Is it silly to want to work in California? Forum

[Fresh]

In the SF Bay Area, if you want to buy ah house somewhere you won't get shot (see: Oakland, Richmond), you are going to pony up in excess of $1 mil. Doing all the math, if you put down 20% to avoid PMI (which, of course requires having $200k liquid), your mortgage payment is going to be near $6k/month when you include property taxes and the like. And, your $160k/year, after federal and state taxes, is going to be closer to $106k, or $8900 a month, and that is assuming you pay nothing at all for medical/dental/401k, etc... On top of that, if you have any debt (CC, student loans, whatever), that $8900 a month keeps going down drastically. Even if you have no debt, you'd not be able to afford a nice home in a nice neighborhood, as your income to payment ratio would be way too high. And, don't forget the state and/or county sales tax on pretty much everything you buy, as well. I know for Los Altos, the current county tax rate is 9.25%, which is a joke.

In summary, if you have no problem making $160k (if you can even get a job that pays that much) a year, living like you are a freshman in college, and don't have nor want a family in the distant future, sure, CA might work out. Or, if you want to live in Fresno, Bakersfield, Modesto, Stockton, you'll probably be fine. However, if you want to live in a "major" city, you can pull it off, but that $160k in CA won't get you nearly as far as a lower salary in a lot of other markets.

I don't know anything about Cali's CoL, but is there really nothing in between a million dollar home and living like a freshman, especially post-recession?

[queenlizzie13]

^ Northern California has some nice areas but also some really crummy areas. You do not want to live in places like Oakland, etc. If you want more middle ground So Cal is the place to be. You can now find some pretty nice houses in new tracts in South Orange County, and it is much safer.

But if you are in a lot of debt from law school, it will still be hard to make it in CA. Your income tax rate is one of the highest of any state. Gas and food and things are definitely more expensive here too. I was in VA last November and was amazed by how much cheaper everything was in comparison to CA.

At any rate, it does seem as though things are starting to turn around over here. Slowly, but there are some signs of life.

[ScrabbleChamp]

In the SF Bay Area, if you want to buy ah house somewhere you won't get shot (see: Oakland, Richmond), you are going to pony up in excess of $1 mil. Doing all the math, if you put down 20% to avoid PMI (which, of course requires having $200k liquid), your mortgage payment is going to be near $6k/month when you include property taxes and the like. And, your $160k/year, after federal and state taxes, is going to be closer to $106k, or $8900 a month, and that is assuming you pay nothing at all for medical/dental/401k, etc... On top of that, if you have any debt (CC, student loans, whatever), that $8900 a month keeps going down drastically. Even if you have no debt, you'd not be able to afford a nice home in a nice neighborhood, as your income to payment ratio would be way too high. And, don't forget the state and/or county sales tax on pretty much everything you buy, as well. I know for Los Altos, the current county tax rate is 9.25%, which is a joke.

In summary, if you have no problem making $160k (if you can even get a job that pays that much) a year, living like you are a freshman in college, and don't have nor want a family in the distant future, sure, CA might work out. Or, if you want to live in Fresno, Bakersfield, Modesto, Stockton, you'll probably be fine. However, if you want to live in a "major" city, you can pull it off, but that $160k in CA won't get you nearly as far as a lower salary in a lot of other markets.

I don't know anything about Cali's CoL, but is there really nothing in between a million dollar home and living like a freshman, especially post-recession?

I may have been using a bit of hyperbole... However, if you are making $160k/year, you wouldn't expect to be living in a 1 bedroom apartment... I did a quick search on apartment guide for places in Cupertino, CA (SF Bay Area, about 35 miles south of SF), and you are looking about $2000 for a 1 bed/1 bath apartment that is 750 sq ft, $2600 for a 2 bed/2 bath that is 1100 sq ft, or $3000 for a 3 bed/2 bath that is 1300 sq ft.

Update: I just did a quick search for real estate for sale in Cupertino, as well. The CHEAPEST 4 bedroom I could find was $835,000 and it was for an attached condo. The CHEAPEST 3 bedroom that came up was $719,000, but was a tiny (1000 sq ft) house with no lot and only a 1 car garage.

[Fresh]

I may have been using a bit of hyperbole... However, if you are making $160k/year, you wouldn't expect to be living in a 1 bedroom apartment... I did a quick search on apartment guide for places in Cupertino, CA (SF Bay Area, about 35 miles south of SF), and you are looking about $2000 for a 1 bed/1 bath apartment that is 750 sq ft, $2600 for a 2 bed/2 bath that is 1100 sq ft, or $3000 for a 3 bed/2 bath that is 1300 sq ft.

Update: I just did a quick search for real estate for sale in Cupertino, as well. The CHEAPEST 4 bedroom I could find was $835,000 and it was for an attached condo. The CHEAPEST 3 bedroom that came up was $719,000, but was a tiny (1000 sq ft) house with no lot and only a 1 car garage.

wow
thanks for the helpful perspective

[Squishy]

I think it's crazy to think you'll get shot in Oakland without considering where you are in it. Furthermore, I think it would really suck living in Cupertino vs. Oakland. But then again, I live in Oakland...so.

[tallboone]

You don't have to buy a house:
http://www.sftu.org/rentcontrol.html

[FlanAl]

However, if you want to live in a "major" city, you can pull it off, but that $160k in CA won't get you nearly as far as a lower salary in a lot of other markets.

I'll give you the above point but you have to take a few things into consideration. At $8900 a month if you live in one of your one bedroom apartments you are putting away a lot of money in savings or investments. You could do something like this before you go to buy a house. If the average age of the law school grad is like 25-27 you probably don't want to be buying a house at that age anyways(not because it isn't the prudent choice but because you're in you mid twenties and the prudent choice isn't always as obvious). AND if you and your spouse meet in law school you're combined income should be pretty sweet.

Sooooo if you are smart about your first few years our and you are getting paid market I think you can definitely survive in california. In fact I know quite a few attorneys from some really nice southern california neighborhoods.

Update: I just did a quick search for real estate for sale in Cupertino, as well. The CHEAPEST 4 bedroom I could find was $835,000 and it was for an attached condo. The CHEAPEST 3 bedroom that came up was $719,000, but was a tiny (1000 sq ft) house with no lot and only a 1 car garage.

Focusing on the Bay area probably isn't the best idea. Isn't overall like the most expensive place in the country outside of NYC?

[thechee]

Also, remember that TX doesn't have a state income tax, whereas CA has one of the highest income tax rates in the US. Also, Sales tax in TX: 6.25%. In CA, it's 8.25%-10.75%.

CA's deficit looks that much more embarrassing vs. TX when you look at how much more CA rakes in in state taxes.

[lisjjen]

I think it's crazy to think you'll get shot in Oakland without considering where you are in it. Furthermore, I think it would really suck living in Cupertino vs. Oakland. But then again, I live in Oakland...so.

I have friends who live in Oakland and they do quite well for themselves. They're both dentists. It just depends on where in Oakland you live.

[Ty Webb]

I've never understood why people think things like "Well, the state's bond rating just got downgraded by Moody's, so even though all my friends and family are there and I grew up there, maybe I'll go to Texas or New York instead."

I was born in CA, I grew up in CA, I went to college and law school in CA, and I never for a moment seriously considered working anywhere else. I'd have preferred to not get a firm job than to move across the country from all of my friends and family.

You've obviously never tried the waters in the South Carolina legal market.

[lisjjen]

I've never understood why people think things like "Well, the state's bond rating just got downgraded by Moody's, so even though all my friends and family are there and I grew up there, maybe I'll go to Texas or New York instead."

I was born in CA, I grew up in CA, I went to college and law school in CA, and I never for a moment seriously considered working anywhere else. I'd have preferred to not get a firm job than to move across the country from all of my friends and family.

You've obviously never tried the waters in the South Carolina legal market.

You are correct sir. I have not, and neither has SBL. I think he made that pretty explicit.

Though I must admit, I am at a loss for what this means.

[Ty Webb]

I've never understood why people think things like "Well, the state's bond rating just got downgraded by Moody's, so even though all my friends and family are there and I grew up there, maybe I'll go to Texas or New York instead."

I was born in CA, I grew up in CA, I went to college and law school in CA, and I never for a moment seriously considered working anywhere else. I'd have preferred to not get a firm job than to move across the country from all of my friends and family.

You've obviously never tried the waters in the South Carolina legal market.

You are correct sir. I have not, and neither has SBL. I think he made that pretty explicit.

Though I must admit, I am at a loss for what this means.

The point was - it's a lot easier to justify "staying home" when there are actually some jobs at home. I'd love to live and work in the three decent places in South Carolina, but there are like 12 jobs.

[ScrabbleChamp]

However, if you want to live in a "major" city, you can pull it off, but that $160k in CA won't get you nearly as far as a lower salary in a lot of other markets.

I'll give you the above point but you have to take a few things into consideration. At $8900 a month if you live in one of your one bedroom apartments you are putting away a lot of money in savings or investments. You could do something like this before you go to buy a house. If the average age of the law school grad is like 25-27 you probably don't want to be buying a house at that age anyways(not because it isn't the prudent choice but because you're in you mid twenties and the prudent choice isn't always as obvious). AND if you and your spouse meet in law school you're combined income should be pretty sweet.

Sooooo if you are smart about your first few years our and you are getting paid market I think you can definitely survive in california. In fact I know quite a few attorneys from some really nice southern california neighborhoods.

Update: I just did a quick search for real estate for sale in Cupertino, as well. The CHEAPEST 4 bedroom I could find was $835,000 and it was for an attached condo. The CHEAPEST 3 bedroom that came up was $719,000, but was a tiny (1000 sq ft) house with no lot and only a 1 car garage.

Focusing on the Bay area probably isn't the best idea. Isn't overall like the most expensive place in the country outside of NYC?

Right, but, my numbers were best case scenario with regards to salary. If you are making $160k, you should be putting away money for retirement, say 10%. Then, figure you have the average student debt (probably more given you have a BigLaw job in CA) of $80k, which is about $1000/month repayment. Now you are down to $6600, which is still a lot of money, but when you factor in the costs associated with living in CA (higher prices on pretty much everything), you may not have much left over. Assuming you have $1000 in monthly expenses (car insurance, car payment, cable, internet, etc...), and a $2000 rent payment, you are down to $3600 of savings a month. To afford a nice house in the Bay Area, you'd have to save every dime you have, after paying loans, rent, expenses, etc... for 5 years before you'd even be able to afford a downpayment on a home. Sure, it's possible, but, even if you can afford the down payment in 5 years, will you be able to afford the housing payment of about $6000?

I'm not saying it is impossible, just saying, if you think big picture, there are a lot of markets where you can make a lot less and live a lot better.

[jtemp320]

I think it's crazy to think you'll get shot in Oakland without considering where you are in it. Furthermore, I think it would really suck living in Cupertino vs. Oakland. But then again, I live in Oakland...so.

I have friends who live in Oakland and they do quite well for themselves. They're both dentists. It just depends on where in Oakland you live.

This is correct - people are throwing some crazy things out there. As someone who has lived in very nice parts of Northern and Southern California most of my life here is the truth: in West LA or SF you are looking at COL that is considerably less then NY but more then basically anywhere else in the country. When people talk about home prices in Silicon Valley please recognize thats equivalent to saying DC is too expensive to live like anything but a freshman because median home prices in Bethesda are so high...

There are nice areas around all of the major markets in California where one can live very nicely on $160,000 a year plus raises/bonuses minus taxes. You might feel more middle class then you would living on the kind of a salary in secondary markets but then again you'll be living in California which IMO is worth it.

So my point is, it's not crazy to want to work in California - its a wonderful place to live. On the other hand from everything I read it is a tough legal market - so I'd be concerned about USC at sticker.

[lisjjen]

So my point is, it's not crazy to want to work in California - its a wonderful place to live. On the other hand from everything I read it is a tough legal market - so I'd be concerned about USC at sticker.

As would I. Which is why if they don't match my scholarship at UT, this is going to be an awfully short trip.

[Reedie]

I think it's crazy to think you'll get shot in Oakland without considering where you are in it. Furthermore, I think it would really suck living in Cupertino vs. Oakland. But then again, I live in Oakland...so.

Yeah, blanket condemnations of Oakland are one of the ways you can tell someone doesn't know what they are talking about. They either a) don't know shit about the Bay Area because they haven't spent much time there or b) are overly frightened of neighborhoods they don't know, sort of like people who live in Manhattan and think of Brooklyn as if it were a 16th century navigational map with "thar be dragons there" scrawled over the poorly known sections. I've got friends and family living in the Bay Area. Just as an example, one of my friends works as a software developer at Apple (not making 160k, probably not even close), his wife works in a law office (not a lawyer or a pralegal), and they live in a nice apartment in a quiet part of San Francisco and manage just fine. My cousin and his girlfriend are both 1st year associates (Berkeley grads), she works at Gibbson Dunn iirc and he works at a lit boutique. They have a BEAUTIFUL apartment with an amazing view in the City. So yes, you can live in California and be ok making less 160k a year or less. All of the above are paying a premium to live in the City, but seem satisfied by the tradeoff.

The Bay Area is probably harder to afford overall than Los Angeles, where I lived for several years making no more than 20k a year. Downtown is more affordable than the westside (where I lived). The main thing is that you need to think very carefully about how you are going to commute. Now, if you want to live in San Francisco or Los Angeles and raise a family in a spacious home, that is going to be more challenging if your income isn't quite high. That's true in every comparable city in the country. You can live in Sacramento, or the Inland Empire and find more affordable housing, but of course you will likely not make as much and there are negative tradeoffs.

As far as Texas goes, I find the Texas fanboy stuff indicative mainly of how much people behave like mindless sheep. When something is going well everyone thinks "OMG, it must be brilliantly managed it will be awesome forever!" When something is going poorly "OMG, that is a failed state and it will be awful forever!" Sort of like when people convince themselves that housing will always boom.

Texas is a big state with a strong economy. It's biggest strength is in energy markets, particularly oil. For quite some time oil has been going up in price, and so long as oil continues to be profitable that sector of the Texas economy should remain strong (until they run out). My impression is that oil is even more important for the high end legal work in Texas than it is in the overall Texas economy. So for Texas biglaw firm Y to continue to grow texas bigoil corp C needs to continue to need more legal work. It seems doubtful to me that oil is going to vanish anytime soon, but how much it will grow is just guesswork.

Texas economy, of course, isn't just oil. Texas does have a tech economy, for example. But that technology market does NOT compete with California, and I don't see much reason to believe it's going to. Facebook didn't go to Houston. It went to the Southbay because a) that's where the other tech startups are b) that's where the tech venture capital is and c) (HUGELY IMPORTANT) that's where the engineering talent is. Texas' main offering for tech companies is a better tax structure, but that doesn't appear to be worth it for google, Apple, Cisco, Oracle, or the other California based tech companies to leave. Texas--as a state--has a very low educational attainment level per capita and just doesn't have the human capital California has. Maybe that will change, but personally I doubt it.

What Texas does have, that the big cities in California can't get is cheap land (and relatedly, cheap taxes). The major cities in California have basically hit the geographic barriers (oceans and mountains) that constrain their growth. Texas continues to be able to offer cheap land to incoming companies even in its larger cities. My guess is that will continue until the traffic gets so choked up that development needs to turn inward (as it has in Los Angeles).

So, what does that mean for the bottom line of long term growth? Nobody here knows for sure. The common idea that Texas is poised to launch into the atmosphere and will continue to grow forever like it has in the recent past doesn't have adequate foundation. Nor does the idea that California is suddenly doomed (mainly because the political structure of the California government sucks badly). But that doesn't mean that the Texas economy won't continue to grow and with it the Texas firms. The biggest argument for Texas is probably that it offers the kind of urban life most lawyers seem to want at a cost of living below most other similar areas. But, before you invest in that, remember that was true of California at one time as well. As Texas continues to grow that cost of living will be tough to maintain, especially if Texas wants to attract the kind of talent California currently has.

As a side note I think it's interesting how much less attention people seem to pay to the boom that has been going on in the New South for maybe three decades now than Texas. Living here in the triangle, I see a lot of potential for continued growth. But, unlike Texas, the New South doesn't appear to have developed one or more legal centers that really go out and recruit top talent from all over the country. My guess it that will change, but who knows?

Best of luck.

[Borhas]

You know why I'm asking.

I know it's bad, but how bad is bad. I'm trying to make a decision between working in Texas or working in California. I know Texas is booming and Cali is shrivelling, but I've had a love affair with SoCal since I was a boy. The responsible thing to do would be to suck it up and go to UT. What I want to do is just go to USC and be done with it.

I liken it to the year 1800. Texas is the 13 colonies and California is Britain. One is rough around the edges but with exploding potential, while the other is refined but broken. [I know the analogy is imperfect. I'm a history major]

California is awesome

Texas is not

I moved here from Virginia, and on average Virginians are more prosperous ($$) than either CA or TX (though there are probably more super rich people in CA than VA or TX, while the latter have stronger middle classes). (Mostly because VA lives off Fed spending in DC) But the wealthy parts of VA suck (Northern Virginia suburbs) while the wealthy parts of CA are awesome (San Francisco, San Diego, bourgie parts of LA, Orange County).


Think about the things that make America competitive in the world.
Agriculture, Technology, Finance, Weapons

CA has the most of #1, and #2
#3 fucked up BIG TIME (way to go NY)
#4 is spread out across the country (a lot in the South)


One thing that TX does have though, is a responsive state government. The CA constitution is fucked. I may not like TX policies, but I think Texans like them and that's big. CA is beholden to old people and their hatred of property taxes, as well as the small % of extremist Republicans (partly due to terrible gerrymandering by Dems).

[ScrabbleChamp]

Sorry if I offended the residents/defenders or Oakland... but, you have to admit, the city, as a whole, is incredbily dangerous. I don't care who you are, having a murder rate that is 3.5 times the national average and a violent crime rate that ranks the city 3rd in the country for all cities with more than 100,000 people is pretty bad. Sure, there are some parts of Oakland that are incredibly nice, but, as a whole, the city is dangerous. There was one car theft for every 40 people in the city... I'm sure you can live nicely there, and I enjoy visiting certain parts. I was simply making a valid statement that applies (statistically) to the whole city.

And, as I said in my first part, I'm taking the question from the prespective of married guy with kids, which is not the same for everyone. I would not be happy with a nice apartment in the city. I need a yard, large house, etc...

[sandaltan]

i could live like an emperor in CA on 160k/year.

then again, i dont have the ol ball and chain kids/wife.

[seriously????]

id go with socal. the 160k might not go as far as other places, but you are forgetting that you will surely get discovered by hollywood, and make a few hundred k for a solid role as an attorney in an epic film

in all serious, it is almost downright tragic how arguably the coolest state in our union is so screwed

[ScrabbleChamp]

id go with socal. the 160k might not go as far as other places, but you are forgetting that you will surely get discovered by hollywood, and make a few hundred k for a solid role as an attorney in an epic film

in all serious, it is almost downright tragic how arguably the coolest state in our union is so screwed

CA is the "coolest state in our Union"? Really? Aside from the weather, what is so great about CA? Weapons laws suck, tax is too high, COL sucks, traffic bites, the beaches are much better on the east coast... I don't know which state is the "coolest", but I surely wouldn't say CA is.

[Borhas]

it's definitely CA

because it has some of the best things in every single category of awesome things

sure Florida has better beaches, but it doesn't have mountains, skiing for example

[mr_toad]

Weapons laws and cost of living do not factor into my cool index. Cool is a feeling, whereas scrabblechamp is worried about logistics, as he should do with family, hopes for home ownership and security, etc. But every time in Cali I think I would be willing to accept LESS in order to live there because it just feels... cool. I like being there, I like "me" more there. I think the downsides are worth it, if indeed they are as bad as they are made out to be. But to each his own.

Edit: FWIW, I'm like the least cool person out there. But I'm still attracted to the coolness of Cali. But maybe since I'm not cool I'm making a massive miscalculation regarding the actual cool available in California. We shall see.

[Stringer Bell]

The only thing worse than working 80-hour weeks at a law firm is doing so in a city you don't know surrounded by strangers and 3,000 miles from the people you love. TLSers have weird priorities.

Making friends in LS and work isn't impossible. If someone decides making 160k in another part of the country is better than 50k or unemployment where they are from, I wouldn't go so far as to say that's having weird priorities.

[notanumber]

Sorry if I offended the residents/defenders or Oakland... but, you have to admit, the city, as a whole, is incredbily dangerous. I don't care who you are, having a murder rate that is 3.5 times the national average and a violent crime rate that ranks the city 3rd in the country for all cities with more than 100,000 people is pretty bad. Sure, there are some parts of Oakland that are incredibly nice, but, as a whole, the city is dangerous. There was one car theft for every 40 people in the city... I'm sure you can live nicely there, and I enjoy visiting certain parts. I was simply making a valid statement that applies (statistically) to the whole city.

And, as I said in my first part, I'm taking the question from the prespective of married guy with kids, which is not the same for everyone. I would not be happy with a nice apartment in the city. I need a yard, large house, etc...

Deciding where to live based upon citywide murder statistics is sloppy. The overall murder rate in the U.S. is comparatively high, does that make living in Palo Alto a dangerous endeavor?

Oakland is really only dangerous if you're a gang banger or if you live in the heart of Ghost Town or parts of East Oakland. But please, keep perpetuating the "Oakland is terrible" sentiment, and I'll still be able to afford a decent house in a good BART-able neighborhood of Oakland when I graduate.