

NYU 1L. Will try not to troll too hard.

NYU has the PI rep for a good reason. It's difficult to imagine comparable schools having the level of institutional support for those pursuing (some might even call it institutional pressure to pursue) PI. The school has a separate career office for public interest, which is unique as I understand it. We host the largest PI job fair in the country every year and NYU students have to be given a certain percentage of interviews. There are almost nonstop talks from really prominent people working in just about every area of PI law. I could go on. None of this should be a deal-breaker for CLS, because anything PI-related you can do at NYU you probably can do there too, but my sense is it may be easier to get on the right track at NYU, and the environment is more encouraging. I think that is undeniably reflected in the statistics – 6% of 2008 CLS grads went into PI/government; 24% of 2009 NYU grads did. Whether this is self-selection or a product of the school's emphasis (or as some will say, NYU's inability to place people in biglaw), it is a huge difference.

That said, NYU's LRAP is no longer best-in-class, no matter what they may claim (though it's still quite good). It's comparable to CLS's now, and can be worse in some scenarios depending on a things like your salary, whether you leave the program before ten years, your assets, whether you're married, etc. It's also unnecessarily complicated. I believe they are revamping the LRAP program before the end of this academic year though, so this may be moot soon.

When I was looking at Chicago last year, they seemed basically to pay lip service to PI careers. The LRAP was a joke -- they would give you $10,000 a year in seven out of your first ten years or something like that, good luck living on a $40,000 salary. Maybe this has changed. Berkeley struck me almost as NYU West in a lot of ways, with a similar institutional focus on PI jobs, but I don't know that much about it. (I'm also okay with being Cal East.)

I want to address a few things in this post:

1.In those pages NYU includes clerkships as "public interest/government" (where they generally send anywhere from 8-16 %) and CLS counts it separately. Generally, CLS sends around 4-9 % in public interest, and NYU generally sends around 8 - 12 % (not counting clerkships). Looking at the pages you linked to, 75 % of NYU grads went into law firms or business and 83 % of CLS grads went to law firms. The differences are there, but they're not nearly as big as people make them out to be.

2. I think most top ten schools have a public interest career office (I only know for certain about CLS though).

3. The NYU career fair is, IMO, the only meaningful difference between NYU and other schools in terms of PI support. It gives significant home court advantages to NYU students too, though I sometimes wonder how much it really helps NYU students in the end. Still, I have to give credit where credit is due. It's a great career fair (it's also where I got my 2L summer and my current job).

Look, NYU is a great place to go for public interest, but I think it's PI reputation can be overstated in comparison to other schools. I don't think going to NYU or CLS gives you a better chance to land a top-notch career in PI across the board.

I do concur that U Chicago's LRAP is a joke (or was; I'm not sure if they've updated it recently).

[4102011]

UChi just added guaranteed summer funding for PI internships (5k/1L, forget the 2L amount). And they say that they are currently reworking their LRAP, so we'll see what it looks like soon.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I want to address a few things in this post:

1.In those pages NYU includes clerkships as "public interest/government" (where they generally send anywhere from 8-16 %) and CLS counts it separately. Generally, CLS sends around 4-9 % in public interest, and NYU generally sends around 8 - 12 % (not counting clerkships). Looking at the pages you linked to, 75 % of NYU grads went into law firms or business and 83 % of CLS grads went to law firms. The differences are there, but they're not nearly as big as people make them out to be.

Thanks for catching that about the NYU clerkship thing. It's strange that they calculate it that way and you're right, it makes a big difference.

Anyway, I am happy to hear that your experience with PI at Columbia has been positive. The few times I've posted on here about NYU/CLS I've come off sounding more partisan than I intend, maybe because I had a visceral (and probably mostly meaningless) pro-NYU and anti-CLS reaction during my interactions with each, for whatever reason. I don't know what it's like to be a student there and shouldn't contribute to the same innuendo that informs a lot of my opinion about it.

[chris0805]

UChi just added guaranteed summer funding for PI internships (5k/1L, forget the 2L amount). And they say that they are currently reworking their LRAP, so we'll see what it looks like soon.

That's very good news for UChi students. If you're interested in UChi as 0L, I would be closely watching to see if they come out with something new very soon. There's no reason they shouldn't have a top-notch LRAP, and I'm sure they'll have one eventually.

[Non-Chalant1]

UChi just added guaranteed summer funding for PI internships (5k/1L, forget the 2L amount). And they say that they are currently reworking their LRAP, so we'll see what it looks like soon.

But it does also seem like NYU and Columbia students do more pro-bono work and get more practical experience, and have more established externship opportunities...all things that I think are valuable in building skills and connections. I'd say that's where I started to shift to NYU/CLS vs. Chicago. They seem like the better option if you're looking for a government job, unless you plan on clerking first...then maybe there's the advantage. I'm definitely doing the entire Chicago, NYU and CLS debate everyday in my head with my PI interests in mind.

[4102011]

Yeah, I'd say that CLS/NYU are definitely ahead right now. Though UChi (especially the new dean) does seem to be making progress towards getting better. Like the summer funding and the new pro bono challenge, as well as creating a new LRAP.

I'm just in a weird spot because I don't think it's worth it for me to pay sticker at NYU for PI, whereas I have a 90k scholly at UChi. So like...wtf world, why are you making this complicated ;_;

[spondee]

Nice scholarship! Congrats. I'd bet you'll get money from NYU and CLS, too, if Chicago's offering you that much.

Hopefully, you'll be able to bargain/leverage and get to go to whichever school you like most.

[4102011]

Ahaha yeah I have no idea what will happen. CLS held me, so I'm not expecting much on that front.

But yeah, we'll see what UChi comes out with for their new LRAP. The current one is hilarious, so let's hope they do something...better this time.

[clone22]

Right now Berkeley's LRAP is the most generous in the nation. Basically if you make less than 65K a year and working for gov't/nonprofit/PI, they pay your IBR payments for the first 10 years, and then your debt gets forgiven tax free (the 10 year forgiveness is a feature of federal education loans). If you make between 65K and 100K a year, they expect you to contribute 30% of the marginal wage above 65K to pay for your loans, and pay off the rest.

If you want quality of life, Berk has the highest quality of life out of the T14 (there's a link to ATL article about it) and it's a general hippy school (so it's all about "helping the little man, man") so PI is very popular there.

/blatant berk trolling

[Non-Chalant1]

Honestly, I haven't fully researched how the LRAPs at the different schools work. I just have heard that Chi's isn't that great. I was looking more at resources, alumni, student bodies, internships and externships. NYU/CLS seem to win that.

To my understanding if you take a qualifying PI offer, CLS has no ceiling right? How does NYU compare? I'm really bad with this figuring out debt stuff...I figured I'd try to get into the schools and figure it out later.

[worldtraveler]

I am in public interest at Berkeley and I couldn't be happier. However, public interest is a really broad category and different schools are going to be a better fit for you depending on what you want to do. I think for environmental stuff, Berkeley is without a doubt #1. When it comes to other areas, it's more of a toss up.

[dot]

UChi was the only school in the T6 that I pretty much immediately crossed off my list when I was considering applications.

Columbia was at first a question mark given its weaker environmental/PI reputation (compared to NYU and Berk), but actually some of the materials I've received since acceptance have sold me a lil more.

At this point, a lot hangs on ASW visits and merit $/finaid packages.

[IndyHCKM]

That said, NYU's LRAP is no longer best-in-class, no matter what they may claim (though it's still quite good). It's comparable to CLS's now, and can be worse in some scenarios depending on a things like your salary, whether you leave the program before ten years, your assets, whether you're married, etc. It's also unnecessarily complicated. I believe they are revamping the LRAP program before the end of this academic year though, so this may be moot soon.

When I was looking at Chicago last year, they seemed basically to pay lip service to PI careers. The LRAP was a joke -- they would give you $10,000 a year in seven out of your first ten years or something like that, good luck living on a $40,000 salary. Maybe this has changed. Berkeley struck me almost as NYU West in a lot of ways, with a similar institutional focus on PI jobs, but I don't know that much about it. (I'm also okay with being Cal East.)

I just got back from the NYU admitted students weekend, where I attended a session on their LRAP. Apparently their new LRAP covers you 100% if you make less than 75k a year. They were not very clear as to when the LRAP loans would be forgiven, etc. but I think raising the coverage to 75k makes the program much more competitive (CLS as I understand it, only covers 100% up to 50k and then you pay some percentage of the loans thereafter).

[frijoles99]

Hey I am really enjoying this discussion. I am very happy to hear about so many people taking PI seriously. I want to go into PI, but do worry about paying for it. Can someone explain how the new Federal Loan Reimbursement Program plays into LRAP's? I know that after ten years the loans are forgiven, but what is the payment during those ten years? Is it dependent on the federal rules or on the individual schools?

Thanks

[Eugenie Danglars]

Every school is really, really different, so we can't help you much without a school or two you're considering. You should also definitely go on each school's page and carefully read what's written.

I'm actually planning to call a couple fin aid offices this week for clarifications on their policies. Will report back.

[AppsAbound]

UChi was the only school in the T6 that I pretty much immediately crossed off my list when I was considering applications.

Columbia was at first a question mark given its weaker environmental/PI reputation (compared to NYU and Berk), but actually some of the materials I've received since acceptance have sold me a lil more.

At this point, a lot hangs on ASW visits and merit $/finaid packages.

The materials they send may not reflect the reality. There are definitely PI opportunities at CLS, but it's not as prevalent as the materials make it seem. Most of what gets pushed at students are the firm jobs, private career services tends to be more helpful than public sector career services, and most students I know who were interested in PI have abandoned ship and are now aboard the "Corp. Firm SS 160K" But that's true prob at almost every top school, where the (often vast) majority of students become corporate lawyers.

[dot]

UChi was the only school in the T6 that I pretty much immediately crossed off my list when I was considering applications.

Columbia was at first a question mark given its weaker environmental/PI reputation (compared to NYU and Berk), but actually some of the materials I've received since acceptance have sold me a lil more.

At this point, a lot hangs on ASW visits and merit $/finaid packages.

The materials they send may not reflect the reality. There are definitely PI opportunities at CLS, but it's not as prevalent as the materials make it seem. Most of what gets pushed at students are the firm jobs, private career services tends to be more helpful than public sector career services, and most students I know who were interested in PI have abandoned ship and are now aboard the "Corp. Firm SS 160K" But that's true prob at almost every top school, where the (often vast) majority of students become corporate lawyers.

Ya, I recognize this. I was mainly commenting on the marketing value of those materials (being abroad, I was not so impressed that they spent like $100 to ship me the brick and all that, but there were a couple nice reads). Nicely done. And as you say, the vast majority at most top schools do try for biglaw... so it's not so much about the size, but rather how good the small, focused PI support is for those who really want it. I never thought too highly of Columbia in this regard, so it wasn't hard to increase my opinion with a few viewbooks.

[LinzerTorte]

UChi was the only school in the T6 that I pretty much immediately crossed off my list when I was considering applications.

Columbia was at first a question mark given its weaker environmental/PI reputation (compared to NYU and Berk), but actually some of the materials I've received since acceptance have sold me a lil more.

At this point, a lot hangs on ASW visits and merit $/finaid packages.

The materials they send may not reflect the reality. There are definitely PI opportunities at CLS, but it's not as prevalent as the materials make it seem. Most of what gets pushed at students are the firm jobs, private career services tends to be more helpful than public sector career services, and most students I know who were interested in PI have abandoned ship and are now aboard the "Corp. Firm SS 160K" But that's true prob at almost every top school, where the (often vast) majority of students become corporate lawyers.

Ya, I recognize this. I was mainly commenting on the marketing value of those materials (being abroad, I was not so impressed that they spent like $100 to ship me the brick and all that, but there were a couple nice reads). Nicely done. And as you say, the vast majority at most top schools do try for biglaw... so it's not so much about the size, but rather how good the small, focused PI support is for those who really want it. I never thought too highly of Columbia in this regard, so it wasn't hard to increase my opinion with a few viewbooks.

I should really look through that brick, maybe it will push me a little more in that direction.

[legalmindedfella]

That said, NYU's LRAP is no longer best-in-class, no matter what they may claim (though it's still quite good). It's comparable to CLS's now, and can be worse in some scenarios depending on a things like your salary, whether you leave the program before ten years, your assets, whether you're married, etc. It's also unnecessarily complicated. I believe they are revamping the LRAP program before the end of this academic year though, so this may be moot soon.

When I was looking at Chicago last year, they seemed basically to pay lip service to PI careers. The LRAP was a joke -- they would give you $10,000 a year in seven out of your first ten years or something like that, good luck living on a $40,000 salary. Maybe this has changed. Berkeley struck me almost as NYU West in a lot of ways, with a similar institutional focus on PI jobs, but I don't know that much about it. (I'm also okay with being Cal East.)

I just got back from the NYU admitted students weekend, where I attended a session on their LRAP. Apparently their new LRAP covers you 100% if you make less than 75k a year. They were not very clear as to when the LRAP loans would be forgiven, etc. but I think raising the coverage to 75k makes the program much more competitive (CLS as I understand it, only covers 100% up to 50k and then you pay some percentage of the loans thereafter).

I was there at session (retroactive hi!), and that increase impressed the hell out of me. The specifics in comparison to HYS & Columbia are one thing, but NYU definitely seems miles ahead of Chicago for funding of PI. 75k/year of untouched income is a pretty sweet setup.

Seconded on the lack of clarity, but that could be because they haven't finalized all of the aspects of the LRAP improvement...

[IndyHCKM]

Seconded on the lack of clarity, but that could be because they haven't finalized all of the aspects of the LRAP improvement...

Which seems pretty crazy... how much later can they push the finalization of the details? They have just a few more weeks before seat deposits are due. Chicago is having a similar problem, saying they are working on their LRAP, but don't seem to have specifics finalized yet (although maybe this has changed since I last spoke with them a week ago).

[Ialdabaoth]

Tagging as well.

[thunderflesh]

That said, NYU's LRAP is no longer best-in-class, no matter what they may claim (though it's still quite good). It's comparable to CLS's now, and can be worse in some scenarios depending on a things like your salary, whether you leave the program before ten years, your assets, whether you're married, etc. It's also unnecessarily complicated. I believe they are revamping the LRAP program before the end of this academic year though, so this may be moot soon.

When I was looking at Chicago last year, they seemed basically to pay lip service to PI careers. The LRAP was a joke -- they would give you $10,000 a year in seven out of your first ten years or something like that, good luck living on a $40,000 salary. Maybe this has changed. Berkeley struck me almost as NYU West in a lot of ways, with a similar institutional focus on PI jobs, but I don't know that much about it. (I'm also okay with being Cal East.)

I just got back from the NYU admitted students weekend, where I attended a session on their LRAP. Apparently their new LRAP covers you 100% if you make less than 75k a year. They were not very clear as to when the LRAP loans would be forgiven, etc. but I think raising the coverage to 75k makes the program much more competitive (CLS as I understand it, only covers 100% up to 50k and then you pay some percentage of the loans thereafter).

100% for less than 75K????!!!!!! Is that definitely going into effect for people starting in the Fall of 2011?

If so, then NYU PI > CLS PI suddenly becomes fact...

[legalmindedfella]

I made that precise face when they announced that, yeah. I can't see how this is a contest.

[IndyHCKM]

100% for less than 75K????!!!!!! Is that definitely going into effect for people starting in the Fall of 2011?

If so, then NYU PI > CLS PI suddenly becomes fact...

That's what they say. It sounds like when your annual income exceeds 75k a year you pay 40% of that income over 75k towards the loans.

[worldtraveler]

100% for less than 75K????!!!!!! Is that definitely going into effect for people starting in the Fall of 2011?

If so, then NYU PI > CLS PI suddenly becomes fact...

That's what they say. It sounds like when your annual income exceeds 75k a year you pay 40% of that income over 75k towards the loans.

Don't just look at numbers. Look at what types of employment are covered. Some LRAPs cover clerkships. Some don't. Some also cover UN work or work with non-profits in other countries, while others don't.